User Tag List

Page 1 of 11 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 12 of 129

Thread: The Paradigm Shift Requires Clarity About the Moral Baseline: Veganism

  1. #1
    Stephen Best barts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,027
    Threads
    1290
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    84
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    The Paradigm Shift Requires Clarity About the Moral Baseline: Veganism

    This article is reprinted with the permission of Prof. Gary L. Francione and with our thanks.

    If we are ever going to see a paradigm shift, we have to be clear about how we want the present paradigm to shift.

    We must be clear that veganism is the unequivocal baseline of anything that deserves to be called an “animal rights” movement. If “animal rights” means anything, it means that we cannot morally justify any animal exploitation; we cannot justify treating animals as human resources, however “humane” that treatment may be.

    We must stop thinking that people will find veganism “daunting” and that we have to promote something less than veganism. If we explain the moral ideas and the arguments in favor of veganism clearly, people will understand. They may not all go vegan immediately; in fact, most won’t. But we should always be clear about the moral baseline. If someone wants to do less as an incremental matter, let that be her/his decision, and not something that we advise to do. The baseline should always be clear. We should never be promoting “happy” or “humane” exploitation as morally acceptable.

    The notion that we should promote “happy” or “humane” exploitation as “baby steps” ignores that welfare reforms do not result in providing significantly greater protection for animal interests; in fact, most of the time, animal welfare reforms do nothing more than make animal exploitation more economically productive by focusing on practices, such as gestation crates, the electrical stunning of chickens, or veal crates, that are economically inefficient in any event. Welfare reforms make animal exploitation more profitable by eliminating practices that are economically vulnerable. For the most part, those changes would happen anyway and in the absence of animal welfare campaigns precisely because they do rectify inefficiencies in the production process. And welfare reforms make the public more comfortable about animal exploitation. The “happy” meat/animal products movement is clear proof of that.

    We would never advocate for “humane” or “happy” human slavery, rape, genocide, etc. So, if we believe that animals matter morally and that they have an interest not only in not suffering but in continuing to exist, we should not be putting our time and energy into advocating for “humane” or “happy” animal exploitation.

    Welfare reforms and the whole “happy” exploitation movement are not “baby steps.” They are big steps–in a seriously backward direction.

    There are some animal advocates who say that to maintain that veganism is the moral baseline is objectionable because it is “judgmental,” or constitutes a judgment that veganism is morally preferable to vegetarianism and a condemnation that vegetarians (or other consumers of animal products) are “bad” people. Yes to the first part; no to the second. There is no coherent distinction between flesh and other animal products. They are all the same and we cannot justify consuming any of them. To say that you do not eat flesh but that you eat dairy or eggs or whatever, or that you don’t wear fur but you wear leather or wool, is like saying that you eat the meat from spotted cows but not from brown cows; it makers no sense whatsoever. The supposed “line” between meat and everything else is just a fantasy–an arbitrary distinction that is made to enable some exploitation to be segmented off and regarded as “better” or as morally acceptable. This is not a condemnation of vegetarians who are not vegans; it is, however, a plea to those people to recognize their actions do not conform with a moral principle that they claim to accept and that all animal products are the result of imposing suffering and death on sentient beings. It is not a matter of judging individuals; it is, however, a matter of judging practices and institutions. And that is a necessary component of ethical living.

    If we take the position that an assessment that veganism is morally preferable to vegetarianism is not possible because we are all “on our own journey,” then moral assessment becomes completely impossible or is speciesist. It is impossible because if we are all “on our own journey,” then there is nothing to say to the racist, sexist, anti-semite, homophobe, etc. If we say that those forms of discrimination are morally bad, but, with respect to animals, we are all “on our own journey” and we cannot make moral assessments about, for instance, dairy consumption, then we are simply being speciesist and not applying the same moral analysis to nonhumans that we apply to the human context.

    When we discuss veganism with vegetarians or other consumers of animal products, we should never convey the message that we think that they are “bad” people. We should instead focus on how any form of animal exploitation is inconsistent with the moral principle that they themselves claim to hold: namely, that animals are members of the moral community and that the imposition of suffering and death on any member of that community–human or nonhuman–requires a compelling justification. And whatever constitutes a compelling justification, taste preferences, conveneience, fashion sense, etc., do not.

