Who does bilingualism help?

[King Diamond]

There is undoubtedly a trend towards bilingualism in this country. I don't feel that it is necessarily a result of the immigration of Spanish speaking persons into the U.S., but rather a bid by retailers to better harness their respectable buying power. I am not saying that they do not have a right to do that. But aside from U.S. businesses, who benefits from this?
I do not deny anybody the right to their culture, but by not learning English, they are keeping themselves out of the higher paying job markets.
Also, proper communication in the construction trades, one of the most dangerous fields, is essential. You can't warn somebody if they are about to be crushed, burned, run over, walk under a suspended load, etc. if they do not understand what you are saying.
Any thoughts on this?

[RickSp]

In important ways bilingualism is actually on the decline. Bilingual educations has been abolished by referendum in California, Arizona and Massachusetts. specifically because it slows the rate at which Spanish speaking children learn English.

There a lot of Spanish speakers in the United States right but that doesn't mean that they aren't necessarily learning English, only that the relative volume of immigrants means that there is a time lag. In every period of immigration to this country it took immigrants a while to assimilate. Just as there are Spanish language newspapers and TV stations now there were also Italian, German, Chinese and Yiddish newspapers in cities with large immigrant populations at the turn of the century. If anything with the advent of mass media, immigrants may be assimilating faster now than they did in previous centuries.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: King Diamond There is undoubtedly a trend towards bilingualism in this country. I don't feel that it is necessarily a result of the immigration of Spanish speaking persons into the U.S., but rather a bid by retailers to better harness their respectable buying power. I am not saying that they do not have a right to do that. But aside from U.S. businesses, who benefits from this? I do not deny anybody the right to their culture, but by not learning English, they are keeping themselves out of the higher paying job markets. Also, proper communication in the construction trades, one of the most dangerous fields, is essential. You can't warn somebody if they are about to be crushed, burned, run over, walk under a suspended load, etc. if they do not understand what you are saying. Any thoughts on this?

however, Spanish speaking persons are nearly invaluable in the job market in the agricultural department. I used to be assistant manager in my father's retail/wholesale produce shop, and at least 30-45% of the customers I have dealt with were Spanish. in Mexico, and Cuba and most of the other Hispanic countries, most fruit is bought in open air fruit markets. Hispanics continue that tradition by buying their fruit from the fruit market near their home. so you can see that there would be an inherent advantage to having spanish speaking persons in on your staff. the downside, of course, as you mentioned, would be that you would need to understand Spanish yourself, or you would need a translator to communicate to those employees, kind of the same way my church maintains the Slavic ministry (похвалите лорда, and yes, that did come off of a translator, because I have not got a keyboard.). there are downsides and upsides to it, but I say we should continue being multilingual. sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. as of now, the coin is still in the air.

[King Diamond]

In every period of immigration to this country it took immigrants a while to assimilate.

“ They will soon outnumber us, that all the advantage we have, will in my opinion, be not able to preserve our language, and even our government will become precarious.”

Benjamin Franklin, in 1753, speaking out against German immigrants.

The assimilation of Germans took over two hundred years if German newspapers were still prevalent at the turn of the century. But I'm not advocating assimilation. Many parts of this country were originally settled by the Spanish-speaking and I do not expect that culture to change. I do not care if there are Spanish newspapers or tv stations. I do not have to read or listen to them if I do not want to.
But I do have to go to work, and I do have to communicate with people, and sometimes that communication is essential to the safety of everybody on the job. The fact that companies are able to exploit this same division of language that they promote by supplying themselves with a cheap labor pool only heightens the problem. Ignorance of English also prevents Spanish-speaking workers of from understanding the U.S. Labor Laws that are being violated on their behalf.
I am not suggesting that the Government step in. But a concerted effort on the part of the English-speaking Hispanic community in this country to raise language awareness would go a lot further than crying rascism whenever the topic is raised. I feel that Hispanics in the U.S. are letting pride get in the way of their own self-interest.

[grandpa]

Quote by: King Diamond There is undoubtedly a trend towards bilingualism in this country. I don't feel that it is necessarily a result of the immigration of Spanish speaking persons into the U.S., but rather a bid by retailers to better harness their respectable buying power. I am not saying that they do not have a right to do that. But aside from U.S. businesses, who benefits from this? I do not deny anybody the right to their culture, but by not learning English, they are keeping themselves out of the higher paying job markets. Also, proper communication in the construction trades, one of the most dangerous fields, is essential. You can't warn somebody if they are about to be crushed, burned, run over, walk under a suspended load, etc. if they do not understand what you are saying. Any thoughts on this?

Bilingualism--speaking more than one language--is not a problem.

Grandpa h.

[King Diamond]

Quote by: grandpa Bilingualism--speaking more than one language--is not a problem. Grandpa h.

Please don't nit-pick. I have no use for grammar cops. However, if you have an opinion on the topic, I would love to hear it.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: King Diamond Please don't nit-pick. I have no use for grammar cops. However, if you have an opinion on the topic, I would love to hear it.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, Grandpa is not attacking your grammar, but is making the point that bilinguilism isn't hurting anyone. A position I would agree with. I speak French reasonably well, and it's not for business sake, but because I enjoy learning and I'm not a backwards parochial hick terrified of the outside world.

[grandpa]

Quote by: G. Adams Unless I'm gravely mistaken, Grandpa is not attacking your grammar, but is making the point that bilinguilism isn't hurting anyone. A position I would agree with. I speak French reasonably well, and it's not for business sake, but because I enjoy learning and I'm not a backwards parochial hick terrified of the outside world.

Yeah. I don't know where the grammar point came from. I personally am not too critical of grammar, as I'm a terrible typist.

I am actually taking free Japanese lessons on Wednesdays. I wish it was more than once a week, but oh well.
I'm also considering going to Japan to teach conversational English. I know some cool people in Japan so I'd certainly consider going.

Plus, as a Great Books major, I was able to read books from non-Western countries. Why was that? Bilingualism.

Grandpa h.

[Boetie]

King Diamond posts: The assimilation of Germans took over two hundred years if German newspapers were still prevalent at the turn of the century

Even though my monkier is French. I come from that long line of Germans. It may surprise many how tight we were. I was raised bilingual, English, German. Throw in strong German nationalism and of course protestant upbringing. Not to mention the community I come from were all small business owners that didn't like to mingle with workers. Our church services was spoken in German.

[amana1man]

I think it is nice to know several languages but I hate it when I dial information on the telephone and get someone who can not speak English well enought that I can understand them. In Des Moines Iowa a law inforcement officer was required to learn Spanish after he made a traffic stop and the person he stopped could not speak English. Several towns in Iowa have road signs in both English and Spanish at the cost of the tax payer. Not speaking English also prevents Spanish-speaking workers of getting a better jobs as well as reading safety signs. A casino in Iowa was fined when a under aged Mexican female was found at a slot machine. She said could not read English and didn't know of the age limit. People get a drivers license and can not read English. Then I ask you how do they obey the road signs. Our speed limit on most Iowa open roads is 55 MPH but in Canada distances and speeds, however, are posted in kilometers per hour, and some signs, particularly in Quebec, may only be in French. On rural highways, the posted speed limit may be 100km/hr (approximately 60 miles/hr). We are expected to obey the rules so we must know how to read the rules. I am suggesting that the Government step in and require all people obtaining a drivers licence or a Social Security number to be able to read and speak English. They could be gave a 120 day permit to drive or work when they attend a class to learn the language our forefathers selected as the American language. I say if they don't want to learn English then go home.

[madprophet]

Canada doesn't seem to have a problem. Nor China. Spain has four major languages: Espanole, Catalan, Basque and Galician. Switzerland has four. Belgium has three. India has 22 official languages. 22!!!

So all I have to say, mockingly, is "wah, wah, wah."

[grandpa]

Quote by: madprophet Canada doesn't seem to have a problem. Nor China. Spain has four major languages: Espanole, Catalan, Basque and Galician. Switzerland has four. Belgium has three. India has 22 official languages. 22!!! So all I have to say, mockingly, is "wah, wah, wah."

I think such societies could be called "well-rounded."

Grandpa h.

[syracusa]

Oh, yes, that's the BURNING problem of United States: the threat of bilinguals.
Forget about all the comatose dumbies who would never get out of their narrow, simplistic American cocoon to save their lives. Never traveled abroad, never heard a song in a language other than English, never cared to experience another culture, never been aware that there ARE other cultures. They are the end of it all, fat and happy about it, dumber and dumber every day.

In the meantime, China and India are learning languages and a whole lot of other crap which will make little darling Americans the perfect obsolete product in this fiercely globalized free market.

[SaintLucifer]

As a Canadian I have both pro and con views regarding bilinugualism. On the one hand I would support bilingualism simply because Canada was founded by two nations: the British Empire and France. On the other hand my ancestors within the British Empire defeated the French at Fortress Quebec thereby wiping out the French as the sole contributor to Canadian history. I would argue that French should have been suppressed then as a viable culture during the development of British North America thereby preventing the difficulties my county experiences with bilingualism every day. Due to having Great Britain as a civilising influence of its member colonies other cultures were allowed to flourish in hindsight a sad mistake. We had conquered the French. They should have been given two choices: adapt to Brtiish culture and allow yourselves to be assimilated accordingly or leave the colonies. Since the British were a fair and compassionate imperial peoples the French were never offered either of the two options which some would consider evil. As a result, our province of Quebec has become Canada's spoiled brat. Canada enforces a bilingual policy an Quebec enforces a unilingual policy (one may only speak French there). Allowing French to thrive within Canada's borders is a mistake. You Americans would be well-advised to consider Canada's problems with bilingualism. Now we must deal with immigrants who are even today demanding government services in their respective languages (Chinese, Hindi, Farsi, Arabic, Punjabi etc.) which costs my country billions. Not MILLIONS but BILLIONS of dollars. Bilingualism is dangerous in that it leads to multiculturalism. Those non-British and non-French immigrants to Canada believed that since the French were allowed to keep their culture and language they should be given the same freedoms. Another mistake. Now our cities are ghettoised, split into sections by race. You have your Chinese sector, your Pakistani sector, your Indian sector etc. The list goes on. This creates divisions within our nation state. Crime is rampant in our cities at record levels never seen before the advent of multiculturalism. Our jails are filled with people who were never even born in Canada and who cannot utter a word of English. How does a nation remain united with the existence of such rampant multiculturalism. Those newcomers must be made to adapt to the society in which they emigrate. If they fail to do so then they must be removed from the country. We should never allow division within our borders. Bilingualism and multiculturalism causes this division. Recently in Canada a child of Sikh parents was given the right to wear a dagger (kirpan) to our schools because his religion demands it of him. Yet if say a child of the same age who is of Anglo-Saxon extraction ever decided to arrive at the same school with the same dagger he would be looking at between 3-5 years behind bars. This is fair? Many Canadians were upset. They believed this to be a case of one individual receiving more rights than another within the borders of the same country and they were correct in that belief. All Canadians should be required to abide by exactly the same rules. Quebec as a French-dominated province disallows corporations from completing their business dealings in English. As a result many corporations have removed themselves from Quebec. This has raised the ire of many French-Canadians as job losses result. They lash out at those corporations who have done the wise thing and removed their business from Quebec. They are lashing out at the wrong people. They should be lashing out at their own provincial government. Look at Canada's Western provinces. Literally no one speaks French out beyond the borders of Ontario yet bilingualism is forced upon those provinces. Those provinces become angry at this and they are right to be as it is a costly policy which benefits no one. Canada could count on one hand the number of individuals west of Ontario's border who consider French as their mother tongue. Canada has experienced constitutional difficulties thanks to bilingualism. Quebec has not even signed our constitution as they demand to be treated differently from the other Canadian provinces. They wish to have 'distinct society' placed within our constitution as regards Quebec. This clearly elevates them above the rest of Canada. Naturally the remaining provinces refused to sign a constitution that would allow Quebec to be considered a better society. Quebec constantly threatens to split up my country by continuing to have separatist referendums. They came close to winning the referendum the last time. Canada even has a national party whose sole raison-d'etre is the removal of our province of Quebec from Confederation. This party is called the Bloc Quebecois. Their mandate is separation from the rest of Canada. In many countries such a party would be considered traitors. I deem the Bloc Quebecois to be an illegal and traitorous organisation and should be treated as such. By this I mean the entire party should be tossed into the slammer and taught a lesson they would soon never forget. Our military should be moved to the borders of Quebec. We conquered the French in Quebec once before and we can do so again. This is exactly what we should do if ever Quebec actually goes ahead with the process of secession. Please Americans. Do not call me Hitler for you did exactly the same thing when your southern states attempted to secede. You fought a bloody Civil War so no hypocritical statements from you. In summation bilingualism and multiculturalism are evil and must be crushed. They lead to division and antipathy amonst the citizens of a free and sovereign nation. You Americans would be well-advised to take Canada's experiences into consideration.

SaintLucifer
The Dark Saint

[Kite]

I dissagree. Multiculturalism and Bilingualism may contribute to division and antipathy, but they are not the real cause. The real cause is close-minded people that are afraid of change and see other cultures as a threat. I honestly do not care if there is someone speaking in japanese next to me or if someone chooses to follow a different religion than mine or their way of life is different than mine. In America it is their right to live how they want, as long as they don't break any laws doing it.

However, I do agree with the point you made about provincial governments forcing their culture on others. If the people of Quebec want to see a growth in their job market, they should consider the positions of others instead of lashing out because of their own mistakes.

Also a little tip on writing your posts, when you have everything in a huge block like that it makes it hard to read. Consider breaking it up into smaller chunks.

[CallousGiant]

I think being bilingual is really good, for some people its part of their every day lives, but I find it hard to learn foreign languages (I know some german and french but am nowhere near fluent) and would love to be bilingual. I think the fact that you can have a proper conversation with someone in their language, in their country and in their culture is just great, and more of it is needed in the world.

I really respect people that have learned a foreign language, or someone that has learned english (even if they had to to survive in the country or whatever) because it shows they care (even if only a bit) about other cultures and peoples and aren't just concentrated on their own nation.

And I think bilingualism (or multlinguism) probably doesn't help society itself (although it definately doesn't hinder it) I think for the bilingual individual it can open up many more opportunities for work and travel, almost as if it was a qualification in itself.

[SaintLucifer]

Quote by: Kite I dissagree. Multiculturalism and Bilingualism may contribute to division and antipathy, but they are not the real cause. The real cause is close-minded people that are afraid of change and see other cultures as a threat. I honestly do not care if there is someone speaking in japanese next to me or if someone chooses to follow a different religion than mine or their way of life is different than mine. In America it is their right to live how they want, as long as they don't break any laws doing it. However, I do agree with the point you made about provincial governments forcing their culture on others. If the people of Quebec want to see a growth in their job market, they should consider the positions of others instead of lashing out because of their own mistakes. Also a little tip on writing your posts, when you have everything in a huge block like that it makes it hard to read. Consider breaking it up into smaller chunks.

I would suggest you take a moment to discover WHY our province of Quebec is so adamant about enforcing its language laws. It is simple actually and I agree with them. They are out to protect their language and culture which they have every right to do. Here you have a French province with a small population smack in the middle of two giants whose mother tongue is English. The French fear their language and culture would soon disappear if they did not protect it and I would concur.
Your hypothesis regarding a Japanese gentleman is flawed. Naturally you do not care because your people far outnumber his in the U.S.A. therefore you display no fear. Protecting one's identity is 'close-minded'? A ridiculous assumption I daresay. Suppose suddenly that Japanese gentleman brought over 100 million of his people to the U.S.A. and they speak only Japanese. Surely you could continue to state that you do not care about those 100 million Japanese newcomers? I could guarantee that you would care. The Japanese would become the new minority group and as such decides to enforce a new law making Japanese the new mother language of the U.S.A. This would sit well with you? I doubt it.
In my city of Toronto, one is not allowed to celebrate CHRISTMAS for fear of upsetting the other religions. As a result, that is a part of MY culture that has been wiped out at the expense of multiculturalism. Am I therefore allowed to contact my MP and demand an end to the Jewish holiday of Hanukahh? The MP would simply laugh in my face. How about KWANZA? I do not wish to see any mention of that holiday either. Oopsy. Too bad for me. Who is the 'narrow-minded' person here? Muslims are allowed to celebrate their holidays at will but my people cannot even celebrate Christmas. During the recent Christmas holidays (Winterfest to many NON-CANADIANS) many e-mails were sent throughtout the internet by Canadians telling ethnic groups that it is called CHRISTMAS and no immigrant is going to tell them otherwise. Apparently this enraged many ethnic groups who complained to our Canadian government. It is my opinion that all Jewish, Muslim and African holidays be banned at the expense of Christmas as this is a Christian country. Do you honestly think Christmas is celebrated in Muslim states? Works both ways pal. If those states can ban it then so can we.

Were I to ever realise my dream of creating a fascist Canada the very first thing I would do is close our borders to immigration, write laws that ban all other ethnic holidays at the expense of Christian groups. After a period of time I would ban religion from Canada altogether. Multiculturalism would be a thing of the past. The ancestors of those who founded Canada would be allowed to thrive. French would be removed as an official language. All other languages would be banned entirely. Those ethnic groups who complain would simply be removed from Canada via a one-way airline ticket right back from whence they came. Again I state IT WORKS BOTH WAYS. If their homelands can do it to my people, then we can do it to theirs. I believe this to be extremely fair.

SaintLucifer
The Dark Saint

[Chancellor]

While I don't support educating in their native language those who do not speak English, I do support mandatory foreign language education for all 13 years of school (Kindergarten through 12th grade). This thread, of course, raises another issue: whether the United States of America should formally adopt English (the American version of it) as its national language.

I agree with SaintLucifer that multiculturalism should be eliminated: it's time for Americans to develop and adopt a common AMERICAN identity.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Chancellor While I don't support educating in their native language those who do not speak English, I do support mandatory foreign language education for all 13 years of school (Kindergarten through 12th grade). This thread, of course, raises another issue: whether the United States of America should formally adopt English (the American version of it) as its national language. I agree with SaintLucifer that multiculturalism should be eliminated: it's time for Americans to develop and adopt a common AMERICAN identity.

I'm skeptical of such pursuits. I believe such efforts simply exist to divide people. There is no common American identity, nor do I think there should be.
This is where bilingualism comes in handy. There is an alternative to aggressive attitudes against other cultures and languages.

Grandpa h.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: grandpa I'm skeptical of such pursuits. I believe such efforts simply exist to divide people. There is no common American identity, nor do I think there should be. This is where bilingualism comes in handy. There is an alternative to aggressive attitudes against other cultures and languages. Grandpa h.

So-called "diversity," political correctness and "affirmative action" are things that divide people. I don't know of any other country where people born there go around hyphenating themselves, e.g. "African British," "Italian Japanese," etc.

An nation that is divided against itself (a division you are clearly supporting) will not stand.