Nigga - Nigger : Is there a difference? Discuss?

[Osborn F Enready]

(CAUTION) This thread may contain words or concepts that may offend some, but it is intended toward meaningful debate, not insult and degradation.

Please watch this video, and post your thoughts.

(If you are under 18, do not click on this link please and thank you.)
http://www.idleriot.com/media/videos..._a_nigger.html

As many people know, I am not a racist, at least to the best of my ability. I have asked myself questions, because as anyone, I have based my views on my life experience coupled with what else I take in through other forms of medium, living and electronic.

For clarification, I do not view myself, or any particular race, genetically superior, or in any way "better" than another. I believe all races of mankind are entitled equal rights once born and are entitled to defend those rights by all means necessary up to and including lethal force. I also believe all races should be treated EQUALLY in the eyes of the law. After having said this, I feel there is a dangerous trend of reverse-racism being practiced in law, and media hype with respect to incidents like this.

The teacher did not use this as a slur in my opinion, nor did he do it in a way that was offensive except on the same grounds it was uttered by the child. (if he indeed did say it, which who am I to say if "he" did or didn't. I do know it is as common today as the word "man", "dude" and "bomb"(as in like: ex"Dude, that movie was the (bomb)" meaning totally cool, whack, dope, fresh, gnarly, rad, funkadelic, true, hype, neato, nifty and swell.)

I want to know in this situation, what IS right in your view?

Is there a double standard here, and if so, which way should we go here? More freedom, less freedom?

Should all forms of the word be banned, and the speaker penalized for speaking it?

Should all forms of the word be accepted, and the speaker accepted for speaking it?

Do we make a rule on what words we can say, but only based on how they are used?

Where is this leading?


I mean this in the vein of serious debate, not name calling, so please speak out because I am sure many are as curious as I of general conscensus if its honest.

Roger that, echo out. stop.

[Charon]

To my knowledge (from Dr. Tunde Adeleke of Nigeria), the word "nigger" is a bastardized form of the Dutch word "niger", which simply means "black". It is the connotation behind the word that makes it a racist thing to say.

Similarly, "fuck" isn't a "dirty" word, but an acronym for "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge".

[Osborn F Enready]

Charon, I am prompted to ask about its popularity in the slang form "nigga", which is used by many races I have observed in the 13 to 20 age bracket. Do you think this is acceptable, and the other form "nigger" unacceptable?

Should one be allowed, and the other not? Should either? Both? Why?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

If anyone is offended by the word "nigger" or "nigga" then you don't deserve to be an American. We have free speech and words don't hurt anybody. I say grow up to all those out there who are offended by any words and pretend like someone threw a rock at them. That kid that was "offended" shouldn't be offended at all because I'm sure he's used the word many times before, as well as thousands of other students. Yet one teacher uses it in a nonderogatory fashion and is suspended. That's bullshit.

[Scribbler1]

I was told a long time ago that as southerners would say "negro" as "nigra" it became currupted into the insulting word it is today. I'm a big fan of free speech but such a word has no meaning other than as a weapon so if anyone who says it gets a face full of fist they shoulda known better.

My personal take on "nigger" is I follow the Lenny Bruce plan.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I was told a long time ago that as southerners would say "negro" as "nigra" it became currupted into the insulting word it is today. I'm a big fan of free speech but such a word has no meaning other than as a weapon so if anyone who says it gets a face full of fist they shoulda known better. My personal take on "nigger" is I follow the Lenny Bruce plan.

Go to any high school and you see black kids use the word nigger and nigga all the time. Rap artists paint the word in their lyrics every other sentence. If it's such a bad word, why do they persist to use it? Words aren't weapons either, actions are. Come on, you know better.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Go to any high school and you see black kids use the word nigger and nigga all the time. Rap artists paint the word in their lyrics every other sentence. If it's such a bad word, why do they persist to use it? Words aren't weapons either, actions are. Come on, you know better.

Sorry, I suppose I'm just stupid then, because I happen to believe words CAN be used as weapons. You can indeed hurt the unarmed and innocent with words. You can't hurt me, for instance, but you can hurt others and that is almost ALWAYS unnecessary.

Not as seriously as a baseball bat to the head, but words, properly used can hurt.
So why the defense of such words? You have the right to say them and I have the right to be angered by them. THAT is freedom. You sound like you advocate one side only, where you can say whatever you want and everyone else must just put up with it. The real world ain't quite like that and if you want proof, just go into a bar with a lot of large motorcycles parked outside and say everyone at the bar's mother is a whore.

