The Death Penalty

[Section 8]

Many posts hint and are partially about this, but I think it's about time to create a thread exclusively to the death penalty. I'll kick it off with a couple of things that I have posted in various other topics.

In the Clinton/Gore administration the amount of inmates doubled from 1 to 2 million.

In a 23 year period (1973-1995) a study found 7 out of 10 capital sentence cases out of 4,578 had serious, reversible error.

Since 1973 95 death row inmates were fully exonerated by the court. 96 have been realesed as a result of DNA testing.

In 85% of death penalty cases the error rates are 60% or higher


This is a direct quote from Social Work Speaks sixth edition Nation Association of Social Workers Policy Statements:

Abolition of the Death Penalty
There is no evidence that the death penalty serves as a deterrent to violent crime. In fact the recent increase in homicides in the United States has occured despite the reinstitution of capital punishment in most states. The abolition of the death penalty would bring the United States' penal system in line with those of other modern industrialized societies. As it is currently used, the death penalty violates the constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. In addition, the equal application of the death penalty deprives many people of color and low-income people of the Fourteenth Amendment's gurantee of "equal protection under law."
End quote


Feel free to discuss

Have Fun
Shalom

[Fallen Angel]

I agree that capital punishment is not a deterrent to serious crime, hell alot of the sickos see it as a glorious way to die, their 15 minutes of fame so to speak because they never did anything worthwhile in their lives.
In saying that I still support the Death sentence, in Australia we are spending millions of much needed tax keeping these animals in comfort, they can even sue now if they are injured in an accident in there, crazy stuff.

[Geoff332]

Every study I've read concludes that it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life. Cost isn't really a good argument -- unless you want to restructure the whole justice system, eliminate the right of appeal and so forth. If that's what you want, then there are countries that will accomdate you, but I would prefer not to live in any of them.

[Fallen Angel]

Probably because of the endless appeals system, we have three levels in Australia, I heard the US has nine!

[Geoff332]

As I said, there are countries that don't havce such a rigourous appeals system. If you promise to emigrate not leave there for five years, I'll even buy your tickets to Sudan. They have a death pentalty and virtually non-existant appeals system, so you should love it there.

[Fallen Angel]

Originally posted by Geoff332@09-24-2003 07:49 AM As I said, there are countries that don't havce such a rigourous appeals system. If you promise to emigrate not leave there for five years, I'll even buy your tickets to Sudan. They have a death pentalty and virtually non-existant appeals system, so you should love it there.

Well aint we a smartarse Geoff, they also have corrupt warlords who rape and murder their own people, they would be the first I would have hung, if I had the power.

[Section 8]

Well FA, if we had it your way the ninety-five people would have been murdered by the state for crimes that they didn't commit.

Have Fun
Shalom

[Geoff332]

OK then. You go out and find a country that uses the death penalty and doesn't have an appeals process that you would like to live in. I'll even help you with a list of countries that still have the death penalty.

AFGHANISTAN
ALGERIA
ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA
BAHAMAS
BAHRAIN
BANGLADESH
BARBADOS
BELARUS
BELIZE
BENIN
BOTSWANA
BURUNDI
CAMEROON
CHAD
CHINA
COMOROS
CONGO (Democratic Republic)
CUBA
DOMINICA
EGYPT
EQUATORIAL GUINEA
ERITREA
ETHIOPIA
GABON
GHANA
GUATEMALA
GUINEA
GUYANA
INDIA
INDONESIA
IRAN
IRAQ
JAMAICA
JAPAN
JORDAN
KAZAKSTAN
KENYA
KOREA (North)
KOREA (South)
KUWAIT
KYRGYZSTAN
LAOS
LEBANON
LESOTHO
LIBERIA
LIBYA
MALAWI
MALAYSIA
MAURITANIA
MONGOLIA
MOROCCO
MYANMAR
NIGERIA
OMAN
PAKISTAN
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
PHILIPPINES
QATAR
RWANDA
SAINT CHRISTOPHER & NEVIS
SAINT LUCIA
SAINT VINCENT & GRENADINES
SAUDI ARABIA
SIERRA LEONE
SINGAPORE
SOMALIA
SUDAN
SWAZILAND
SYRIA
TAIWAN
TAJIKISTAN
TANZANIA
THAILAND
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO
TUNISIA
UGANDA
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
UZBEKISTAN
VIET NAM
YEMEN
ZAMBIA
ZIMBABWE

Why don't you pick one and then tell us about the superiority of their appeals process over the US? Since what you're advocating is such a good idea, there must be a place that actually uses it.

[Sodfather]

I think capital punishment has had its days, as most countries besides America have already realized. I think making the criminals live out the remainder of their lives in captivity is a greater punishment than death. The only downside is that tax dollars must be allocated for the upkeep of these prisoners. And, also, as Section 8 said, innocent prisoners are being executed - which is absolutely not acceptable.

Overall, abolishing capital punishment is something that needs to be done soon - we (America) are behind other countries by using the death penalty in that it's a step above the use of torture...Very archaic stuff.

[Geoff332]

The only downside is that tax dollars must be allocated for the upkeep of these prisoners.

Sorry to go on about this, but if you are referring to the US specifically, then this is not a valid argument. It costs considerably more to execute a prisoner than it does to imprison them for life. This is based on their time on death row vs general population in a maximum security prison. These costs could be reduced by shortening the appeals process (hence reducing the time on death row), but this would increase the number of "innocent prisoners ... being executed - which is absolutely not acceptable."

<edit>
I should give some sort of facts to back up what I have said. I can't find the original sources, but these two pages have information about death penalty costs.
World Policy (about half way down)
Amnesty USA
A brief summary is:
LA County: death penalty costs $ 2 M vs $ 1.4 M for Life Without Parole (LWOP).
Texas: $ 2.3 M for death, about three times the cost of LWOP.
North Carolina: death costs 2.16 M more than LWOP.
Florida: $ 3.2 M for death, $600 K for LWOP.
New York: death is about three times the cost of LWOP.
Similar studies in Kansas and Maryland give similar results.
</edit>

[Section 8]

FA, why did you say that it's "crazy stuff" that they can sue if they are injured in an accident. According to what you posted then if I was an inmate and I was brutally beaten and raped while a guard just stood there and watched I should not be able to sue. This makes absolutely no sense. And by the way to meals a day in a tiny cell is not exactly comfort.

Have Fun
Shalom

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Sorry to go on about this, but if you are referring to the US specifically, then this is not a valid argument. It costs considerably more to execute a prisoner than it does to imprison them for life. This is based on their time on death row vs general population in a maximum security prison. These costs could be reduced by shortening the appeals process (hence reducing the time on death row), but this would increase the number of "innocent prisoners ... being executed - which is absolutely not acceptable."

This is an old lame argurement, the sytem does need an overhaul, and that price is one of the things that need fixing...

[Geoff332]

Which argument was that?

[Sodfather]

Not to argue in favor of capital punishment, but I don't see how it costs less to kill prisoners than to support them for life.

Let's see...

Noose: $10, and it's reusable.
Gallows: $200 one-time fee? :)
Bag over Prisoner's Face: $5
Supporting Him for a Few Years: Not much.

Now for the lifers...

A Lifetime of Food: A lot compared to a few years.
Everything Else that I Can't Think Of: Probably adds to how much more lifers cost to support.

Haha, that's how I see it...So the cost of handling appeals is what puts the cost of sentencing people to death past that of supporting lifers? Some costly appeals...

<--- Stupid. :(

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Let me get this straight, we all agree that the system needs changing. Both sides agee that the appeals system is too costly. Both sides admit that criminals go free and the innocent sometimes get caught in the system.

Therefore what we need is a better system, or fix the flaws in this one, not a bunch of people pointing at the flaws in this one to claim support of their opinion. The current cost of appeals does not have a damn thing to do with effectiveness of CP, that is a lame (but apparently effective) attempt to distract attention. No one knows the number of people that would be killed of we simply let all the murders go, so pointing at the numbers of "innocents" killed by CP has nothing to balance it against. I have searched and never found a good accounting on what "innocents" have actually been killed by CP, all I have ever found were murderers and rapists that might not have committed the crime that put them to death.

