The Death Penalty

[Waychel]

Criminals are not given the death penalty if it can be proven that they are insane, or something similar. Actually, in many cases these days, murderers have plead "temporary insanity" and avoided the death penalty AS WELL as prison.

Defense attorneys are pretty tough in their defense of "the accused", as they choose to refer to them. Some of the most intelligent and clever attorneys I know are criminal defense and they're unwavered in their defense even if it is pretty evident the person is guilty of whatever crime. Believe me, if there is enough question as to if the person was insane, coerced, emotionally destraught (crime of passion) or the like, their chances of getting the death penalty for murder aren't very high.

[Section 8]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Criminals are not given the death penalty if it can be proven that they are insane, or something similar. Actually, in many cases these days, murderers have plead "temporary insanity" and avoided the death penalty AS WELL as prison.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Actually, in the US it&#39;s legal to kill a mentally retarted person.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Defense attorneys are pretty tough in their defense of "the accused", as they choose to refer to them. Some of the most intelligent and clever attorneys I know are criminal defense and they&#39;re unwavered in their defense even if it is pretty evident the person is guilty of whatever crime. Believe me, if there is enough question as to if the person was insane, coerced, emotionally destraught (crime of passion) or the like, their chances of getting the death penalty for murder aren&#39;t very high.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

This all depends on your social status. If your poor, then your pretty much screwed. If your rich, then you have no need to fear as you are "innocent."

[Waychel]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Actually, in the US it&#39;s legal to kill a mentally retarted person.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I&#39;m pretty sure that the death penalty isn&#39;t applicable in the cases of the mentally disabled anymore. This does sound possible though, so I won&#39;t claim it is false. Which state is this supposedly permitted?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
This all depends on your social status. If your poor, then your pretty much screwed. If your rich, then you have no need to fear as you are "innocent."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Oh, you REALLY should meet a public defense attorney&#33; =PpP

[RebelWithanAK]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel)
I&#39;m pretty sure that the death penalty isn&#39;t applicable in the cases of the mentally disabled anymore. This does sound possible though, so I won&#39;t claim it is false. Which state is this supposedly permitted?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Actually, 25 states still permit it.
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel)
Oh, you REALLY should meet a public defense attorney&#33; =PpP<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
What, those state-ordained desk jockeys who care as much about you as the shit they took not half an hour before? Who get paid the same whether you get off free or get the chair? Oh, yeah, they&#39;ll be reeeal interested in long, drawn-out trials that look over the evidence with a hawk&#39;s eye when there were 40 million similar cases just preceding yours and that was just this morning.

Conversely, as Robert Shapiro will tell you, money makes all the difference in the world.

[castille]

Insane or not, its far better to execute those accused of committing crimes while "pleading" insanity.

Maybe they have their super special reason for killing (ie. the Mothership is coming and their mission is to exterminate humankind), but it is impractical (and suicidal) to simply release them back into society.


We can discuss philosophy and morality all we want, but maybe we should release a few of those serial killers into your home and see whether you want to accept their beliefs.

[RebelWithanAK]

Chalk one up for humanity, Castille, ole&#39; boy&#33; Man am I suddenly disappointed that you and I share the same species&#33;

[Waychel]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Chalk one up for humanity, Castille, ole&#39; boy&#33; Man am I suddenly disappointed that you and I share the same species&#33;<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Was that really relevant to this debate? I mean come on. =PpP

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)

Actually, 25 states still permit it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I am finding this rather interesting. What states exactly?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)

What, those state-ordained desk jockeys who care as much about you as the shit they took not half an hour before? Who get paid the same whether you get off free or get the chair? Oh, yeah, they&#39;ll be reeeal interested in long, drawn-out trials that look over the evidence with a hawk&#39;s eye when there were 40 million similar cases just preceding yours and that was just this morning.

Conversely, as Robert Shapiro will tell you, money makes all the difference in the world.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Nobody wants to stay as a court-appointed attorney forever. They want to get a name for themselves, start their own practice. Its not a matter of them caring for who they are defending, because attorneys rarely do; its a matter of how badly they want to win. For attorneys to do their job in a criminal case, they more or less have to be impartial to whether or not the person they are defending committed the crime they are accused of or not. That not only means they wont care if the person is indeed guilty, but if they are also innocent. Its a game to them, and nobody likes to lose.

I think you are cutting them far too short. Not just them, but the judicial system in general: people are innocent until proven guilty.