But give me your address first, because I'll need to know where to send the flowers.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Sorry, I suppose I'm just stupid then, because I happen to believe words CAN be used as weapons. You can indeed hurt the unarmed and innocent with words. You can't hurt me, for instance, but you can hurt others and that is almost ALWAYS unnecessary. Not as seriously as a baseball bat to the head, but words, properly used can hurt. So why the defense of such words? You have the right to say them and I have the right to be angered by them. THAT is freedom. You sound like you advocate one side only, where you can say whatever you want and everyone else must just put up with it. The real world ain't quite like that and if you want proof, just go into a bar with a lot of large motorcycles parked outside and say everyone at the bar's mother is a whore. But give me your address first, because I'll need to know where to send the flowers.

That is different, obviously. I am provoking anger from them because I am not only directly making fun of their mothers, a touchy subject, but I am also asking for a fight. And you didn't even go against my argument, which the parallel would be if all the bartenders went around to everyone else and called their mothers whores. But they don't, do they? Motorcycle gangs don't rap about how their mothers are whores and they don't tell each other their mothers are whores, do they? No, they have no involvement in the "hurtful" speech of calling someone's mother a whore. Yet nigger and nigga are used in songs by many, in school by many, on the streets, wherever.

Not only that, but you're completely ignoring context. I have no reason to insult the mothers of the those motorcycle gangs, yet calling your friend a nigger (even derogatively, since I've called my friend's mother a whore once), singing a song with the word in it, or using it in common speech should be tolerated. It's a WORD!! And you can stop saying words "hurt," just say they lower self-esteem, because that's so much more realistic. And whose self-esteem should the word "nigger" lower? The black kid who uses it with his friends everday, the kids who sings their eminem songs with the word in it? Other people who choose not to use the word? It's speculation and thus deserves toleration.

[Lullaby Chainer]

All I know, if you say nigger in my school if a black kid is around.. just prepared to get the shit beat out of you. ^^;;

But ya, its weird. I hear young black kids saying nigger all the time. In a lot of rap songs, they use the word nigger just like 'amigo' or 'dude'.

I think the word has begun to lose some of its offensiveness nowadays.

oh.. but to stay on topic with the title..

Nigga? Nigger? Aren't they the same? O.o One's extra gangsta, I guess. ^^;; -shrugs-

[Osborn F Enready]

Scribbler said: Sorry, I suppose I'm just stupid then, because I happen to believe words CAN be used as weapons. You can indeed hurt the unarmed and innocent with words. You can't hurt me, for instance, but you can hurt others and that is almost ALWAYS unnecessary.

I say:
While I agree with every word, is it "necessary" to have LAWS? Should it be a school policy? Individual or city wide? State wide? Nation wide? Should any race that says any form of it be punished? How strict of a punishment? By who?

Scribbler said: Not as seriously as a baseball bat to the head, but words, properly used can hurt. So why the defense of such words? You have the right to say them and I have the right to be angered by them. THAT is freedom.

I say:
And what "should" be the result of that anger? Violence? Debate? Silence? Laws?

Scribbler said: You sound like you advocate one side only, where you can say whatever you want and everyone else must just put up with it. The real world ain't quite like that and if you want proof, just go into a bar with a lot of large motorcycles parked outside and say everyone at the bar's mother is a whore.

I say:
Whore is another word entirely. It spans all races, all ethnicities, all genders equally. Nigga and Nigger are used toward one racial group, several ethnicities, based on skin color.

My point is, as I think is also Soccer's point, that (blacks, African Americans, Colored Americans, whichever is PC this week) are using the word at all ages, in a "brotherly, or friendly" fashion. They accept it from one another, but they are enraged when a "white" person says it. Is it the same reaction if an Asian, Pacific Islander, Native American, Indian, Arab, Spanish, Puerto Rican says it?

Scribbler said: But give me your address first, because I'll need to know where to send the flowers.

I say:
That's funny. LOL

I am not defending or demonizing the word(s). I am saying it is clearly illogical to me to accept one form, and not the other.

Much like me and my brothers position of "referee's" in sports. I don't care what they call "in", or what they call "out", as long as they call it the same way every damn time!

I would not be hurt if "nigger" and "nigga" became viewed as "curse words" and socially unacceptable, though I do think to make national and state laws about them is silly. Either way, it would have to be universal, and apply to all citizens regardless of race.

I personally think there is too much reverse racism in law as it is, but that is another issue or thread I think.

That is my opinion anyway.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 That is different, obviously. I am provoking anger from them because I am not only directly making fun of their mothers, a touchy subject, but I am also asking for a fight. And you didn't even go against my argument, which the parallel would be if all the bartenders went around to everyone else and called their mothers whores. But they don't, do they? Motorcycle gangs don't rap about how their mothers are whores and they don't tell each other their mothers are whores, do they? No, they have no involvement in the "hurtful" speech of calling someone's mother a whore. Yet nigger and nigga are used in songs by many, in school by many, on the streets, wherever.

The simple answer is they don't mean it the same way. The longer answer is that although you are withing your rights to say something, if it is generally known that if a black guy calls a white guy a honky and a white guy calls a black guy a nigger they are NOT exchanging pleasantries. If you are white you WILL be perceived as deliberately provoking anger. Poles don't like to be called polack either but they say it about themselves with ease. Chinese people aren't fond of "chink" either and you won't make any friends using it toward them. So again, why the defense of words which only have one meaning? Suffice it to say if you call a black person a nigger you know they won't like it, so what do you get out of the act?

Not only that, but you're completely ignoring context. I have no reason to insult the mothers of the those motorcycle gangs, yet calling your friend a nigger (even derogatively, since I've called my friend's mother a whore once), singing a song with the word in it, or using it in common speech should be tolerated. It's a WORD!! And you can stop saying words "hurt," just say they lower self-esteem, because that's so much more realistic. And whose self-esteem should the word "nigger" lower? The black kid who uses it with his friends everday, the kids who sings their eminem songs with the word in it? Other people who choose not to use the word? It's speculation and thus deserves toleration.

NOW you have put in context. You didn't do that before. You have separated the use of it towards a friend or anyone else. What if your friend says he doesn't like it? Yes, it's a word, but this particular word has a special connotation and it's not acceptable to some people. It might mean nothing to you but if it means something bad to whoever you aim it at you wouldn't kill yourself to have a little respect.

I said I like Lenny Bruce's take on it. He understood the power of that word and his was an attempt to diminish it's power. All you are doing is insisting on your right to say it just because blacks call each other the same thing. They don't take it the same way. You don't really need to know anything else.

[Clarence]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I do not view myself, or any particular race, genetically superior, or in any way "better" than another. I believe all races of mankind are entitled equal rights once born and are entitled to defend those rights by all means necessary up to and including lethal force. I also believe all races should be treated EQUALLY in the eyes of the law. After having said this, I feel there is a dangerous trend of reverse-racism being practiced in law, and media hype with respect to incidents like this.

Agreed.

I do know it is as common today as the word "man", "dude" and "bomb"(as in like: ex"Dude, that movie was the (bomb)" meaning totally cool, whack, dope, fresh, gnarly, rad, funkadelic, true, hype, neato, nifty and swell.)[/i]

nigga can only be used by black people to black people, apperently, except a few golden moments for a fly white dude like myself. I sing the blues and was talking to black people at a blues bar who had already accepted me as 'cool'. I was talking about reverse racism to them, well actually, we were talking about racism in general and I don't remember exactly how it went down but I put it across to prove a point and they didn't mind.

I want to know in this situation, what IS right in your view?

I'm not sure, dude. I think this one's hard to judge from afar. It all depends on how this guy said it and There's no video for that. But, point well taken. I believe racial tensions are being provoked to undermine actual progress between cultures. I know you would at least entertain that theory.

I think that the teacher should be suspended if not fired for stooping to a child's level. It's a tough job, I suppose. There's going to be a strike at the largest school district in my county. The teachers aren't happy and the deadline is in two days. A little girl (sophmore) wrote a letter to the paper suggesting the teachers should suck it up and think about the students. The girl got on the front page later in the week (today) when she came back to the paper and reported that a teacher had mistreated her in class because of her letter. The root of the education system's stress is funding. Plain and simple. Can't afford to pay teachers what the task at hand requires. Children are the ones who suffer. Of all races, too. of course. Not to divert the subject or anything. Just my thoughts.

[Jack]

nigga can only be used by black people to black people, apperently, except a few golden moments for a fly white dude like myself.