    Finally, we should always be clear that animal exploitation is wrong because it involves speciesism. And speciesism is wrong because, like racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism, classism, and all other forms of human discrimination, speciesism involves violence inflicted on members of the moral community where that infliction of violence cannot be morally justified. But that means that those of us who oppose speciesism necessarily oppose discrimination against humans. It makes no sense to say that speciesism is wrong because it is like racism (or any other form of discrimination) but that we do not have a position about racism. We do. We should be opposed to it and we should always be clear about that.

    Veganism is about nonviolence. It is about not engaging in harm to other sentient beings; to oneself; and to the environment upon which all beings depend for life. In my view, the animal rights movement is, at its core, a movement about ending violence to all sentient beings. It is a movement that seeks fundamental justice for all. It is an emerging peace movement that does not stop at the arbitrary line that separates humans from nonhumans. Changing a hierarchical paradigm of pervasive exploitation that has dominated for millenia requires a great deal of hard work. And that hard work requires clarity.

    ******

    If you are not vegan, please consider going vegan. It’s a matter of nonviolence. Being vegan is your statement that you reject violence to other sentient beings, to yourself, and to the environment, on which all sentient beings depend.

    The World is Vegan! If you want it.

    Gary L. Francione
    Professor, Rutgers University

    ©2012 Gary L. Francione

    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire

  2. #2
    Volcanic Erupter lsbskins1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    South-Western Virginia
    Posts
    7,199
    Threads
    103
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I can respect the power of will that it takes to live vegan and I can respect the sentiment behind the ideals,
    but that does not mean that I agree with the position. The natural state of the human, in evolutionary terms, is that of omnivore. We are build to eat vegitable and animal matter. That modern humans, living in industrialized societies, eat excessive amounts of meat is not in doubt but that is an argument for moderation, not exclusion. Part of the reason some humans have come to the place where they can reason in the abstract about the ideal of non-violence is because of the bain enlargement fostered by their ancesters eating cooked protien. The unsaturated fats contained in higher concentrations in warm blooded mammals and fish are "brain food", and when you cook 'em, you get better energy efficiency from the same caloric intake.

    All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard -
    Tell me, could that be you?

    John Kay

  3. #3
    Stephen Best barts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,027
    Threads
    1290
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    84
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: lsbskins1 View Post
    I can respect the power of will that it takes to live vegan and I can respect the sentiment behind the ideals, but that does not mean that I agree with the position.
    Before submitting any of my own views for consideration, let me offer Francione's own words.



    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire

  4. #4
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    central Illinois
    Posts
    8,222
    Threads
    124
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So be good for goodness' sake. Taking it a bit far it seems if evolution selects favorably for moral actions by increased fecundity. At a given place and time advantage lies with the vegan and other times with the carnivorous. Survival to breeding success is better served by being flexible isn't it?

    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  5. #5
    Volcanic Erupter lsbskins1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    South-Western Virginia
    Posts
    7,199
    Threads
    103
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: minorwork View Post
    So be good for goodness' sake. Taking it a bit far it seems if evolution selects favorably for moral actions by increased fecundity. At a given place and time advantage lies with the vegan and other times with the carnivorous. Survival to breeding success is better served by being flexible isn't it?
    Yeah, look at bears. They range from the herbivore, to the omnivore, to the carnivore. The extremes are the most endangered. The carnivorous polar bear and the herbivorous panda bear are just barely hanging on, while black and brown bears, the omnivores, while reduced in numbers, are not nearly as close to being gone.

    All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard -
    Tell me, could that be you?

    John Kay

  6. #6
    Stephen Best barts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,027
    Threads
    1290
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    84
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Perhaps comparing human beings who live for the most part on domesticated plants and animals with wild animals that don't may be a faulty approach.

    I don't doubt that an argument can be made refuting Francione's position. I, in fact, find his reasoning morally wanting, and I'm a vegan. But, I do doubt that appealing to evolutionary theory, however, or what human beings as omnivores are biologically able to eat in any way refutes Francione.

    That you can do something doesn't entail that you should. As for survival of the fittest (which means reproductive fitness), choosing a vegan diet does not decrease fecundity, and, in fact, because it is generally a healthier choice, perhaps it increases it.

    Just sayin', but I'm not sure looking to bears for human moral and dietary guidance is well advised.

