Public Smoking Bans

[G. Adams]

related source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3497796.stm
I don't think this has been covered yet, and it's a topic close to my heart...

Recently in Ireland and some US states they have banned smoking in public buildings and it has been suggested by politicians and pundits that it will happen in my home the UK. Personally, I think it's disgusting. The ban, that is. It is unhelpful, hyppocritical and the start of a slippery slope (I usually hate these arguments but here it really is relevant).

It is unhelpful in two ways; it'll hit certain businesses badly and will not help cut the number of smokers significantly (to the best of my knowledge). In Leeds University they recently banned smoking in the Students Union (i don't know if you have a comparable facility in the US, in the UK it is a building full of bars selling cheap booze and overpriced pool tables). The ban was quite limited, it only prohibited people lighting up before 7pm, and real drinking doesn't start till then, finishing about 2:30ish. Despite only being limited to daytime, one of the bars alone (they have many) lost £15,547, or 36% of its sales, when the 13 days before the ban and the 13 days after were compared. Strangely enough the ban (which was a test) was not continued. If this happens at a Uni bar, how much more extensive will the damage be to other businesses? Especially in the UK, we are a binge drinking culture, and many drinkers are smokers, if they can't smoke in pubs, clubs and bars they are just going to take the booze home with them, killing off our beautiful, vomit-stricken nightlife.

See here for details.

It is hyppocritical because the UK is meant to be a market driven economy, even our Labour government which is supposedly left wing has given up on socialism in favour of the market. Surely, if we are putting faith in the market to look services such as the housing for the poorest, care for the elderly and the education of our best in University, surely something as minor as smoking in public buildings can be dealt with by the market? If there was a real demand for no-smoking pubs and bars, somebody would have established a chain of them already? This is why it seems particularly absurd for US states to be pursuing this course of action. A reply I have encountered to this is that of "it's not about the patrons, it's the staff being affected by smoke that's the problem. Bar staff usually take those jobs out of need rather than desire". Okay, fair point. But the same logic can be used to say we should have a universal minimum wage, because the guy working for 50 cents an hour to dig up gold in Peru isn't exactley working there for his career is he? If your going to side for the former argument you have to go for the latter argument. Not to mention that the turnover of barstaff is pretty high, meaning the smoke inhaled while working there usually won't be of great affect. Or if this is your only concern, legislate the need for a smoke free zone directly around the bar, but not the entire establishment.

And this is the beginning of a slippery slope. There is already talk of banning smoking altogether. There is also talk of means tested health care; you only get it free if you don't smoke, arn't fat, arn't too thin, are basically so healthy you'll never need health care. The state has no right to stop me from smoking marijuana never mind tobbacco alone, and I don't think any encouragement should be given to the nanny statists by allowing a public smoking ban to go ahead.

And on a minor point, my govt. and I believe the Canadian govt. does it too, justifies high taxes on tobbacco products because they say it will persuade smokers to stop smoking as it is bad for their health. Okay, I'll accept that smoking ciggarrettes is dangerous to health because a) you inhale the smoke directly and b) most smokers smoke them a lot. But this is not applicable to cigar smokers. Yes, I'm biased because I only smoke cigars, but it's still a fair point. Cigar smokers (real cigars that is, not the machine made crap) do not inhale cigar smoke. The point of smoking cigars is not to get the hit of the tobbacco, it's the meditative pleasure of the cutting, lighting, the smoke wafting around, enjoying the tastes etc. Besides I'd like to see any but the hardest chain smokers inhale smoke from a Montecristo without spitting up their lungs, especially when your on the last couple of inches. Secondly, I'd say 90% of cigar smokers don't smoke them that often. Mainly because you want to wait for the right occaision, the perfect occaision with a more expensive one. They are simply better after a really hard days work, or a great success, a long trek through the countryside or meeting up with long lost friends. It's also because they cost so damned much anyway before they wack the taxes on them. So in countries where they insist on extra taxes for tobbacco products, it should at least be less for cigars, dammit.

[commonsense]

GA,
I find that the various "tin-tubed" Dominican MonteCristo available here in the states do not appeal to me, as if the concentrated air environment of the tube "cures" it to have a different taste somehow.
What do you think?
I did however, enjoy a few very long and large ring-gauge glass-tubed MonteCristos from a special presentation box I bought as a gift for my brother-in-law.
I'll bet you only smoke Churchills.
I hope you notice I no longer engage you in political discourse, instead concentrating on cigar ephemera, you should be proud, as I've taken a page from your socialist credo, at least as regards my choice of limiting tpoics of discussion with you:

"Each according to means...."

Cheerio. Very Truly Yours,
C.

[lessthan]

well what i can tell you right now is New York state recently passed that law where you cannot smoke a ciggerette in a public place. and since that ban went into effect jan 1st i believe it was the business have lost half of their income from people because they cannot smoke inside and our winters are very very cold but the businesses can apply for waivers and they have to show substancial proof that their business was hurt by the public smoking ban. i only know of maybe 3 places that got their waviers and 1 of them was just revoked. NOw banning smoking is not going to stop smokers at all. the way to go about it is charging way more if they cant pay for it then they cant smoke thus causing them to either try and steal them or stop smoking! i also think that smoking does more damage to people then drinking so i am one for starting a bill to move the alcohol age back to 18 as it once was and maybe switching the age of smoking from 18 to 21 and the drinking age to 18 instead of 21. my area is number 1 for underage drinking and im proud to say that i am 1 of them l0l (but dont abuse alcohol that can be very very bad).anyone else like that idea? heres a site against the public smoking ban http://www.nycclash.com/Lawsuit.html

[commonsense]

What about everyone minding their own business for a change?
Oh, wait a minute... You certainly can't tap the public treasury or hire any cronies to do that, can you? Never mind.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by commonsense, What about everyone minding their own business for a change? Oh, wait a minute... You certainly can't tap the public treasury or hire any cronies to do that, can you? Never mind.

Smoking tobacco in a closed automobile, with a child in there with you is child abuse. Been there, done that. I was the child.

AAHHH so that's what happened to you PH. It wasn't a bump on the head afterall.
Just kidding.

[commonsense]

Patrick Henry,
Unless your pop was Cheech Marin and your mom was Tommy Chong driving a '63 Impala so filled with smoke they couldn't see where they were going, I think you're being more than just a bit dramatic.
More likely, you've bought into one of the greatest and most successful propaganda schemes ever to come down the pike.
I sit here in college side-by-side with these kids "earning" degrees spitting back poorly written "reports" on the evils of "second-hand smoke" instead of learning something of academic value, while lawyers and politicians laugh all the way to the bank.
Cash-strapped New York City somehow has found the budget to pay "smoking police" to spy on, and fine establishments that continue to permit smoking clandestinely after the ban.
"Child abuse" is the phony battle-cry of these totalitarians who seek any way possible to ultimately enter your home on any pretense.
"Sin Taxes" and huge legal settlements line the pockets of lawyers and politicians who have finally built a "better mousetrap" or should I say "fleecing machine" that amounts to institutionalized extortion that is above reproach because they have devised the sacrosanct avenue that "all they are doing is protecting the precious children"
What a crock!!!! If any of these really cared about children, they wouldn't tolerate the miserable state of illiteracy and inanity these "college students" (hah!) are in....
Most of these "young people" can barely intelligibly place an order for Popeye's chicken it seems.... Let alone successfully WORK there!!!!

[G. Adams]

Smoking in a car with the windows up with kids inside is wrong, but so is parents not making time to read to their kids everynight, or letting them get fat, or sitting watching the tv all day etc But you can't legislate for all of that. And most smokers I know are considerate enough to keep the windows open in cars (although you gotta remember to close the back windows, the amount of times a burning stub has spun out of one window and into my lap I can't count), and when indoors they'll smoke near windows, or at the very least ask those around if they mind the smoke.

Now onto the important stuff. Cigars. Maybe we should make a topic purely for reviewing cigars, else everyone else might get pissed off?

I havn't tried the Dominican Monties, only Cubans. The two I've had were both Corona's. Well made, good even burn, nice draw, personally the flavour was too strong but on the right occaision I'm sure would be brilliant. I've left the other in the humidor for then.

Personally, I prefer petit coronas. They last around an hour, don't burn too hot except on that last two inches, and are mercifully priced for a poor student (unless were talking cohibas here).

I can't reccomend Don Ramos Petit Coronas enough. They're honduran too, so they shouldn't be too hard for you to get. They are mid-strength, well built and are as good as any Cuban I've had. That said, I have a Monte 'A' in my humidor, the giant 9.2 inches 47 ring one. I don't know if it'll ever get smoked, think I'll keep it for a nuclear war or something equally demanding a world class smoke. I've only been smoking cigars for about a year now, so if you can reccomend a great one I'd be happy to try it out. Might be able to have some cubans smuggled to you with different bands if you want, I've always wanted to see how easy it is. Good money to be made if it's possible.

I appreciate that your restricting most of your comments to common ground. I've noticed that all cigar smokers are more civil with each other than most people.

[Impenitent]

:rolleyes: smoking in public is fine...

what needs to be addressed is public flatulence...

if you are going to punish smokers for smoking in public, we need to use cattle prods on every person who stinks up the place via personal gas...

[commonsense]

Very Funny Impenitent!
Actually, I've heard of the topic of personal flatulence addressed many times.
If its actually true, and it well may be, the great Benjamin Franklin is credited with experimenting with dietary supplements specifically intended to reduce the malodiferousness of one's gas....They are now sold as specialized over-the-counter medicines for those with surgically-altered digestive systems.
Of course, we've all heard of the chagrin experienced by animal lovers sporting all those surrogate cow-print seat covers in their hybrid cars when environmentalists explain that bovine methane is as much a pollutant as is auto exhaust....
News front: Human flatulence is now officially an environmental problem...at least indoors, anyway: Museum curators everywhere are reporting the detrimental effect of human flatulence on the fragile paint of the world's great artworks...

It seems that the throngs of museum visitors are an exceptionally gassy lot, of a particularly pungent variety, perhaps from all the wine and cheese they consume, causing worrisome degradation of the paintings.

Gives new meaning to the term "The Artsy-Fartsy Set" doesn't it?

Adams,
You shock me! How capitalistic of you to suggest profiteering, private entrepreneurship and smuggling! Ah....you've got Politburo Plutocrat written all over you, little red devil! Back to Cigars:

I've only smoked three cubans, coincidentally one was purchased in Heathrow from a lovely elderly Englishwoman who proceeded to give me quite an earful of lamentations over the stifling socialistic superimposition of government on the British economy and their lives... and with surprisingly very little prodding from me, I dare say. ----a Romeo y Julietta, not a very memorable smoke. Those blasted tins again, which you neglected to address in your commentary.

Another R y J smoked in the Plaza Mayor de Salamanca, again, not nearly as good as the coffee I enjoyed while smoking it, which was itself only average. The cigar was rather dry, surprising, since it came from one of those infernal tin tubes again. Perhaps cigar quality deteriorates as they make their way across the pond.

And truly, the best cigar I have ever smoked, impressing even non-aficionados in the general area with my second-hand smoke, another R y J with a curious green-gold ring and a dark but not maduro wrapper, box packed from a humidor. Exquisite.

As far as recommendations, I raved about a Carlos Toraño "Exodus 1959" box-pressed beauty that I smoked in the car and all about town one fine afternoon, not expecing much from the unknown (to me) brand from a sampler gift pack I received as a gift, thinking i wouldn't mind "wasting" a lesser cigar in such manner instead of my usual, relaxed, contemplative way of experiencing them, but came away so impressed, I'm considering a box, but they're not cheap at U.S.$120 a box of 25. I liked the way the box-pressed cigars loosen-up toward the end of the smoke, coincidentally, as i was out and about without my usual practice of using a cutter, I merely punched a hole with the phillips screw driver of the cheap Chinese-made immitation Swiss Army knife I found on the dashboard of my van (I told you I was a peasant despite my pretensions).

Anyway, always a pleasure chatting with you, my Soviet-philic friend. Do keep in touch. C.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Impenitent, :rolleyes: smoking in public is fine... what needs to be addressed is public flatulence... if you are going to punish smokers for smoking in public, we need to use cattle prods on every person who stinks up the place via personal gas...

especially in an elevator...

My earlier post was factual, meant to elicit comment. I surely wouldn't have wanted Daddy arrested for abusing me. Sadly, a lot of adults are cluless alkies (like my Dad) that aren't considerate of the kids. Him and his Lucky Strikes unfiltered. Well, I didn't die from emphysema like he did... I think consciousness of "secondhand smoke" has penetrated far enough that most parents would respond to complaints from the little ones nowadays. Dad never did.

[Pooeypants]

I don't get it, why do people like to fill up their lungs with Carcinogens?

[argonak]

I don't get it, why do people like to fill up their lungs with Carcinogens?

yeah, i never understood that either. i like living, and doing things that shorten my time on this earth seem rather anti-intuitive.

[commonsense]

Patrick Henry,
Ok, now I see where you're coming from, and its a common view that the only partially successful excesses of those radicals who seek to control everything, regardless of their real intent, winds up having a positive effect on wide-scale "awareness" of potentially harmful issues, but this fails to take into account the even broader and more socially beneficial view that there are ways of accomplishing the same good without creating a new set of evils....

case in point:
The herbal extract ephedra.

This stuff has been around for a long time and has been abused as a recreational drug for a long time. It began thirty years ago in sinus formulations like effedrine sulfate, guys who worked in pharmaceutical plants pilfered the stuff. (don't ask me how I know)
It then took on popularity with the diet and body building crowd as an appetite suppressant and could be found in alot of products that even "regular" people might use who weren't fanatical dieter or exercisers.
Of course, the exteme crowd went on to abuse ephedra as a diet aid, and some pretty strong formulations came on the market.
A number of radical exercisers who were on the ragged edge of pushing their bodies along with some really out-of-shape "heart-attacks waiting-to-happen" also took large doses in the hopes of a quick fix to their obesity---when Johnny Atlas uses it, it must be good, right?
Well anyway, a good handful (no more) nationwide of people from both these groups did just that....had heart attacks,
making the stuff look like a dangerous, unreliable poison because it killed both jocks and slobs alike.

This is where the Libertarian message of this story comes in:

The huge dietary supplement market responded quickly, perhaps even prematurely, because it took no chances on losing business, the "typical dieter" market being much larger than the also incredibly large bodybuilder market....
And the industry itself began to stop selling the stuff with the earliest reports in MAGAZINES, which doesn't cost the taxpayer anything, and according to prevailing thought about the stuff, (which I disagree with) untold thousands of lives were saved without hiring a single overpaid bureaucrat who will never bite the political hand that feeds him.
But there's more.....
Almost a year after the big (overblown) scare about the stuff, politicians realized that barrels of this herbal powder could be bought cheaply and used to make methamphetamine, or "crank" or "tweak".
The truth is, I think this wildly pissed-off politicians because the manufacture of this drug is wildly profitable from a legal, wholesome ingredient which they could not get a piece of the action without inventing, or at least magnifying the whole "scare" as an excuse to outlaw the stuff, opening the door to hire more of their buddies, the stinking cops, who are the best voting bloc to have on your political leash, because not only is their vote in your pocket, but they also shake down everybody else who gets in your way.
Politicians hate freedom and free enterprise. Maybe if they were capable, or just as likely less doubtful of their own ingenuity to be productive in the free and open exchange of talents and ideas, maybe they wouldn't be making their enviable livings from skimming, stealing, controlling, redirecting the efforts of others and brokering their power, and ultimately martial power, entering into all manner of constitutionally-illicit , immoral and sociologically harmful deals in order to do so.

