Is the Canadian Seal Hunt Worth It?

[Truth Defender]

Way of topic but interesting to me.

You know that ageing fish by looking at scales takes a long time, whilst weighing them takes seconds. I developed a program where say 80 fish where aged and 1000 weighed. The 80 where used to construct a normal distribution for age and weight, then the 1000 where put through the filter so that say a fish weighing a kilo might add 0.95 to the 4 year old counter and 0.05 to the 5 year old. Since no one will believe 9.63 fish are ten years old a kludge at the end to make them all integers and the total the same. Cutting edge stuff in my day, I take it packaged software now.

I was modelling ground water, same problems, you know only the rain that fell in a few places, evaporation and transiparation no data. The ground water level was known in a few observation wells, and the knowledge of what is under the ground is incomplete. You make the model behave the same as all known data, then next year tweek it again when you have more data. You can actually discover geological features at this stage, i.e. the only possible way that could happen is if there is something impervious 'clay' just there. I would have a fair degree of confidence that any ones ground water model would be about 95% accurate in predicting what if's.

[barts]

Just sayin', Truth Defender, but throughout this topic, you've raised some very interesting notions, often based on experience, about science and society. You may want to consider raising some of these issues in other forums such as Philosophy & Ethics, Society & Rights, and Science & Technology. Just a thought.

[Truth Defender]

Thank you Bart I have learned quite a lot from this thread.

1) When I was about three I remember my father told me to step over a snail on the path with reasoning like Albert Schweitzer's it had a right to life to. Only if it was eating my cabbage could I kill it.

2) I was reading up on the European Famine of the 40's. I noticed that because of high grain prices it was not economical for pig farmers to fatten their pigs on grain in the USA, so they went to market 6 pounds lighter, this made another 2 million tons of grain available for Europe. I had not realised quite how wasteful fattening animals on grain was. But don't get the wrong idea, there have been times when due to high grain prices marginal land has been ploughed, the results generally where better not to have bothered, but to grow grass and let sheep eat it.

3). The rations in British occupied Germany where half our rations. I know we like being beastly to the Germans but that was cruel. I was hungry before meal times, but I would have preferred a bit more equitable sharing.

4) If you think your Canadian Seal Counting is Ify, the Norwegian is worse, and Russian worse still, but the Russians have a Satellite Camera with 70 cm Resolution which they use to route ice breakers around Whelping Grounds. Probably helps the ice breaker to, because Seals Chose the thickest ice.

5) Thanks for the Information on Isabella Bay, I have been urging the Inuit's I have contact with to forgo their traditional hunt of Bow Heads, I think its 20 a year allowed. I will keep quiet, I am really to much out of touch to comment.

6) I believe in Marine Conservation Areas. Lundy Island is a small Island in the mouth of the Bristol Channel. From about 1930 to 1960, the owner of the Island a Mr Harman called himself the King of Lundy and declared his own territorial waters. Any fishing boat that came within range of his high powered rifle came under fire, he did knock a chunk of wood off the wheelhouse of one boat. The Devon and Cornwall constabulary said Lundy was not their jurisdiction, so basically it wasn't fished for 30 years, just out range provided better fishing than elsewhere. When he died of course it was a gold rush and fished out in about 3 years.

The sweetest thing I saw with Seals was sailing on the river Nene, Three Seals had wriggled through the mud into a grass field (Not a Common Site) Two cows walking down to the river where standing motionless 20 yards away. Both sets of animals where involved in an intense staring competition that lasted all the time I had them in view. Of course I did not have my camera.

I got something out of this have to go away and do more thinking. Can't remember the exact quote, something like a mind that is closed is as much use as a parachute that won't open.

Oh the Harp Seal Sporran, we are not just beastly to the Germans, we wouldn't let the Scots where their national costume for 100 years after the Jacobite rebellion. When the ban was lifted no one could remember what the costume was, so they consulted old oil paintings, and their was the Harp Seal Sporran. It could be that the Harp Seal was common around Scotland in the past.

[barts]

Truth Defender, I'm looking forward to reading your future posts. As the owner of Volconvo, let me extend my warmest thanks and regards for what you've already contributed to our debate forum.

[Truth Defender]

Bart, I came across this link and found it an interesting read:

ANIFPO Fishing Industry Trip to North America

I am not exactly aware of the current position. But fishermen in the North of Scotland where finding difficulty in recruiting crews, and had to resort to hiring none EU nationals (Filipino's). The UK minimum wage is slightly hirer than Canada's, but fishermen's wages depend on share of the catch or profit, which fluctuates wildly trip by trip.

I admire the toughness of Newfoundland Fishermen, I believe they could endure working on a Scottish Trawler. Weather it would be economical for a Newfoundland fisherman to work on a Scottish trawler in the winter months or if the Scots would want them just for the winter I will have to find out.

[barts]

Over the last few days, two new reports have emerged that are relevant to portions of this thread. The first is a report in French Canadian media that Department of Fisheries and Oceans scientists are recommending a 25% reduction in the Total Allowable Catch of harp seals,

due to a decline in reproductive rates and lack of food. The lack of ice in recent years has also played a role according to Dr Hammill, with barely 30% of newborn pups surviving the first 6 weeks of life due to poor ice conditions.

Concerns about this issue were raised by animal and environmental protection organizations a decade ago.

Also, there is a labor shortage in Newfoundland and Labrador. The notion frequently put forward that the seal hunt is necessary for the jobs has little currency. The issue isn't jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador, it's now the lack of workers.

Newfoundland and Labrador is in the midst of an unprecedented energy and resources boom that is straining the province’s ability to keep up. Finding enough workers to complete some $43-billion worth of major projects under way and planned is proving to be a monumental challenge.

[Truth Defender]

Hi Bart,

Merry Christmas,

Thank you for the first link. As last years hunt resulted in a catch of 38,000, reducing the total allowable catch by 25% to 300,000 is not really meaningful. The price of a pelt is the more significant number as to the numbers of seals killed. Last year there was not a single Pelt left in Canada by August, this would indicate an upward movement in price, and more boats finding it economically worthwhile setting out. The down side of an increase in market price is the 100,000 Pelts stocked by the Greater Greenland Company, if they find a way to market their stock, then the price will fall.

I accept that it is highly probable that in years to come we may no longer see Harp Seals breeding in the Gulf. I half remember reading that the Magdalen Islanders where allowed to hunt at the Front this year. The regulations state: Seals harvested by sealers licensed in an area or sub-area are counted against the allocation for that area or sub-area, regardless of the area in which they are taken. That’s bound to cause problems if there are no Harp Seals in the gulf. I believe Norwegian estimates of harp seal population in the "Rose Garden" is two to three times greater than in the 1970’s.

If you Canadians can have your "Front" we British can have our "Rose Garden". Its a name that seems to be dying out. This is only the reference I could find to it.

Warmer water ? more mackerel

It dates back to the days of British Arctic Cod trawling, and refers to a refrain in a song popular then "I never promised you a rose garden". The area is to the West of the North Cape (The Northern Hemispheres Cape Horn), where the jet stream after crossing Arctic Canada is forced down to the surface causing intense and frequent storms. (I never promised you a Rose Garden).

The other link. St Johns reminds me very much of Aberdeen in the oil boom years of the North Sea. You have a situation where property prices in job rich area’s are ten to twenty times more than the poor coastal fishing villages. Yes there has been a migration from the fishing villages of the most able to where there are jobs leaving the area with the less able.

At the same time, Newfoundland and Labrador has an ageing population, with the highest median age in Canada. Older workers are less willing to move to where jobs are, and less eager to shift gears and train in the skills that employers need.

Younger people have left the province in droves: the population of Newfoundland and Labrador fell by nearly 75,000 people – or 13 per cent – to 506,000 between the early 1980s and 2007. And it tended to be young adults who moved away.

So the job boom does not help the old man in a boat.

By the way its difficult to judge the age of a boat just by looking. But to my eye, your fleet is not geriatric, but it is in its late middle age. In days gone by, when there was a lot of money in fishing, those who could afford to, got a new boat about every six years, like a car it was beginning to give trouble, at a rough guess your fleets average age is about twelve. I don’t think anyone is making the kind of money that would give them the optimism to order a new boat, so expect a decline in the fishing fleet.

In Europe fish quota’s have been set 50% to 25% higher than last year, at the same time the number of days at sea per boat has been cut to 4 days every fortnight. I cannot see four days work per fortnight attracting a Canadian over for the winter so I will forget that idea. I also don’t see how all of the boats will catch their full quota in the allotted time, but they have a complicated system of swaps so it might work overall.

Whaling. I am not sure how many Minke Whales there are but from the numbers I have seen, (Once too close, if you are looking down the blow hole and notice the barnacles stop three inches down that is too close for me, I have read Moby Dick), I can’t believe that they are seriously endangered. I understand that the Japanese have years and years of frozen whale meat in store. I cannot believe that there government would sponsor their research vessels (Which are legal) except that the antics of Sea Shepherd goads them into it. There is absolutely no economic or scientific reason to continue next year. In the meantime Iceland is supplying the Japanese market with Fin Whale a premium product for whale meat eaters, that ought to be stopped.

I found this link that supports your view that Politicians effect science.

How the Abundant Minke Whale Was Added to the CITES Appendix I

So the Minke has the same protection as the Fin Whale when the Fin Whale needs it far more.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive, might not be quite the correct quotation. But when we engage emotion and make a species CITES 1 when it is not endangered, the species that are endangered are afforded less protection by CITES 1 status. Its rather like prohibition in the USA, when the consumption of alcohol was made criminal, people could not see a reason for criminalising alcohol, so respect for the law was diminished.

On a sad note locally, the Fenland Fog is extinct, thought to be a Scandinavian Pool Frog it was allowed to die out for lack of habitat. Then some one did some carbon dating on old bones and found that it had lived in England for at least 10,000 years. Recordings showed it had a different croak to its Scandinavian Cousin, so it was a different species. Great shame because it is relatively easy to create a reservation for amphibians here. We have old clay pits (Brick Works), the usual procedure is to fill the pit with London garbage and then cover them over (Land fill). The pits fill with water naturally so not a big expense creating a reservation.

Natural England - Pool frog

Something else I am out of date on.

[barts]

An article in Canada's Globe & Mail, Russian ban ‘spells the end of Canadian sealing,’ activists say. I wonder if Canada will be challenging Russia's ban in the WTO.

Apart from the information about the last major market for pelts from Canada's commercial seal hunt closing, one comment I found particularly interesting in this article is from

Alan Herscovici, the executive vice-president of the Fur Council of Canada, there has been much confusion in the past few years, and markets have been weak because of bans like those in the European Union.

But there is no scientific justification for a ban on the seal industry, Mr. Herscovici said.

Science has nothing to say about whether or not there is a seal hunt or a ban on sealing. Science can provide information about seals that policy makers and others can, if they choose, consider when developing policy. Herscovici is correct. There is "no scientific justification for a ban on the seal industry", just as there is no "scientific justification" for a sealing industry or the use of the parts of animals for human amusement. Science does not justify or condone anything.

Too often, policymakers and lobbyists like Herscovici use and misuse science to justify policy when, in fact, what they are doing is using science as propaganda to sell a politically advantageous policy or justify a commercial activity.

[Truth Defender]

High,

Using that faulty instrument my memory. I recall that the seal hunting licences where given as a make weight to the inshore fisherman when the moratorium on Cod fishing was announced. I believe 6,000 licences although in the boom years only about 400 boats took part in the sealing. I understand that many fishermen renew the licence annually hoping to get $40,000 when the licences are bought out.