    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire

  7. #7
    Intelligent Designer
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    4,734
    Threads
    70
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: barts View Post
    [I] Finally, we should always be clear that animal exploitation is wrong because it involves speciesism. And speciesism is wrong because, like racism, sexism, homophobia, antisemitism, classism, and all other forms of human discrimination, speciesism involves violence inflicted on members of the moral community where that infliction of violence cannot be morally justified.

    Gary L. Francione
    Professor, Rutgers University

    ©2012 Gary L. Francione
    Mr. Francione is begging the question here. He says something is wrong (speciesism) because something associated with it (violence) is wrong; he compares speciesism to other -isms but fails to provide the basis by which he finds those "isms" immoral; and then refers to a lack of "moral justification" without telling us the basis by which any action can be discerned as morally justified or not. A couple of questions need to be answered, otherwise the dialogue is nothing but rhetoric.

    (1) What system of morality is Francione referring to?

    (2) Why should I adopt it?

    Rules For Conservatives

    They don't know what evidence for intelligent design would look like, but they know such evidence has never been observed!

  8. #8
    Stephen Best barts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,027
    Threads
    1290
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    84
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Meleagar View Post
    Mr. Francione is begging the question here. He says something is wrong (speciesism) because something associated with it (violence) is wrong; he compares speciesism to other -isms but fails to provide the basis by which he finds those "isms" immoral; and then refers to a lack of "moral justification" without telling us the basis by which any action can be discerned as morally justified or not. A couple of questions need to be answered, otherwise the dialogue is nothing but rhetoric.

    (1) What system of morality is Francione referring to?

    (2) Why should I adopt it?
    I'll try to clarify what, I think, Professor Francione is saying, and it's not the fallacy of "begging the question."

    Implicit in Francione's view is the notion that violence that cannot be morally justified is wrong. You may disagree. All the "isms" Francione refers to are supported, often, with violence. As, not infrequently, is speciesism. Francione does present a "moral justification"; it is the idea that "sentient" beings should be afforded by humans moral standing. You may disagree.

    I suggest, however, that none of this is what's referred to as "begging the question" which is entailed in a statement like "God is real because the Bible says so." Francione is not guilty of that error.

    As for why should you adopt it? Unless you are of the view that animals ought to be afforded rights, Francione is not suggesting you should, it seems to me. Should you make the choice to do the least harm to other living things, other people, animals, and the environment and to be as compassionate as you can by choosing a vegan diet, I'm sure Francione would approve.

    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire

  9. #9
    Lobotomized Angry Citizen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    11,114
    Threads
    182
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: barts View Post
    Perhaps comparing human beings who live for the most part on domesticated plants and animals with wild animals that don't may be a faulty approach.

    I don't doubt that an argument can be made refuting Francione's position. I, in fact, find his reasoning morally wanting, and I'm a vegan. But, I do doubt that appealing to evolutionary theory, however, or what human beings as omnivores are biologically able to eat in any way refutes Francione.

    That you can do something doesn't entail that you should. As for survival of the fittest (which means reproductive fitness), choosing a vegan diet does not decrease fecundity, and, in fact, because it is generally a healthier choice, perhaps it increases it.

    Just sayin', but I'm not sure looking to bears for human moral and dietary guidance is well advised.
    Please outline for me the reason why animals have a greater right to life than plants.

    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir, I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."


    -- Stephen Crane

  10. #10
    Stephen Best barts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,027
    Threads
    1290
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    84
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Angry Citizen View Post
    Please outline for me the reason why animals have a greater right to life than plants.
    In my view, the notion of a greater or lesser right to life for plants or animals has no meaning.

    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire

  11. #11
    Lobotomized Angry Citizen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    11,114
    Threads
    182
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Then you agree plants have a right to life, and therefore it is equally immoral to eat plants as it is to eat animals?

    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir, I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."


    -- Stephen Crane

  12. #12
    Stephen Best barts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    10,027
    Threads
    1290
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    84
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Angry Citizen View Post
    Then you agree plants have a right to life, and therefore it is equally immoral to eat plants as it is to eat animals?
    I think the notion of "right" to life is suspect in the context of a biosphere comprised of interdependent living things, which is how I look at it. We participate in a biosphere and depend upon it and all the living things that comprise it. How do you assign a human constructed hierarchy of "rights" in that regard? In my view, all living things are worthy of and ought to be shown by us moral consideration.

    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •