I can't talk on Volconvo about babies, right?

[syracusa]

...or I could have entitled this thread the "mediocrity and stupidity of the typical American woman".

In the past year and a half I have been frequenting several parenting and baby-related forums simply because I reached that stage in my life (I have a 6 months old).
The problem is that such forums seem to be moderated by such "consensus/harmony" -obssessed vultures that it is basically impossible to start any meaningful, more complex conversation about child-rearing. As soon as that happens, someone gets sanctimoniously offended and the moderators delete the thread.

Any post that goes beyond "oh, how cute our babies are" is considered a "hot, controversial" topic and it is automatically not accepted. Everyone is supposed to be brought to the lowest common denominator - "dumb and happy cow" style.

Got a question: is this how Americans like their women? High-pitched, eternally dressed in pink and idiotic?

The only forum I have been to so far where things are actually DISCUSSED is this one; but then again, this is a male-populated forum with no interest in baby-rearing. Shheeeeeshhh...

[jose]

we have raised two babies so far one to 14 (i think he hates me) one to 10 she has undyeing love for papa ,just you keep going other peoples opinions are just that...thier opinions

[phoenix_fire]

Well, as far as an american preference for women goes...I notice that my little sister gets all the guys and gets out of traffic tickets etc. ostensibly due to the low cut of her t-shirt. On the one hand, it annoys me, but on the other, I'd rather not have that kind of attention from that kind of man anyway.

On children, I'm afraid I can't help you much there. I don't have any and don't plan to for a while. That probably won't stop me from having plenty of vocal opinions on the subject, but a word of warning: I don't know what I'm talking about. :)

[carriew]

well I have 2 little monsters myself! I would love to start a kids/babies thread in here.

I have a 5 yr old daughter to be 6 in may(if I dont take her out first lol she is wayyy to much like me!) and a 3 yr old terror err I mean son who has some issues. we are working on that now. and we are trying for a third. (praying for pink)

I also breastfed(for 15mnths ea time) so if anyone needs any help there I may be of assistance.

and as for the other american women I know none of us are as you described! we all are very opionated and voice our opinions no matter what usually even tho our husbands at times i am certian would rather we didnt.

and as for pink well lol I cant say I even own something pink with the exception of some panties. (my little girl has pleanty pink clothes I admit it goes with her red hair) and idoitic well thats probably true in some cases but I say some of us have brains and actually use them!

did you have something specific you want to discuss?

[brien]

Quote by: syracusa ...or I could have entitled this thread the "mediocrity and stupidity of the typical American woman". In the past year and a half I have been frequenting several parenting and baby-related forums simply because I reached that stage in my life (I have a 6 months old). The problem is that such forums seem to be moderated by such "consensus/harmony" -obssessed vultures that it is basically impossible to start any meaningful, more complex conversation about child-rearing. As soon as that happens, someone gets sanctimoniously offended and the moderators delete the thread. Any post that goes beyond "oh, how cute our babies are" is considered a "hot, controversial" topic and it is automatically not accepted. Everyone is supposed to be brought to the lowest common denominator - "dumb and happy cow" style. Got a question: is this how Americans like their women? High-pitched, eternally dressed in pink and idiotic? The only forum I have been to so far where things are actually DISCUSSED is this one; but then again, this is a male-populated forum with no interest in baby-rearing. Shheeeeeshhh...

Syracusa: I have been married for 28 years and my wife and I raised two children now ages 22 and 24. One is a teacher, and the other a factory worker, working on his career skills.

My wife retired from the labor force to mother our children about 24 years ago. Her chosen vocation of motherhood is mocked by many peole who do not realize the value of a stay at home working mom. I refuse to put down career moms but we chose a different path. We are financially secure because I worked hard out in the career world and she worked hard in the home. It was a partnerhip.

Young children need their parents. I don't care what all of the experts write about child rearing in today's world. The more time you can devote to your children, the better off those kids will be in the long run. In my opinion, there are way too many selfish adults today who want the whole deal. Career, children, money, etc etc. What they end up with is a little bit of each component and never achieve any of the choices properly. Thus their success is hollow by age 65. Something has to give, and when both parents work out of the home, then it is usually the children. You can't buy time or love, both of which you sacrifice when both adults in a child rearing household do when they work outside the home. Remember to be careful what you choose because you can't buy either love or time back again. Maybe I am old fashioned, but the traditional family is the one that I was raised, and the one that my children were raised, and the one I trust the most.

And btw, my wife is neither idiotic nor high pitched in pink. She could probably teach Martha Stewart a few things and is a very interesting woman who usually is the life of the parties and social events we attend. Just because a woman chooses to work inside the home building a life for her family, doesn't mean she is condemned to a life of irrelevant knowledge only to be appreciated by other moms. It is a shallow person indeed who doesn't appreciate the experience of the stay at home mom. We would not have traded our choices for anything in this world. Best of luck to you.

[syracusa]

Quote by: carriew and as for the other american women I know none of us are as you described! we all are very opionated and voice our opinions no matter what usually even tho our husbands at times i am certian would rather we didnt.

Well...I wasn't going to bring here any specific baby-related stuff because this is not the focus of volconvo.

My outrage (and I tend to get like that quite a bit) had to do with the enormous amount of censoring, mouth-plastering, consensus-forcing women's forums in this country. I don't know what you are talking about when you say that American women are opinionated...the ones I have seen, not just locally, but on boards all over the country are nothing close to opinionated. There is a general drive to only talk about extremely safe, non-controversial topics and a level of unimaginable sensitivity to ANY (and I repeat ANY) issue that goes beyond "how wonderful our babies are".

I will write more when I return.

[rcne]

My little girl has just became 14. Its been quite a ride, from baby to toddler to kid to pree-teen to teen.

You are in prime time now, enjoy it every day. As to how to raise a kid, I have no clue. Talk to them as equal, but also remember your job as a parent isn't to be their friend all the time.

[carriew]

where do you live? maybe its something local to where I live. My mom is the same way. my sisters, our friends. I dont know anyone who is how you describe.

as for online I only belong to a few places. here. richdad both of these boards are mostly men on the richdad site its like less then 10%women. here I am just assuming that its more.
my tubal reversal board and fertilityfriend. everyone always speaks whats on there minds sometimes there is fights I have never seen a thread closed. there was just a nasty one on andrea yates in off topic on ff and it didnt get shut down.

maybe you need to find new groups that suit you better to get more of what you want out of it.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: syracusa Well...I wasn't going to bring here any specific baby-related stuff because this is not the focus of volconvo. My outrage (and I tend to get like that quite a bit) had to do with the enormous amount of censoring, mouth-plastering, consensus-forcing women's forums in this country. I don't know what you are talking about when you say that American women are opinionated...the ones I have seen, not just locally, but on boards all over the country are nothing close to opinionated. There is a general drive to only talk about extremely safe, non-controversial topics and a level of unimaginable sensitivity to ANY (and I repeat ANY) issue that goes beyond "how wonderful our babies are". I will write more when I return.

Ah, another American woman bashing thread. Hell, I'm up for it.


It is my opinion ( based only on my own experiences, and those told to me in confidence ) that the vast majority of American women ( in the age group we are discussing ) all share a select few opinions about most subjects.


I believe the phenomenon responsible for this is the places that women like to look for information. Many solicit advice from womens magazines, others from talk shows, others have those same stories retold to them through friends in whom they were seeking advice, others appeal to their mothers only to get the same source for the information yet again. Ultimately, most of the information they are disseminating comes from people whom they don't know, and therefore is probably not applicable to their situation.


It probably also leads to the broad generalizations like even I tend to make when discussion this subject.


I guess what I'm saying is that women tend to let other people form the opinion, they just want to select out the bits that they think fit their individual situation, and try to apply it to their lives.


That is why men in the US all have jokes ready about "how their old lady"...

uses sex as a weapon

want them to participate a test ( out of a womens magazine ) to "rate their relationship"

expects men to pick up the subtlest clues, and then blame the men because they didn't actually want to "articulate their position". They then turn the whole thing around, and then claim the "men don't want to talk" routine.

seek advice from strangers who can't offer any constructive advice

all want the same things, at the same time, for the same reason, to the same ends

boyfriends/friends all have to pass the group popularity contest

throw old, irrelevant stuff up in their faces in the middle of an arguement to attempt to keep them off balance, or make them loose their cool, and thus the ability to reason properly, to gain unfair advantage, or illicit a violent response which can then be turned around on them through guilt


Women around here are very predictable in many ways. In other words, they seem to be easy to herd into large masses of conformists who are all seeking the same answer.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: syracusa In the past year and a half I have been frequenting several parenting and baby-related forums simply because I reached that stage in my life (I have a 6 months old). The problem is that such forums seem to be moderated by such "consensus/harmony" -obssessed vultures that it is basically impossible to start any meaningful, more complex conversation about child-rearing. As soon as that happens, someone gets sanctimoniously offended and the moderators delete the thread. Any post that goes beyond "oh, how cute our babies are" is considered a "hot, controversial" topic and it is automatically not accepted. Everyone is supposed to be brought to the lowest common denominator - "dumb and happy cow" style.

What forums are you visiting? My mom runs one on ivillage.com regarding breastfeeding that gets pretty controversial. She also dispenses advice and things on it.