A Canadian manufacturer gave evidence to a commons select committee that he still exports $2 million of Seal Oil Capsules to the States, whilst anecdotally I chatted to a lady at the airport who intended taking a Seal skin skirt to Palm Springs, she told me that they never look. As far as I can tell all the USA ban does is make the Alaskan Inuit strip off their cold weather clothes at the Canada USA border. To be honest I was not listening that carefully, but I think I told the lady from Palm Springs that her skirt would have cost about $1,000 and she said it was much more than that, and she was going to have it changed to cushion covers, which was legal if it was an old skirt. This conversation only took place because I was outside the airport having a smoke, when I noticed an old lady making a complete Horlicks of parking her car (A rental, she was picking some one up), and being a gentleman I offered my guidance.

So like prohibition, the USA seal ban makes their middle class criminals.

Nothing wrong with making use of a dead animals skin. Good environmental science to make use of a dead animal. That's what the European Union thought when they published a book 87 recipe's to cook Seal Meat, for the 400 odd seals killed in the Baltic each year.

I believe that a licensed hunt is the more easily regulated and more humane, than random shooting as occurs in Scotland. Shooting seals swimming in the water has a good chance of causing the animal a slow inhumane death.

If global warming continues to push the whelping grounds further north than Makkovik up towards Hopedale, then not so many Newfoundland fishermen will want to go that far. So its most likely the hunt is only going to be about the same size as last year.

[barts]

Good environmental science to make use of a dead animal.

What do you mean by this?

[Truth Defender]

The Brundtland Commission report "Our Common Future" defines sustainable development as "development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs". The commission established a commitment to sustainability as the key universal value to guide natural-resource harvesting policies for all the peoples of the world, regardless of their distinct cultural practices and sensibilities.

Seal Hunting or Harvesting like fishing or picking berries, is a sustainable use to meet current needs unless we harvest too many. For the Harp Seal someone has calculated 4.3 million as the minimum population I think its 70% of the maximum observed. I know you can calculate the optimum size of a fish catch so that you get the greatest yield year after year. Even wild berry picking, an area can be gleaned to closely and berries don't grow there again.

Berry Pickers in Newfoundland get $7.50 a gallon, three hours to pick a gallon, a sign of hardship that people do it.

The idea of sustainability is that people can make use of a naturally occurring resource, but with it there is the responsibility of sustainable harvesting, this a matter of education or regulation.

The Seal Hunt is a sustainable harvest. Some useful products come from it. The fur is the only fabric that is both water proof and warm, ideal for a sailing glove, but impossibly expensive for such a use.

Environmentalists should support an activity like the Seal Hunt, provided the Harp Seal population is abundant. Its an ecologically sound use of a natural resource.

[barts]

Seal Hunting or Harvesting like fishing or picking berries, is a sustainable use to meet current needs unless we harvest too many.

...

Environmentalists should support an activity like the Seal Hunt, provided the Harp Seal population is abundant. Its an ecologically sound use of a natural resource.

Whether we "harvest" anything, including berries is not a scientific issue or an ecological one. It is an issue of values. Science can give us information about an activity, but it lacks the competency to decide anything or justify something ethically, economically, or on any other grounds.

It is not ecologically "sound" or not "sound" to use a natural resource. Human beings using a natural resource has ecological and other impacts. The "soundness" or lack of "soundness" of the impact is determined by human values, not science, or even the ecology or biosphere. The biosphere would change if harp seals were driven to extinction by human beings. Our values determine if that is something we want to consider sound or not. We considered it sound to drive into extinction the smallpox virus. That was a value decision, not an ecological or scientific one.

Some environmentalists do support activities like the seal hunt; the WWF comes to mind. Other environmentalists do not. As I say seal hunting for whatever reason is a decision based on values that is sometimes informed by science, but neither ecology nor science justifies seal hunting. They are silent on the issue. Notwithstanding that, they are used for propaganda purposes.

If human beings were to disappear from the planet, your argument seems to entail that somehow the biosphere would suffer absent human exploitation. I doubt this is what you intended to imply.