I would only amend your comment by adding "only be used safely..." to agree with it. Members of distinct groups get a pass to use terms they find offensive when used by someone outside the circle. Gays have this same issue with the word "queer", used in its contemporary context, not in its original meaning of odd or peculiar. I notice when I hear kids say something's "so gay", though after figuring out what they meant by it I am not offended or defensive. But if a straight person were to call me a queer, I wouldn't presume they were just being chummy.
I don't think we need to ban or outlaw words, even hateful ones. We do need to learn when and where we can use them if at all. I have never felt the need to say negro, nigger or nigga when I have a more descriptive and accurate term, blacks, to use. Nor do I use other epithets if I'm unsure how they'll be received, unless I'm trying to elicit a reaction. I do use queer once in a while in that fashion; to startle, to get a reader's attention.

[Osborn F Enready]

Clarence said: I'm not sure, dude. I think this one's hard to judge from afar. It all depends on how this guy said it and There's no video for that. But, point well taken. I believe racial tensions are being provoked to undermine actual progress between cultures. I know you would at least entertain that theory.

I say:
I appreciate the respect, and seeming honesty. You would be right also, as not only do I entertain that theory, but as time passes, I think we all need to look at that theory since I think the passage of time is showing the trend fairly clearly now.

Isherwood said: I would only amend your comment by adding "only be used safely..." to agree with it. Members of distinct groups get a pass to use terms they find offensive when used by someone outside the circle. Gays have this same issue with the word "queer", used in its contemporary context, not in its original meaning of odd or peculiar. I notice when I hear kids say something's "so gay", though after figuring out what they meant by it I am not offended or defensive. But if a straight person were to call me a queer, I wouldn't presume they were just being chummy. I don't think we need to ban or outlaw words, even hateful ones. We do need to learn when and where we can use them if at all. I have never felt the need to say negro, nigger or nigga when I have a more descriptive and accurate term, blacks, to use. Nor do I use other epithets if I'm unsure how they'll be received, unless I'm trying to elicit a reaction. I do use queer once in a while in that fashion; to startle, to get a reader's attention.

I say:
I agree here also, and I think when you speak of "trying to elicit a reaction" you nail the emotion that is hot-buttoned by society, to provoke a "societally acceptable" reaction of outrage.

Do others follow this trend, or notice it at all?

Does it cross apply to other similar situations of equal analogy?

[underbear1]

There is intention and context to be evaluated with how and by whom a slur/term is used. Some hateful terms have been taken back by the minorities they were used against, and have been reclaimed, but for THEIR use only. An African American can call themselves and their friends any term they choose, if a white person uses the same term it will not be without consequences. Just as some lesbians have reclaimed the term dyke, and some gay men call each other fag or faggot, doesn't mean they will act warm and fuzzy when a straight person says it. Minorities didn't create these slurs, they got labled with them by outsiders, so if now those outsiders find these new rules confusing or a double standard, remember who created the slurs to begin with.
Queer I feel has crossed over into common vunecular enough that straight people shouldn't be overly concerned with saying it, in a normal tone of voice, if you drive by a gay club at 2 in the morning shouting queer, that's where intent and context come into play. the term queer isn't universally embraced by gays, and for me it took awhile to adapt to it, because growing up in the 50's/60's that was the hate-term of choice.

[Osborn F Enready]

And this makes it "ok" or "justified" underbear?

Where do YOU stand?

[underbear1]

I'm ok with another gay/lesbian calling me fag or faggot, so I imagine many African Americans feel the same way towards the term nigga/nigger. I also think reclaiming a word used against someone, can be empowering, and takes the stigma out of the word.

[Osborn F Enready]

So you think it should be socially acceptable in what manner? Based on race, or sexual orientation?

Skin color is fairly obvious (in most cases), but sexual prefrence is not (in most cases). How do you deal with issues arising from such criss-crossing, seemingly hypocritical positions of needing to know information to "address someone in a politically correct, but still cool" fashion, but not be UN-PC about it, since asking these things is technically not socially acceptable as the first words of introduction?

Sounds as though it would be quite a connundrum using this "logic".

We all know how beneficial complicated law is......... :eek:

[Jack]

It could make a difference to my attitude to know what the context is.
For instance, a small group of friends-say nearly anything you want.
A large group including strangers-be more circumspect.
On TV or in print-best take the high road and only use the terms most widely accepted.
We use speech in order to communicate with others. If you just piss them off, you've most likely failed to communicate, unless that was your intent. In which case just shutting up is often the best way to avoid having later to pry your own foot from between your lips or worse.

[underbear1]

I don't worry about legal distinctions, if you don't know someone is gay, then it's probably wise not to crawl out too far on the limb with slurs, and if you aren't gay yourself, then act accordingly.