Is the Canadian Seal Hunt Worth It?

[barts]

Volconvo is pleased to publish with permission and open for debate the following from Andrew Lewin, founder of Speak Up for Blue.

Is the Canadian Seal Hunt Worth It?


SealHuntPic1.jpg

There are 5.9 million harp seals in Canada; not even 200,000 are hunted every year. Should people really try to stop the hunt when other animals are on the brink of extinction?

The Great Jacques-Yves Cousteau once said:

“We have to be logical. We have to aim our activity first to the endangered species. Those who are moved by the plight of the harp seal could also be moved by the plight of the pig – the way they are slaughtered is horrible.”

There is world wide pressure to end the Canadian Seal Hunt due to inhumane acts against harp seals.
Seals are hunted in Canada, Greenland, Norway and Russia, but Canada gets the most attention because they have the largest hunt. This subject really tears me apart because as a Canadian, I really love my country, but then I see pictures like this…as a Marine Ecologist and Average Joe, I feel hurt that my Country will allow it.

Check out how the video below where I breakdown the hunt and try to rationalize why it still goes on.



But emotions aside let us break down this hunt to see what the big deal is all about.
There are 5.9 million harp seals in Canada mostly concentrated in the St. Lawrence, Newfoundland, and the North. The quota is set at just over 200,000 seals allowed to be killed each year starting on November 15 until May 15 with most occurring in late March.

The seals are killed in 3 step process:

Striking – The seal is shot or clubbed in the head to knock it out;

Checking – The sealer must crush the cranium on both sides of the head to make sure the animal is either knocked out or dead; and,

Bleeding – The sealer must cut the arteries under each of the front flippers to bleed the seal out and then wait at least 1 minute before skinning it.

So that is the nasty part and the controversial one. Both sides of the debate brought in veterinarians and other experts to weigh as to whether the killing process was humane. One side said it is humans the other side says it isn’t.
So that doesn’t help the debate at all.

Another side of the argument for the seal hunt is that the seals are stopping the cod fishery from recovering. You may remember the Northwest cod fishery collapsed due to over fishing in the early 1990s largely attributed to the mismanagement of the government…mainly the politicians and industry.

But I digress…Both sides of the argument agree that the harp seal population is not responsible for the slow recovery of the cod population…we just know that we fished them too much and there aren’t many left…but that is a topic for another show…

So let’s go over what we've learned so far…we may or may not know whether the killing process is humane…perhaps we should ask the seals how they feel about it!

We also know that there is no good ecological reason why we should be killing the seals.

So there must be an economical reason for the seal hunt. Some hunters say that the proceeds of the seal hunt may contribute up to 30% of their annual salary. Okay, is it just me or does that not sound like a lot. Figuring that the total catch and bans on seal pelts over the past few years, the contributions should be around 20%. That sounds even worse. I’m sure there are better ways to make money.

I did a bit of research on what kind of products are sold from the seal hunt. Pelts are a big one, mostly sold to Greenland, Norway, and China. Some people in the fashion industry have been known to use seal pelts in the clothing line, like Versace. Other lines stay away from them. So I suggest you stay away from fashion brands that use seal pelts in their clothing line. but, seal fat oil is used in soaps and health products. So if you want to stop the seal hunt, check the labels on your soaps and health oils to make sure you are buying seal free products.

In my opinion, I don’t really think there is a real need to hunt seals, especially the way it’s done, but then again I don’t think I would like the way cows and pigs are slaughtered either.

What do you think of the Seal Hunt? Do you think there is still a valid reason to keep the hunt going? Let us know.

[Muckraker]

Objectively, it seems to me seal hunting is a convenient diversionary tactic for government and media, and a whipping boy for the meat industry and the masses--and we all eat it up.

People want to know what goes on in the world--as long as that knowledge isn't inconvenient. People want to love animals--as long as they are the convenient ones. People want to feel something and they want those stoked feelings directed at convenient targets. People want to support nature and actively boycott--by not purchasing goods they wouldn't purchase anyway.

The meat industry doesn't want people poking around and seeing--knowing--anything about their core products. The meat industry doesn't like the self-employed taking business away from core-product factories. The meat industry wants people to witness kills that appear inhumane so as to provide a point of reference for the rare times they do have to deal with some seeing and knowing.

Government doesn't want to piss off a major industry--and source of cash. Government wants to appear environment-friendly. Government wants to appear like it can pass legislation and get something done. Government isn't too upset when attention is directed at something inconsequential.

The media loves it because it's sensational, great filler on slow days, and doesn't affect any of their biggest advertisers. And blood looks great on snow.


Sealing today serves all these purposes. It's the perfect target because everyone gains and nobody really cares about what is sacrificed for those gains. Seal-skin coats? Waterproof boots? Cheap Chinese dog-food? Fish-oil supplements? Nobody cares--aside from the self-employed crews that make a living off sealing. Nobody cares about them either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of animals--especially the cute fuzzy ones. But the seals are wild, the numbers are low, the kills are kills, and the self-employed hunters aren't suited fat-cats atop skyscrapers of bone.

A sprinkling of people look at the egregious practices that should be looked at. A few people actively don't look because they don't want to see or know. Just about everyone else doesn't think about it or looks at the convenient scapegoat that's been agreed upon by all parties involved.

[Praxius]

Well then let's look at the reality of the situation:

The above steps are enforced in order to ensure that the seal is killed quickly and with as little suffering as possible.... the bleed out was one of the last steps enforced to ensure the animal is dead prior to processing.

Cows, Chickens, Pigs and other farm animals we kill and process every single day have less regulation involved in making sure they are killed in a manner that isn't going to leave them suffering or still alive.

The only reason why the seal hunt looks so brutal and bloody is because it's not done inside a barn or factory, it's out in the open for all to see and indeed it'll look very bloody and brutal when you see red blood on a white canvas of ice & snow.

But what something looks like, isn't exactly what is going on.

re: fishing stocks being wiped out

To be more specific, the Atlantic fishing industry suffered greatly during that time not so much from Canadian Government mismanagement of the fishing stocks, but from many European nations, Spain to exact, wiping out their own fishing stocks and then coming into Canadian waters (and just outside of Canadian Waters) to come after our stocks.

It got so bad that eventually the Canadian Government sent out war ships to thwart these fishing vessels:

Turbot War
Turbot War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"..... Canada claimed that European Union factory ships were illegally overfishing Greenland halibut, also known as Greenland turbot, on the Grand Banks, just outside Canada's declared 200 nautical mile (370 km) Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ)."

Canada did have an issue of not regulating their over fishing, but that was in the 70's / early 80's and by the time of the incidents in the 90's, regulations and oversight was already in place, although perhaps a little too late to save the Cod Industry.... however that was only a part of the problem.

"Canada was not alone in recognizing the growing value of the turbot, and foreign fishing fleets operating off the 200 NM EEZ were beginning to pursue the species in increasing numbers. By 1994, Canada and NAFO had tracked about 50 violations of boats crossing the 200 nautical mile (370 km) EEZ limit to fish illegally within Canadian waters, as well as recording use of illegal gear and overfishing outside Canadian waters."

Canadian regulations in the past played a role in the reduced fishing stocks of the Atlantic Coast, but by the 90's, many restrictions and protection acts were put in place, but having Spain continually putting a drain on the fish stocks off the Atlantic coast, along with a huge seal population that typically is only regulated by polar bears, there was a lot of work to do.

Just keep in mind that is wasn't just "We" Canadians who fished them out.

Why were Spanish vessels fishing so close to Canadian waters? Why were some even crossing into our waters to fish?

Logically it was due to Spanish Vessels already wiping out their own fish stocks with their lack of regulation and proper nets to allow developing, younger fish to slip through and continue to grow.

Canada isn't innocent in the matter, but the situation was not entirely just our fault.

You ask if what's done with the seal hunt is humane. The real question is, is it more humane than what is done to farm animals whom usually get some kind of blow to their heads and that's it? Many farm animals are not killed right out before they are sent off for processing, and thus, continue to suffer and even suffer more if they're still alive when they're still conscious when they're sliced apart and skinned.

After the seal is bled out, it is assured the animal is dead before anything is done to their body.

We also know that there is no good ecological reason why we should be killing the seals.

It's to help control the population, and while the amount hunted isn't even really a dent in their overall population, it's still better than letting them spawn out of control.

People are already complaining about Global Warming and how it's some how making it difficult for polar bears to adequately hunt seals and with a population of seals you noted above, you can't say that number of seals wouldn't have an impact on fish, since that's their primary food source.

Keep in mind that many other countries have similar types of animal culls to try and help control animal populations. Australia has a Kangaroo Cull to help keep their population at a manageable level due to them over populating.

Back in Nova Scotia, in the last few years there has been a huge boom to the deer population and many are wanting an increase to the amount of deer allowed to be hunted per season.

Besides the ecological aspect of culls and hunts, there is also the economic aspect.

It is true that the hunt doesn't bring in a lot of money for the nation, but for many communities in the various islands and remote areas of the Maritimes/Atlantic area, the seal hunt is an important source of income for many fishermen, their families and their communities, as well as a good food source.

I've heard the argument that Canada would be better off giving these people some other kind of work.

Like what?

A Call Centre?

There's certainly not much available for some of these communities and since there's the restrictions already in place for many fish stocks, this helps them a lot. Also keep in mind that fishing & hunting seals is pretty much all of what these people know how to do.

Preventing these people and these communities from hunting seals would only make these people even more dependent on federal support & money to keep them going, thus cost the government more in the long run.

Everybody keeps saying there are better ways, yet nobody ever bothers to suggest any logical solutions.

These people who hunt seals never made a lot of money in the first place, and with restrictions on fishing, they now make even less and being in that kind of environment, 20-30% of your yearly income is not just a lot, but also plays a huge impact on their quality of life if it wasn't there.

You talk about the pelts and the oils being sold, yet you forgot to mention the seal meat..... just about every single element of the seal is used in some fashion or another and very little of the seal goes to waste these days.

The Inuit actually consider the eyeballs quite the delicacy.

You've obviously picked your side in the argument by suggesting others to avoid these products to further try to wipe out the seal hunt, but again, you want something stopped completely but offer no solutions to the problems that would be created by your little quest.

You don't like the seal hunt due to your emotional response to what you see in photos and videos and hold a bit of a skewed perspective on the facts/details of the hunt, perhaps I do as well, but I'm also factoring the lively hood of many people, which you don't seem to care about.

Banning the seal hunt won't solve anything or make anything better except perhaps to make you feel good about yourself. You offered no solution to these people who depend on the hunt and seem to just expect them to no longer hunt, suffer a 30% drop in their yearly income and become even more poor and more dependent on government handouts.

Take a 20-30% pay cut and tell me you wouldn't notice a difference.

And then there's the chance that the seal over populate even further, become even more of a drain on the fish stocks, and then create even more problems for other fisherman who rely on the ocean for their lively hood..... which then starts to impact the environment even further.

In my opinion, the hunt should be increased, not decreased.

(continued....)

[Praxius]

(.... Continued)

In my opinion, I don’t really think there is a real need to hunt seals, especially the way it’s done, but then again I don’t think I would like the way cows and pigs are slaughtered either.

Exactly..... perhaps you should look into what is really done to farm animals at slaughter houses. There always seems to be a double standard between the Seal Hunt and the Farming Industry.

At the very least, at least Seals live a free life, out in the open, and actually stand a chance of escape.... farm animals are doomed to be slaughtered, with no freedom, no decent quality of life and zero chance of escaping their captivity.

And due to farmed animals being slaughtered behind closed doors, you can't always ensure they are being treated humanely or that regulations are being enforced.

The entire process of killing a seal is meant to make sure the seal dies quickly and suffers the least during the process, as well as ensures they are dead before being processed. Cows and pigs could only dream of such compassion.

Years ago I couldn't care either way if the seal hunt existed or not, but over the years, after seeing idiots like Paul McCartney posing on the ice with a white coat to help make the seal hunt look evil (even though White Coats have been illegal to hunt for decades) and other groups like PETA and the Sea Shepherds continually using emotional arguments backed with old video footage from the 70's/early 80's to show how brutal the hunt is, I felt there was a huge bias being presented, using information that was dated and no longer factual.

The EU's ban on seal products was all decided by this kind of mis-information and emotional appeal from these special interest groups and was done without any sort of open debate with real facts and studies to counter those baseless claims...... and since I hate groups and people who do this sort of crusade using very little facts and logic, I started to defend the seal hunt.

Seals are rats, they're seagulls, they're pigeons, they're an over-populating pest which by some people's claims, are not being properly regulated by their natural predator, the Polar Bear, due to lack of ice these days. So should they be left to just bloom out of control until they cause a real problem with other species of the sea?

What about the people who depend on the hunt?

What would you offer for them to do for work to replace this hunt?

You make the claim that both sides of the argument don't believe the seals are having an impact on fish stocks growing back to their normal size, yet if both sides agreed to this, where did this claim originate from?

It had to come from somewhere, and common sense would tell anybody that 6 million seals being mostly concentrated in one area would indeed have an impact on the fish population, since that's what they eat..... Fish.

The Canadian Government put heavy restrictions on how much fish can be fished, what kind can be fished and at what time of the year they're allowed to be fished. Seals don't have restrictions and they will eat whatever they want.

Nature has proven time and time again that if one species' population is not kept in check by their natural predator(s), their population will explode and they will then suck out all the food resources out of that area they are in, not only leading to that environment being destroyed on a number of levels, but that species will then slowly suffer and die off due to starvation. They will also impact any other species living in the same area, especially those who rely on the same food sources.

I would think a slow death from starvation would be worse than being killed quickly and swiftly.

You can try and boycott seal products all you want, but with the new deal Canada made with China to buy many seal products, such a boycott will most likely end up doing nothing and the seal hunt will continue on.

Sorry, but I have more concern over the treatment of animals we farm and slaughter commercially day in and day out, than what we do with a wild animal that's population continues to grow out of control.

The moment we actually look at how we treat the animals we farm and the moment we ensure they are treated more humanely than the seals, I'll then look towards the seal hunt and see what can be done to reduce it or make it more humane, but at this stage, seals are killed more humanely than probably any other animal on this planet.

What's done when someone hunts a deer, rabbit, duck, moose or any other wild animal?

They're shot, they usually run off for a few yards and left to die slowly or until the hunter finds them and then either shot again or have their neck broken, which even then may not even ensure they're dead. Most don't even bother to do that.

How about animals caught in snares and wire traps who are confined there with a leg tied up, whom typically end up starving to death or chewing off their leg in order to try and escape.

How humane is any of that?

And people think the Seals have it rough??

At least they're not pumped full of growth hormones and chemicals to make their meat tastier or doubles the size of their breasts like chickens for McDonald's McNuggets to save on money..... or stuck in a pin just slightly larger than they are for their entire life, wallowing in their own filth.

[barts]

Well then let's look at the reality of the situation:

The above steps are enforced in order to ensure that the seal is killed quickly and with as little suffering as possible...

Except that every study ever done about the seal hunt shows that the required method for killing is neither enforced nor, generally, followed. So widespread is the cruelty that there has never been an instance when an independent observer observed the seal hunt, even when escorted by Canadian government officials, that improper killing was not observed, never. Improper and cruel killing is not the exception, it is the rule.

That is the reality of the situation.

[barts]

Seals are rats, they're seagulls, they're pigeons, they're an over-populating pest which by some people's claims, are not being properly regulated by their natural predator, the Polar Bear, due to lack of ice these days. So should they be left to just bloom out of control until they cause a real problem with other species of the sea?

Seals, like all living beings in an ecosystem, are an integral part of the marine ecology. To label them as "pests" is biological and ecological nonsense. Indeed, much of the environmental degradation that now exists is because of this absurd approach to ecosystems.

There is no evidence, not a shred, that seals are causing problems with other species in the sea. Indeed, the evidence that we do have suggests that seals--grey seals--are facilitating the return of the cod. It is true that the Canadian government has tried to manufacture evidence to demonize seals, but despite its best and most corrupt efforts it has been unable to do so.

Nature has proven time and time again that if one species' population is not kept in check by their natural predator(s), their population will explode and they will then suck out all the food resources out of that area they are in, not only leading to that environment being destroyed on a number of levels, but that species will then slowly suffer and die off due to starvation. They will also impact any other species living in the same area, especially those who rely on the same food sources.

"Nature" has proven nothing of the sort. This view while almost ubiquitous is simply false, and is consequent of stunning levels of ignorance of how ecosystems function. Do population levels of species rise and fall? Of course. Does the role of species in ecosystems change over time? Of course. Do individuals die of starvation, disease, and predation? Of course. The same can be said of all human beings. But "overpopulation", "hyper-abundant populations" and other propaganda terms have nothing to do with ecology or ecosystems, they have to do with human beings rationalizing policies based on, among other things, ignorance, fear, and, often, politics. Nobody kills seals to spare them a natural death.

Populations do not "explode"; that is a propaganda term not an ecological one. As populations rise other changes take place that curb "exploding" populations. A population that rises rapidly will certainly fall rapidly as it reduces the carrying capacity of the ecosystem.

The only exception to this rule, and it is likely a short term one, is human beings. The reason, in part, for that is that human beings employ both energy and energy-based technology, other species do not.

[Praxius]

Except that every study ever done about the seal hunt shows that the required method for killing is neither enforced nor, generally, followed. So widespread is the cruelty that there has never been an instance when an independent observer observed the seal hunt, even when escorted by Canadian government officials, that improper killing was not observed, never. Improper and cruel killing is not the exception, it is the rule.

That is the reality of the situation.

Nice claim, got a source?

I do

FAQs: The Atlantic seal hunt
FAQs: The Atlantic seal hunt - Canada - CBC News

"Are seals skinned alive?

This is a frequent accusation levelled by hunt opponents. The International Fund for Animal Welfare says seals are routinely clubbed or shot and left to suffer on the ice until they're clubbed later.

The IFAW also charges that seals are often "skinned before being rendered fully unconscious" and said its observers found that few sealers check for a blinking reflex to confirm brain death before skinning begins. Similar "skinning alive" accusations have also been made by other groups, with many citing studies claiming that up to 45 per cent of seals are "skinned alive."

A 2002 report in the Canadian Veterinary Journal found that "the large majority of seals taken during this hunt … are killed in an acceptably humane manner."

This study found that 98 per cent of hunted seals it examined had been killed properly. The federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) cites this study among others as proof that the hunt opponents are wrong in their accusations of widespread cruelty.

Regarding the "skinning alive" charge, the DFO says appearances can be deceiving. "Sometimes a seal may appear to be moving after it has been killed," the DFO says. "However, seals have a swimming reflex that is active, even after death. This reflex falsely appears as though the animal is still alive when it is clearly dead — similar to the reflex in chickens."

Furthermore, the DFO says the club, or hakapik, used by many sealers is "an efficient tool" that kills "quickly and humanely." The Royal Commission on Seals and Sealing in Canada found that clubbing, when properly performed, is at least as humane as killing methods in commercial slaughterhouses. Opponents say clubbing often isn't "properly performed."

The federal government acknowledges that it has laid more than 200 charges against sealers since 1996, but argues that shows it's serious about enforcing its regulations."

The Seal Fishery:
The Seal Fishery.com - Canadian harp seal hunt - A pro perspective

"Skinning Alive

..... As any abattoir worker or hunter will explain to you, based upon experience, that skinning an animal is difficult enough when they are dead and near impossible to do when they are alive. Additionally, common sense tells you that when the value of the pelt depends on the quality (straight cuts improve the value) it makes no sense to ruin a pelt by trying to skin the animal alive. Unless, of course, you accept the animal rights fanatic's contention that sealers are some kind of barbarian sub-humans and not your neighbours who live in the villages and towns strung along shores of the North Atlantic Ocean, the Bearing and Arctic Seas. And the same condemnation applies to your neighbours who work in abattoirs, hunt or slaughter animals on farms throughout Canada, the USA and Europe. Not to mention those hired by the governments of the above-mentioned societies to kill animals determined to be pests by urban dwellers.

Study after study by reputable, international veterinarians have shown time after time that skinning alive is a lie perpetrated by so called independent studies conducted, paid for and written by the staff members of animal rights groups and never peer group reviewed for methodology or accuracy......"

Here's some facts on the commercial slaughter houses and what happens to farmed animals:

Animals need to get to the slaughterhouse before meeting their fate. Unfortunately, many of the animals endure unavoidable stresses on the wait and journey to slaughter. Fowl are crowded into cages, unruly or stationary steer and swine are shocked electrically to facilitate order and progressive movement through the abattoir. The crowding alone can cause stress to the animal. Then there are the variety of stunning methods employed by workers to ensure the animal is unconscious or stunned enough for the bleeding process. The most popular device to stun the animal is the captive bolt pistol. The animal, sheep, swine, goat, calve, cattle, horses, or mule, is led into a device which locks and positions the head to ensure that the animal is immobile prior to stunning. The captive bolt is then positioned on a specific area of the head and applied. The device penetrates the skull and enters the cranium causing catastrophic damage to the brain. The animal is then considered unconscious and is fit to be bled. The animal does not die as a direct result of the captive bolt, it dies as a result of the following bleeding. All animals slaughtered in commercial abattoirs ultimately die by exsanguination, which can last as long as 5-10 minutes. The skulls of the animals are too large to be crushed, so there is no palpation of the skull to ensure unconsciousness. There is also no blinking reflex test performed, mainly because the animal most assuredly will blink if the eye is touched until well after exsanguination. The captive bolt pistol is also just that, a pistol. It requires aim, technique, finesse, and proper training to utilize effectively on every animal.

Compare this with the open abattoir that is the commercial seal hunt. Seals are in their natural habitat prior to being killed. They are not crowded into cages, trapped, or transported. They are simply on the ice and in their natural environment as they always are. Sealers come to the seal, and not the other way around. The animals are under no visible stress. In fact, most seals are completely docile as they are used to being predators of the ice and ocean, not prey. The harp seal's skull is smaller and thinner than any cattle or pig or other livestock, and therefore easily crushed. High velocity bullets and rifles in the hands of an experienced sealer can quickly deliver a shot that causes more damage to the seal's skull (regardless of age) and brain matter than a captive bolt pistol on livestock. The humaneness of the hunt is exemplified even more so by usage of the hakapik. The hakapik is a fail safe weapon for killing seals, and was designed specifically as such. Seals less than one year old (which in turn have considerably thinner, weaker skulls) are rendered unconscious or "stunned" by a single blow. Multiple blows are often administered to completely destroy the skull, cerebrum, cerebellum, and sever the brain stem ensuring death before exsanguination, something a captive bolt cannot and does not do. Seals are bled, but the animal is undoubtedly dead before the process begins. It can then be argued that seals are slaughtered quicker and more effectively than livestock in commercial slaughterhouses. The skull and contents destroyed and palpated to verify that sufficient damage has been inflicted, the eye is touched to ensure that not even involuntary reflexes and/or electricity is active in the body, and they are bled for a minimum of one minute before being pelted. By comparison with commercial slaughter, the process is about as humane as any type of slaughter gets.

The Seal Fishery.com - Canadian harp seal hunt - A pro perspective

The DFO and Canadian Government even brought in the WWF to observe and review the seal hunt, which introduced a number of suggestions and regulations that are currently in place. The World Wildlife Fund has no issues with the seal hunt and I quote:

"....WWF-Canada has chosen to work with rural, northern and coastal residents to support conservation initiatives that are led and cooperatively championed by them and WWF. Contrary to certain beliefs, Inuit livelihoods in the Eastern Arctic have been disastrously impacted by campaigns against the East Coast seal hunt. WWF-Canada maintains an office in Iqaluit, working closely with the Inuit, and has received appreciation from the government of Nunavut for WWF’s willingness to stand by them on the issue of harvesting seals, which are so central to their culture.

Harp seals are at record high numbers, in excess of 5 million and the proposed total annual allowable catch is not a “threat to their long term survival”. WWF has consulted population experts on this matter, and the science-based management system upon which the quotas is established has been peer-reviewed. I would like to underline here that WWF has a strong track record of being an independent, non-partisan organization that takes positions based on good science and ethical conservation principles, not on what governments request....."

Seals and Sealing Network - View

Continued......

[Praxius]

..... Continued

Many of the following recommendations in this PDF file....

http://www.thesealfishery.com/files/...ortAug2005.pdf

...... developed by "The Independent Veterinarians’ Working Group" (IVWG) back in 2005 were adopted and accepted as the common practice for all hunters to abide by to ensure the seal is killed quickly and humanely.

Of course you're going to get a few bad apples who don't abide by laws and regulations, but since these bad apples exist in regular hunting as well as farms and slaughter houses, that point is moot..... and as noted in an above link, the government does punish those who do not abide by the rules when they are caught.

The above PDF also included involvement of the WWF, even though this area is not specifically related to them:

"The initial idea for this meeting, and the funding for meeting logistics and group
travel, were provided by the World Wildlife Fund* – Netherlands (WWF NL).
Although WWF is a conservation organization and traditionally does not engage in
animal welfare issues, WWF NL recognized the Canadian harp seal hunt as an
issue of concern and importance to many of its members."

^ So when you wish to speak of "The Reality of the Situation" it seems much of the above has not been addressed in your so-called reality.

[Praxius]

Seals, like all living beings in an ecosystem, are an integral part of the marine ecology. To label them as "pests" is biological and ecological nonsense. Indeed, much of the environmental degradation that now exists is because of this absurd approach to ecosystems.

Seals are about as useful to the environment as Penguins and Koala Bears.... they're cute, but don't do much except feed off of the resources other more useful animals use.

There is no evidence, not a shred, that seals are causing problems with other species in the sea. Indeed, the evidence that we do have suggests that seals--grey seals--are facilitating the return of the cod. It is true that the Canadian government has tried to manufacture evidence to demonize seals, but despite its best and most corrupt efforts it has been unable to do so.

That depends on who you ask:

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/CSAS/Csas/p...2010_071_e.pdf

^ As of 2010:

"An external review commissioned by the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans (Report of
the Eminent Panel on Seal Management 2001) dealt with predation effects in great detail, but other
types of hypothesized effects were not considered within the terms of reference of the review. The
results of the Eminent Panel stated that the interaction between seals, groundfish and other species
is complex and variable and that there was little evidence that seal predation was having a major
impact on most commercial fish stocks. Since the Eminent Panel submitted their findings,
considerable new research has been conducted on seal population size, changes in the natural
mortality of fish and the impacts of predation......"

^ This is in relation to Gray & Harp Seals and shows in great detail exactly how they are affecting the fish in those areas, and contradicts your claims of the Gray Seals somehow helping grow the population of Cod and other fish.

"In 4T, grey seals are considered a significant source of mortality for large cod (>35cm) and
other adult, bottom-dwelling fish. Southern Gulf cod occur in dense aggregations during
seasonal migrations, spawning and on the overwintering grounds. Satellite tracking
indicates that some grey seals, in particular males, forage where these aggregations occur.
Digestive tract samples from seals foraging on overwintering aggregations of cod contain a
relatively high proportion of cod (about 24% in males and 10% in females, based on
intestine samples), and a high proportion (58%) of these cod were greater than 35cm in
length. Seals are also considered a source of high mortality on winter skate and white hake,
species considered by Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada
(COSEWIC) to be at heightened risk of extirpation"

"Nature" has proven nothing of the sort. This view while almost ubiquitous is simply false, and is consequent of stunning levels of ignorance of how ecosystems function. Do population levels of species rise and fall? Of course. Does the role of species in ecosystems change over time? Of course. Do individuals die of starvation, disease, and predation? Of course. The same can be said of all human beings. But "overpopulation", "hyper-abundant populations" and other propaganda terms have nothing to do with ecology or ecosystems, they have to do with human beings rationalizing policies based on, among other things, ignorance, fear, and, often, politics. Nobody kills seals to spare them a natural death.

Interesting yet wrong..... to use humans as an example, when we require more resources for our survival, we expand and move to other areas that have resources for us.... the Human Population is extremely high and starvation and the death of those in our species does exist, due to the limitation of food and other resources in many areas of the planet where resources can not sustain the population in that area...... just turn on your TV and look at all the ads asking you to donate money to help feed the poor people in 3rd world nations.

When the resources disappear, the species that rely on those resources suffer and die off, or have to learn to adapt to new resources if they are lucky.

The reason why I used the term "Over-Population" was to reference the above which you agreed completely with.... when the population of a species exceeds the resources to sustain it, a good size of that species population will suffer and eventually die off if those resources can not be brought back in time. I didn't say they go extinct.

And when other species rely on the same resources, they end up suffering as well.

There is no ignorance involved, this is called common sense.

Culling of the seals isn't geared to protect them from suffering and dying from lack of resources, it's more to help protect many other species in that area from doing the same.

Populations do not "explode"; that is a propaganda term not an ecological one. As populations rise other changes take place that curb "exploding" populations. A population that rises rapidly will certainly fall rapidly as it reduces the carrying capacity of the ecosystem.

