Rich and Poor, Again

[Autolykos]

In the thread "Is America Broken?", under Politics & Government, TheNegotiator pointed to "the gap between rich and poor" as "one of the glaring signs of our failing system". His statement has prompted me to post a thread about this gap. To put it simply, is this gap a good thing, a bad thing, or neither? Here is my own take on the matter. Any given gap between "rich and poor", at any given point in time, is neither good nor bad. Yet I suspect that, among people who view such a gap as a bad thing, see it that way because they believe in a ceiling to the amount of wealth that one should be able to acquire. Furthermore, it seems to be implicit in their beliefs that if one gets richer, another gets poorer. In other words, they believe that wealth is a zero-sum game. Am I right here? If so, let me ask the following questions. First, what should the ceiling be, in quantifiable terms? Second, why should there be a ceiling at all? Third, is wealth indeed a zero-sum game? (Hint: It isn't.)

I look forward to any and all feedback. :)

- Rob

[tman_ndsu08]

Those who don't have money see it as unfair and those who have money don't care.

[Boetie]

tman_ndsu08 posts: Those who don't have money see it as unfair and those who have money don't care.

Does that statement of yours translate to, "Long live the King"?

The reason I asked is because there will be a point where those that have money are going to get concerned that the people will see a need for change.

Your statement that those who have money don't care may be true for the time being. But history has shown the people have made changes and this should concern the haves. History has also shown that the people will take a lot of abuses before such Revolutions.

[Osborn F Enready]

I think overall the gap is bad, for obvious reasons as related to a free market capitalist economy.

In any capitalist society, there will be some gap, that literally shows the delineation between the drive and marketability of the individuals.

The size of the gap shows the health of the society, in relation to government interference.

Our gap has grown, due to a failure to modify education to keep up with technology and the market. It has also grown to over-reaching government regulation of industry where it shouldn't, and ignoring areas where it should be regulating. It is growing due to the black market depth, and inability to speculate on its size, wealth or abilities, and the black market only exists due to law to begin with, which is a situation that needs to be dealt with honestly. ( are laws good to govern human craving if the laws have proven to be counter-productive, and we KNOW it goes against the rights of the individual?)

The market gap growing clearly shows that government is evading the systems designed processes, and the more it grows, the more likely the binding document (the Constitution) will break, as the laws in practice do not resemble those emodied in the founding, binding document.

[Cephus]

I don't think there's necessarily a problem with the gap, so long as it's not excessive, the desire for money should be the impetus for getting money. At one point in time, we had this thing called "The American Dream" where people got an education, went to college, got a job, learned skills, got promoted, bought a house and a car, etc. It was a process to financial stability, if not necessarily riches. Now, everyone wants it right now without having to work for it. Most of the people who complain about the wealth gap are the ones who don't seem willing to work to bridge it.

[Milton Bradley]

The gap is only critical when the lower end dips to, or below the poverty line.


The reason I believe the gap continues to widen in the US is that corporate America can afford to send multitudes of special interest lobbyists to Washington to further their agenda. We the People can not.


So when corporate America was allowed to buy the government, they took posession of the constituents by default. Spoils of war so to speak. Now the corporations are careful to screen potential employees for dissentors, and go out of their way to load the staff with Yes Men.


When multitudes are at the bottom of the gap, there exists a real opportunity for some good old fashioned class warfare.

[Osborn F Enready]

Milton said: When multitudes are at the bottom of the gap, there exists a real opportunity for some good old fashioned class warfare.

I say:
And a REAL REASON to go with that opprotunity.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Cephus I don't think there's necessarily a problem with the gap, so long as it's not excessive, the desire for money should be the impetus for getting money.

However, you fail to define "excessive". Quantifiable terms, please!

At one point in time, we had this thing called "The American Dream" where people got an education, went to college, got a job, learned skills, got promoted, bought a house and a car, etc. It was a process to financial stability, if not necessarily riches. Now, everyone wants it right now without having to work for it. Most of the people who complain about the wealth gap are the ones who don't seem willing to work to bridge it.

The "American Dream" had another name: the "G.I. Bill". That and the fact that most of the rest of the world was devastated by warfare, so they had little choice but to buy products made in the United States for a while.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Milton Bradley The gap is only critical when the lower end dips to, or below the poverty line.

Yet you don't provide us with a definition of "poverty line", so how are we supposed to know what you mean?

The reason I believe the gap continues to widen in the US is that corporate America can afford to send multitudes of special interest lobbyists to Washington to further their agenda. We the People can not.

So there are no such things as non-corporate lobbyist groups? I can list one: Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD).

So when corporate America was allowed to buy the government, they took posession of the constituents by default. Spoils of war so to speak. Now the corporations are careful to screen potential employees for dissentors, and go out of their way to load the staff with Yes Men. When multitudes are at the bottom of the gap, there exists a real opportunity for some good old fashioned class warfare.

What do you consider "class warfare" to be, exactly?

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Those who don't have money see it as unfair and those who have money don't care.

Why do those without money see it as unfair? Simple jealousy, or something else?

Why do those with money not care? Is it because money can often buy influence and privilege?

- Rob

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Boetie But history has shown the people have made changes and this should concern the haves.

The poor have no power to change anything.

The rich make the rules.


You can hire one half of the poor to kill the other half.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Autolykos Why do those without money see it as unfair? Simple jealousy, or something else?

Jealousy. They think that because they are the same species (human) as those with money, that they deserve to have that much money too.

But they don't want to work for it. They want hand outs.

Why do those with money not care? Is it because money can often buy influence and privilege?

Why should the rich bother themselves with the poor?

It's not as if they're obligated to do so because they're rich.

[zynner]

Quote by: Autolykos That and the fact that most of the rest of the world was devastated by warfare, so they had little choice but to buy products made in the United States for a while.

Side note: Far too many Americans fail to understand how they benefited from this temporary historical advantage -- or that "for awhile" is now over.

~ zynner

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Autolykos Yet you don't provide us with a definition of "poverty line", so how are we supposed to know what you mean?

I assumed you were familiar with the poverty line refered to endlessly in the media.

Quote by: Autolykos So there are no such things as non-corporate lobbyist groups? I can list one: Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD).

A rare example of people motivated, and well financed enough to actually have a little influence in Washington.

Quote by: Autolykos What do you consider "class warfare" to be, exactly?

I am operating under classic English definitions. I'm talking about the poor stealing from the rich.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Autolykos The "American Dream" had another name: the "G.I. Bill". That and the fact that most of the rest of the world was devastated by warfare, so they had little choice but to buy products made in the United States for a while.

That's because the US actually produced products that were worth buying. There was a time when "Made in the USA" meant quality, but those days are gone. Now it's overpriced junk, made by companies who don't care, staffed by unions who don't care, bought by people who don't know better. We've still got the "rah rah USA" cheerleaders out there, but they really don't have much to cheer about and we did it to ourselves.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Cephus That's because the US actually produced products that were worth buying. There was a time when "Made in the USA" meant quality, but those days are gone. Now it's overpriced junk, made by companies who don't care, staffed by unions who don't care, bought by people who don't know better. We've still got the "rah rah USA" cheerleaders out there, but they really don't have much to cheer about and we did it to ourselves.

I am not, nor have I ever been part of that we.


It is you sheeple doing it to us by constantly voting Republican, or Democrat.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Milton Bradley It is you sheeple doing it to us by constantly voting Republican, or Democrat.

It wouldn't be any better voting for Libertarians or Greens or whatever. They're all corrupted by the system, regardless of the politics they claim to support.

[Osborn F Enready]

Cephus said: It wouldn't be any better voting for Libertarians or Greens or whatever. They're all corrupted by the system, regardless of the politics they claim to support.

I say:
Oh yea Cephus, I am sure the 3rd parties that can't get a word in national media, or a person in Congress or the Senate, is right along as corrupt and complicit with those excluding them through law, and private lobbyists donations........

I would love to see how any 3rd party is "corrupted" by the system in the same way the two major coercive parties are.

[lsbskins1]

Auto-

Debating you on this issue is like debating some fundementalist Christians on religion. They refuse to debate unless you take as a given the postulate that Christ is our lord and savior. I do not accept your terms. You want to be able to point your finger at me and say "Jealous", but refuse to allow me to point a finger at you and say "Greedy". Both have some level of validity, and the issue is really one of reasonable vs. unreasonable. It's also much like defining pornography. What is obscene to me is acceptable to you. I say, people who control billions of dollars in personal wealth are too flippin greedy. I say, if you can not find a meaningful use for the majority of your wealth, you have too much. Trust me when I say I understand the advantage of the profit motive. But, if you accept the concept of basic capitalistic economics, you have accepted the notion of wealth as a zero sum game. It is the most basic economic principle- scarcity. There is not enough of what everyone needs and wants for everyone to have all that they need or want. That is why things are worth something. And do you think we developed all these concepts like "greed" and "hording" in a vaccume? Hint: You are wrong in your most basic assumptions.

[brien]

Quote by: Autolykos In the thread "Is America Broken?", under Politics & Government, TheNegotiator pointed to "the gap between rich and poor" as "one of the glaring signs of our failing system". His statement has prompted me to post a thread about this gap. To put it simply, is this gap a good thing, a bad thing, or neither? Here is my own take on the matter. Any given gap between "rich and poor", at any given point in time, is neither good nor bad. Yet I suspect that, among people who view such a gap as a bad thing, see it that way because they believe in a ceiling to the amount of wealth that one should be able to acquire. Furthermore, it seems to be implicit in their beliefs that if one gets richer, another gets poorer. In other words, they believe that wealth is a zero-sum game. Am I right here? If so, let me ask the following questions. First, what should the ceiling be, in quantifiable terms? Second, why should there be a ceiling at all? Third, is wealth indeed a zero-sum game? (Hint: It isn't.) I look forward to any and all feedback. :) - Rob

Rob wrote: Any given gap between "rich and poor", at any given point in time, is neither good nor bad. Yet I suspect that, among people who view such a gap as a bad thing, see it that way because they believe in a ceiling to the amount of wealth that one should be able to acquire.

I write: A ceiling on the amount of wealth one should be able to acquire? This is the statement of government gone mad. The day America caps the amount of wealth one can earn, is the day America goes out of business. Class warfare and class envy is a tool of the Socialist and the Communists. They refuse to admit that those who accumulate wealth reinvest it in the economy which provides jobs for those who are taught class envy and class warfare.

The first assumption here is that one remains in the same class in which they are born. Well geez fellas, this ain't the caste system. Education and self employment is the key to moving through the class system. Even someone who enters the work force at age 18, usually is in a higher income bracket when they are 40. My point here is that economic brackets are stable but individual economic situations are fluid. It is highly unlikely that a person who lives and works their entire life in America will remain in the same class at age 50 than they were at age 18.

This idea of someone getting rich at the expense of someone who is poor is another bullshit tool used by Socialists and Communists. I have worked hard all of my life and accumulated my wealth at the expense of no one. As a matter of fact, I have provided work and jobs for others who in turn used that wealth to rasie and educate their families.
I resent the idea that my wealth is a product of the misery of others. It is in fact, just the opposite.

I get so sick and tired of hearing this class envy and class warfare bullshit I want to puke. If someone wants to live in a society where most everyone is "equal" then there are many to choose from, like Great Britain, France, The Scandanavian Countries, Russia, and even Cuba. I would encourage their emirgration to get that person out of our country which encourages freedom and economic choice to be anything you wish to work for in our society.

Today, even more so, a person of minority status can borrow money from our government, go into business, and if they work hard, know what they are doing, and cater to their customers, they can be a economically successful. I have seen it time and again in terms of every ethnic people I can think of here. In Connecticut alone:

The Chinese open restaurants.
The Mexicans open restaurants and work landscaping businesses
The Indians open Hotels, small grocery conveince stores, and restaurants.
The Japanese operate restaurants.
The Thai and Viet Namese people open grocery stoes and restaurants.
The British here open small manufacturing facilities.
African Americans go into the trucking business.

And on and on.........

Obviously, I have painted with a wide brush here but my point is only those who sit around and feel sorry for themselves and look to the government for handouts wish to play the class envy card. Those who see opportunity in America can develop a vision, act upon that vision to make it a reality, and reap the rewards of a society that eschews laziness and rewards hard work.

Don't fall for the class envy rhetoric of the Socialists and the Communists because it is based upon a theory that people are stuck in a "class" and never move up the economic ladder to improve their life in America. Nothing could be further from the truth if one works hard and one works smart in America today. I am living proof of this as I started with next to nothing. I was that person in the lowest economic class and I now have a business that is successful beyond my wildest dreams. I am in the top percentage of taxpayers in America today, living proof that one can acheive the "American Dream." Now all I have to figure out, is how to keep more of what I earn, so I can reivest more money back into society to help others improve their lot in life. :)