Why is it that people wish to solve this problem with wishful thinking rather than using problem solving skills. It seems that the more important a subject is, the more likely man will stop using his brain and start using his feelings to solve it. Like I often say, irrational.

[Downwiththestereotype]

Sodfather: All the appeals and lefistics of having somone executed are very time cunsuming and expensive.

It is my beleif that Capital Punishment is tottaly unacceptable in a 'modern' society, or a society of any kind for that matter.

First off, in no way does killinbg teach that killing is wrong, the state should not be above the law regarding death. Also, as someone said early (Sodfather I beleive, correct me if Im wrong) Life imprisonment is a far greater punishment than death, I know id rather be ececuted that rott away in a concrete and metal box for the rest of my years.

One of the more intresting arguments against the death penalty ive heard is as follows.
Say a Jurer is 90% certain that the defendant in the case they are involved in, is guilty. If life imprisonment is the likely conviction, then the Jurer will probably vote guilty because, if that doubt does brove true, at least he or she can be set free and cleared. However if Capital punishment is the likely conviction, The jurer may vot Not guilty, So that should he or she turn out to be not guilty, the jurer would not have the guilt of esning someone to there death.

This means that along side the risk of executring the inocent, you have the risk of letting more guilty people go free.

As for the argument of being a deterant, the death penalty has little or no effect. This is pmost likely because the vast majority of murders are carried out by 3 sorts of people. Thos who are commiting non pre-meditated murder (i.e. crimes of passion) There are those who are not able to think rationally about consiquences. and also there are those who may beleive they are above the law and wpont be caught. There are of course exceptions to theese, some of which may be effected by the deterent of the death penalty. However those cases must be few and far between otherwise the homocide rate would have dropped.

I would like someone please to present me with a solid argument of how capital punishment is superior to life imprisonment.

Peace all

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

DWStereotype

Another post to prove my point I see.

You might also want to clear up some poor logic in those assertions:
#1 CP is not a punishment, it is a way to remove a paticularly dangerous person from society before he kills again. It is to protect future victums not to punish anyone.
#2 A jury consists of more than one member that must vote unanimous to reach that decision. So your example of a single jury member being 90% sure is not relevant.
#3 I have already presented a solid arguement, you simply choose to ignore it.

Balence must be maintained, letting the guilty go also risks the lives of innocents.

[RebelWithanAK]

And how would CP do what Life Means Life doesn't in terms of keeping the dangerous off the streets?

And, for that matter, do you acknowledge that there is a chronic problem with wrongful convictions?

[Geoff332]

Interesting:

current cost of appeals does not have a damn thing to do with effectiveness of CP

Now, let's look at the context:

I think capital punishment has had its days, as most countries besides America have already realized. I think making the criminals live out the remainder of their lives in captivity is a greater punishment than death. The only downside is that tax dollars must be allocated for the upkeep of these prisoners. And, also, as Section 8 said, innocent prisoners are being executed - which is absolutely not acceptable.

In my reading this, Sodfather was telling us that the only valid argument for the death penalty was cost. On all other grounds, it wasn't valid. I then pointed out that at present the cost is actually cheaper to execute imprison someone for life, rather than execute them. This was not an argument, but a statement of fact (I'm not sure you know the difference between the two), and I provided evidence to support it. I also said that any substantive changes that would reduce the costs were likely to increase the incidence of innocent people being executed.

Then went off on a rant about liberals which did little but reveal your particular biases. The jewell in the crown was

No one knows the number of people that would be killed of we simply let all the murders go

That is a basically nonsense argument. No-one has suggested such a thing as letting all murderers go, except you.

So, let's get back to the facts.

Your argument is pretty simple. The only substantive point that you have raised is that the death penalty is a mechanism that prevents people from re-offending. If that is the substance of your argument, then the simple reply is that life without parole also prevents re-offending. So that argument is pretty much null and void. I see no other arguments in what you have said.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Interesting Geoff apparently lacks the ability to determine that Sodfather and GreatWyrm are different entities, implying that in his mind only two entities exist, himself and all others...