Got a question: is this how Americans like their women? High-pitched, eternally dressed in pink and idiotic?

Wouldn't be bad, except for the idiotic part. I need someone I can hold a conversation with, and my tolerance for stupidity is way too low to hold up over a lifetime. In terms of traditional roles, I do like my women at home, that's why I married a traditional woman. Unfortuneately she has to keep her job until next year when i'm done with school, and then she's done with the career thing.

The only forum I have been to so far where things are actually DISCUSSED is this one; but then again, this is a male-populated forum with no interest in baby-rearing. Shheeeeeshhh...

I have an interest in baby rearing, in that i am rearing one.

Quote by: Milton Bradley It is my opinion ( based only on my own experiences, and those told to me in confidence ) that the vast majority of American women ( in the age group we are discussing ) all share a select few opinions about most subjects.

That they get from either Oprah or The View. Has anyone ever watched that show? The women on there are the most idiotic, ignorant people on television. They lack any sort of an understanding of the issues of the day and instead spout half-truths and repeat factoids as if they were the One Universal Truth...

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: syracusa Got a question: is this how Americans like their women? High-pitched, eternally dressed in pink and idiotic?

Look here.


The sooner you embrace the broom and the frying pan, the happier your life becomes.

[Clarence]

My woman has been very supporting. She is high-pitched and wears little that isn't pink. She has red hair. On the other hand I wear little that isn't greasy/dirty.

We have two children. One is 22 months, the other born last valentines day.

I couldn't handle an idiotic woman. They exist here and wherever you are. In the year after our first child was born, she worked 20-30 hrs a week and went to school full time and, with a lttle help from the g-parents, carried most of the load with our son. Then she got again (lord!) and worked up until the seventh month in the same manner. Now she is neither working or going to school. Mainly just hollering at the toddler while breast-feeding the infant.

She got preggers after we only knew eachother four months. Intentionally, I think. I'm flattered . I could and have held this against her but we ain't got time for that nonsense anymore. What is is what is. We love.

Women are pack animals in general, as we all know. Dr Phil is a bastard and Oprah has a magazine with herself on the cover every month... My mom watches it but my girl preffers Playhouse Disney. :rolleyes:

To all y'all who have an informed opinion... Doodlebops or Wiggles?

[tivodan1116]

To all y'all who have an informed opinion... Doodlebops or Wiggles?

Uggh... I wouldn't submit my son to that stuff. I like Arthur. They speak English and actually deal with real plots and issues on the show.

[Clarence]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Uggh... I wouldn't submit my son to that stuff. I like Arthur. They speak English and actually deal with real plots and issues on the show.

That's funny, my mom and I were just talking about Arthur. I like that show. I wish they'd show the original Sesame Street episodes.

[Seeker_Of_Sins]

I have a solution for you syracusa. Goto www.smilecity.co.nz

The place is overpopulated with women who spend their entire day making and posting in threads relating to babies and womens issues. Its totally ghastly, but may suit your needs. And the discussions are generally heated because everyone has a different view on how to raise a sproglet so you should be able to garner some useful info

[carriew]

I only let my kids watch pbs and their videos are pbs shows and some winnie the pooh. I hate most of those cartoons on nick. they are made for adults...

[syracusa]

OK...this thread is totally not picking up the point I was trying to make.
It's not about who has babies and who doesn't...nor is it about stay-at-home/traditional women vs. working women.

It's about lip service paid to the idea of "freedom of speech", about intellectual cowardice and about good-ol' plain idiocy - major characteristics of the contemporary US culture, from what I can notice nowadays. This is what it was about.

Granted all the fanfare created around the topic of "free speech" in this country, I am having a hard time understanding Americans' (and particularly American women's) terrible distate of starting up any discussion that would involve the slightest bit of controversy or complexity. I have frequented several women's forums so far (parenting/baby-related) ...and there is an incredible level of censorship.

THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!

These forums do not tolerate anything that goes beyond absolute harmony - which usually involves gratuituos compliments made to each other's babies, "supportive" posts regardless of how stupid, inappropriate or non-valuable a poster's statements or proposition is, etc. Anything that is even remotely complex or controversial, that gets to the valuable vs. the non-valuable, automatically gets DELETED.

Instead, posts meant to be "ha-ha-ha, funny and happy" such as "Who's baby is the cutest?" and then everyone gets to vote for the sole poll option "Mine!" ...those are never deleted ...because they are oh, so cute and non-controversial.

Tons of American women are terribly fond of such embarrasing, safe sugaries...so forgive me if I draw the conclusion that most of these women are plain stupid. Instead, when a discussion is started about some really vital issues ...someone automatically gets offended, the thread is immediately deleted and we are back to "oh, how cute our babies are!!!".