[RebelWithanAK]

Unless they&#39;re poor. Look, the justice system is overcrowded with case after case after case, with long wait times and harried nerves. The average suspect isn&#39;t hardly given the time of day in the name of expediency, and the DA isn&#39;t about to hold up the works. Both Judges and DAs want quick trials, or barring that quick settlements. Juries are rarely impartial in the matter, and in the face of crime statistics would rather see somebody go to jail than have the case unsolved. It&#39;s no shock that the poor (and minorities especially) are heavily over-represented in the prisons, and that the rich - ie: those who can afford their own lawyers - more often than not get off scott free.

[Waychel]

The rich do not always get off "scott free." It is true that the rich can afford better attorneys, but an attorney does not always mean success. Even the rich can be found guilty, it has been known to happen when they are, and the best that &#036;1000 an hour attorney in his Armani suit can offer is to attempt getting an easier sentence for them.

Also, I think you are embellishing quite a bit because criminal trials are required to and do go to court typically within 60 days (I can&#39;t recall the exact timeframe). If the case doesn&#39;t go to court within that amount of time then it is dropped.

Settlement = solved. You can&#39;t have a case if you don&#39;t have somebody pressing charges, therefore no issue, no legal action and no accusation to convict of a crime upon.

[RebelWithanAK]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel)
The rich do not always get off "scott free."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
You&#39;re exaggerating my claim, which was "more often than not."
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel)
Settlement = solved. You can&#39;t have a case if you don&#39;t have somebody pressing charges, therefore no issue, no legal action and no accusation to convict of a crime upon.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
No, settlement = fewer court fees. People don&#39;t go to settlement unless they (1) think they&#39;re going to lose, (2) can&#39;t afford the legal fees, or (3) don&#39;t want to spend a month in court. It&#39;s not because the case is solved.

[Waychel]

A settlement is a mutual agreement, so I would say that the problem has been solved. :p

[Scribbler1]

It&#39;s a tough call, for sure. But like most national debates the logical middle ground is lost somehow. Some people have such contempt for the lives of others (and boy do they show it) that killing is too good for them, and for them the DP is more than satisfactory. On the other hand the anti DP folks don&#39;t like the idea at all, so it should be abolished. The DP is necessary, but not with the present court system. I humbly suggest a few changes to the DP before any innocents are taken out.

The recidivism rate is far too high, as prisons are too "humane". Prisons for certain kinds of killers should be unbelievably miserable hell-holes. Society in general has given up on the idea of rehabilitation and has committed to warehousing. If that&#39;s so, treat them like a UPS package and then after maybe 2 appeals kill them with no fanfare or media hype. Make damn sure the word gets out that NOBODY is such a tough guy that they can take prison "like a man". If you believe prison is 500 times worse than anything outside this might change a few minds.

ANY testimony by jailhouse "snitches" should be eliminated immediately. IMO these bums who would contribute to the execution of another while expecting lighter sentences for their "testimony" are no better then the killers they testify against and should be recognized as such. What&#39;s needed if possible is witnesses unknown to each other and with nothing to gain from anything they say. No books, no interviews, just go home after the trial and keep your mouth shut.

FAR less reliance on "expert testimony". For every shrink you find who says a defendant ought to be fed to the sharks you can easily find another shrink who says the poor killer would have not done the deed if his daddy didn&#39;t yell at him for not taking out the garbage.

More reliance on videotape and development of tamper-proof tape cartridges, for use during interrogations. If you admit to committing certain kinds of murders, you die, period. Maybe only ONE appeal in this kind of case. If you&#39;re stupid enough to confess to a crime you didn&#39;t commit and know there&#39;s a death penalty involved, off you go.

A more watchful eye on judges, and removal of many of them. Some of these guys would hang a man for an expired parking meter, and some are so bigoted they would have some people in a noose the first time they lay eyes on them.
Similarly, the judges who wouldn&#39;t even sentence Darth Vader to death because they believe any DP is wrong and will damn sure use their power to stop it need to go too.

Premeditated murder: definitely DP. If you plan a killing (especially of innocent strangers), I don&#39;t want them breathing the same air we breathe. Colin Ferguson (who calmly shot a bunch of rail commuters) comes to mind.

Although this contradicts the previous statement about no media, some executions should be televised on prime time depending on the type of person. Like in the old movie where James Cagney was so tough he didn&#39;t even sweat the last walk to the electric chair, until he saw the Dead End Kids in their cells watching him with admiration. In a great bit of acting, to keep the kids from emulating him he deliberately broke down like a sniveling coward. Find a particularly nasty murderer who shows any sign of weakness and tape THAT guy&#39;s last mile walk and distribute tapes in crime infested neighborhoods.

The DP is still a terribly complex argument but I believe these suggestions are a good start.