Which is a means of a population exploding..... when the population exceeds the resources that sustain it, the population will start to reduce, which you and I both seem to agree with..... what you seem to keep avoiding are the details on exactly how that population will be reduced, which is done exactly as I described in my previous post of starvation and death of a great % of the species until they're back to a level the resources can handle...... which expands beyond just that one species, but every other species that relies on those resources.

You haven't refuted anything I have said in this regard..... you're just trying to twist the words around to mean something slightly different.

[barts]

As I wrote,

So widespread is the cruelty that there has never been an instance when an independent observer observed the seal hunt, even when escorted by Canadian government officials, that improper killing was not observed, never. I

And you responded,

Nice claim, got a source?

I do

FAQs: The Atlantic seal hunt
FAQs: The Atlantic seal hunt - Canada - CBC News

[I]"Are seals skinned alive?

This is a frequent accusation levelled by hunt opponents. The International Fund for Animal Welfare says seals are routinely clubbed or shot and left to suffer on the ice until they're clubbed later.

The IFAW also charges that seals are often "skinned before being rendered fully unconscious" and said its observers found that few sealers check for a blinking reflex to confirm brain death before skinning begins. Similar "skinning alive" accusations have also been made by other groups, with many citing studies claiming that up to 45 per cent of seals are "skinned alive."

A 2002 report in the Canadian Veterinary Journal found that "the large majority of seals taken during this hunt … are killed in an acceptably humane manner."

As I said, every time independent observers--even those funded by DFO--visit the seal hunt cruelty is observed. Every time.

[Praxius]

As I said, every time independent observers--even those funded by DFO--visit the seal hunt cruelty is observed. Every time.

From the links and sources I just provided you, the above claim is completely wrong and ill-informed.

Besides, cruelty is Subjective..... all of the legit & independent reports I have come across have noted that seals are killed in a Humane Manner.... far more humane than what any other hunted or farmed animals are subjected to. The only reports that don't are from biased, ignorant groups such as the Sea Shepherds, PETA and the sort, whom make a lot of claims, but never have much backing them up.

the thing is, I don't really need to defend anything.... You and these so-called Animal Rights/Protection groups are making these claims..... you need to prove that the majority of seal hunters are not abiding by the rules, you have to prove seals are suffering more than farmed animals or other hunted animals..... you have to prove that seals are not being killed humanely.

You're the one who wants the current practice changed, therefore the onus lies on you to prove your case in order for things to change.

Yet all you do are make baseless claims of what's observed "Every Time", you make the claims that the majority of seal hunters don't abide by the rules because too few of them are being observed (which makes no sense, because if they're not being observed, then how would you know what they are doing or not doing?)

And even when observers do get in and see what the seal hunters are doing, you're making the claim that even then they don't give a crap about the rules and purposely go out of their way to make seals suffer, implying that they're heartless monsters who get some sick pleasure out of what they do.

Except that every study ever done about the seal hunt shows that the required method for killing is neither enforced nor, generally, followed. So widespread is the cruelty that there has never been an instance when an independent observer observed the seal hunt, even when escorted by Canadian government officials, that improper killing was not observed, never. Improper and cruel killing is not the exception, it is the rule.

That is the reality of the situation.

^ You made this claim, you claim this is the "reality of the situation".... yet if this is true, where is the evidence and facts backing up your claims?

I presented my claims and I presented my sources.... where's your's?

The EU Seal Ban was decided without an open debate, without factual evidence provided and was done under pressure from various animal rights groups presenting emotional arguments backed up with nothing.

The only reason why the Seal Hunt is getting such a bad look in some people's eyes is because most think Seals are cut widdle cuddly animals that can do neat little tricks with balls on their nose and baby seals are white fluffy teddy bear things..... so long as an animal looks cute and can do a trick or two, people want to protect them and anybody who harms or kills them is some heartless evil monster who gets pleasure out of making things suffer.

That's what it all boils down to.

The only other animals on this planet that are treated more humanely than Seals when killed are pets when they're put to sleep.

[Ender]

Is there a reason why the seals must be killed that way? I'm not opposed to the hunt by itself, if it is not harming the seal population. Although I don't find anything gratifying about hunting myself, I don't have a problem with other people doing so. But that seems like an awfully convoluted and cruel way to go about killing an animal.