I am so sick of this dry, vacuous relativism and false egalitarianism pormoted in this culture...where everyone's actions are "wonderful", evereybody is "gorgeous and brilliant", everyone has incredibly "intelligent ideas" (hence no need to discuss them)...that I feel like I have come to live among the dead.

Only the dead become all "perfect" in the afterlife.

[brien]

Quote by: syracusa OK...this thread is totally not picking up the point I was trying to make. Granted all the fanfare created around the topic of "free speech" in this country, I am having a hard time understanding Americans' (and particularly American women's) terrible distate of starting up any discussion that would involve the slightest bit of controversy or complexity. I have frequented several women's forums so far (parenting/baby-related) ...and there is an incredible level of censorship. THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!! .

Maybe you should come over to the poltical threads. This should satisfy your thirst for free speech, complexity, and controversy. I just don't think that parenting/ babies is all of that controversial in and of itself. I can't speak to censorship in the forums you mention because I am not familiar with censorship in that sense. Now place it in terms of media censorship and you will get a barrage of hits around here. Perhaps if you proposed a specific question, were a proponent of a specific lifestyle, or conducted a poll to seek the opinions of others here, you may find what you are looking for at this site. Otherwise, I don't really think you will get complex, passionate, and genuine ideas around here without sowing some of those seeds yourself.

Maybe I am wrong here, I don't know, if I am, I apologize in advance.

[syracusa]

Quote by: brien I just don't think that parenting/ babies is all of that controversial in and of itself.

Are you sure? Then you are probably not aware of all the "parenting schools of thought" under debate today. There is a huge variation in the way people today choose to raise their children...and it's exactly because it is such a personal, touchy and RELEVANT topic that these women who populate the forums prefer to NEVER talk about it. They'd rather be "supportive" and say "do whatever suits you" rather than having the "balls" (???? ) to discuss the merits or lack thereof of certain styles and methods versus others.

There is no point in bringing up any specific topic here (breastfeeding vs. formula, to discipline or not and if yes, how. etc).

All I can say is that - as an outsider in this culture - I am not at all a fan of what I see among kids here.

They behave as if they are raised with no serious guidance, with little to no values and no spirituality whatsoever. Those who claim to "teach values" they only indoctrinate with religious dogmas but do not teach any human or spiritual values. The alternative to dogmatic indoctrination is complete relativism where adults simply abstain from telling kids what, why, how, in what ways, etc. Many kids become obnoxious, self-absorbed, vacuous, easily bored, anti-social and with cultural (NOT genetic!!!) ADD . That's becasue their parents' attention span itself is very short. Then how can you NOT end up with a nation of ADD-s?

That's what it looks like from where I stand. The sweet, respectful-towards-adults yet conversational, observant, intelligent kid is an endangered species around here.
Yet to see one, to be honest.

[brien]

Quote by: syracusa Are you sure? Then you are probably not aware of all the "parenting schools of thought" under debate today. There is a huge variation in the way people today choose to raise their children...and it's exactly because it is such a personal, touchy and RELEVANT topic that these women who populate the forums prefer to NEVER talk about it. They'd rather be "supportive" and say "do whatever suits you" rather than having the "balls" (???? ) to discuss the merits or lack thereof of certain styles and methods versus others. There is no point in bringing up any specific topic here (breastfeeding vs. formula, to discipline or not and if yes, how. etc). All I can say is that - as an outsider in this culture - I am not at all a fan of what I see among kids here. They behave as if they are raised with no serious guidance, with little to no values and no spirituality whatsoever. Those who claim to "teach values" they only indoctrinate with religious dogmas but do not teach any human or spiritual values. The alternative to dogmatic indoctrination is complete relativism where adults simply abstain from telling kids what, why, how, in what ways, etc. Many kids become obnoxious, self-absorbed, vacuous, easily bored, anti-social and with cultural (NOT genetic!!!) ADD . That's becasue their parents' attention span itself is very short. Then how can you NOT end up with a nation of ADD-s? That's what it looks like from where I stand. The sweet, respectful-towards-adults yet conversational, observant, intelligent kid is an endangered species around here. Yet to see one, to be honest.

Well that is why I said, in and of itself. I was more referring to colic babies or diaper rash. I am aware of the different, though probably not all of, the schools of thought because as I wrote yesterday, I am out of the loop now. But I see the result of the different methods in society that you point out today. Contact Athena, she will get going on this. Particularly about schools and how they were trashed in the late 50's. (Which I agree) This stuff comes up around here, as I am certain you probably know, but it's the political edge that normally gets the rise from the fish in this pond. :)

A while back there was was a thread about C-Sections that was quite lively. Did you particpate in that one? I also recall shool threads getting very lively as well. Is this what you mean?