[FIFI]

I agree with the writer of this artical. (G.ADAMS)
I live in the U.S. and although from what I understand smoking over on my side of the puddle is less prevalent (and accepted) in our culture than those in Europe, the bans have caused damage to business sales and such. Now, I don't know about others in this forum, but my bestfriends Uncle own a local pub out here in Oregon, and although it isn't "vomit prevalent" or a host to many "binge drinkers" (tee hee)
It is a popular bar, and I think its ridiculous that the owner of his buisness has no say to wiether or not he/she allows smoking in there establishment. Its bad enough we smokers are taxed and hunted to death by the media and the government, but whats next, a law saying I cannot smoke in my own backyard if my nieghbors can see me?
PSHHH... I think the government needs to bug out of our rights, smokers or not.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by commonsense, case in point: The herbal extract ephedra.

Good sidebar. As a patient of Chinese medecine, I have found that herbal formulations can restore my health very effectivly without resorting to outlandishly expensive scrips.
Ephedra, aka "ma huang," is an herb traditional Chinese medicine uses for asthma. It is not recommended for "easy" weight loss or increased energy. Banning it is just more government interference. That said, those who use it for dosing themselves are risking their health. It is a medicine...

And FIFI, stop smoking now before it's too late. Teenagers have a choice. Make the right one. Advice from your grampaw...

[Pooeypants]

I was hoping that the smoking generation would die out but our NHS has an obligation to help them. Which is a shame.

[commonsense]

Right! Patrick Henry.

Before we go too far off topic here, let me just add that not everyone who engages in the use of any number of substances, fashionable or not, demonized or not, well or ill-reputed, is necessarily an addict, harmful to themselves or family, or to society at large, and that the numbers of those who can and do partake of them judiciously far outnumber those who don't.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by commonsense, Adams, You shock me! How capitalistic of you to suggest profiteering, private entrepreneurship and smuggling! Ah....you've got Politburo Plutocrat written all over you, little red devil! Back to Cigars: I've only smoked three cubans, coincidentally one was purchased in Heathrow from a lovely elderly Englishwoman who proceeded to give me quite an earful of lamentations over the stifling socialistic superimposition of government on the British economy and their lives... and with surprisingly very little prodding from me, I dare say. ----a Romeo y Julietta, not a very memorable smoke. Those blasted tins again, which you neglected to address in your commentary. Another R y J smoked in the Plaza Mayor de Salamanca, again, not nearly as good as the coffee I enjoyed while smoking it, which was itself only average. The cigar was rather dry, surprising, since it came from one of those infernal tin tubes again. Perhaps cigar quality deteriorates as they make their way across the pond. And truly, the best cigar I have ever smoked, impressing even non-aficionados in the general area with my second-hand smoke, another R y J with a curious green-gold ring and a dark but not maduro wrapper, box packed from a humidor. Exquisite. As far as recommendations, I raved about a Carlos Toraño "Exodus 1959" box-pressed beauty that I smoked in the car and all about town one fine afternoon, not expecing much from the unknown (to me) brand from a sampler gift pack I received as a gift, thinking i wouldn't mind "wasting" a lesser cigar in such manner instead of my usual, relaxed, contemplative way of experiencing them, but came away so impressed, I'm considering a box, but they're not cheap at U.S.$120 a box of 25. I liked the way the box-pressed cigars loosen-up toward the end of the smoke, coincidentally, as i was out and about without my usual practice of using a cutter, I merely punched a hole with the phillips screw driver of the cheap Chinese-made immitation Swiss Army knife I found on the dashboard of my van (I told you I was a peasant despite my pretensions). Anyway, always a pleasure chatting with you, my Soviet-philic friend. Do keep in touch. C.

If you'd payed attention to my comments you'd see I have no problem with capitalism per se, I just don't see it as the final or ideal era of mankind. When we are ready, which we are not right now, we can move on. So in the mean while I see nothing wrong with private enterprise. Besides, I could always argue that I'm just trying to help to help Cuba :)

By tins I assume you mean the tubed ones? Yeah they have usually not been up to scratch for me too. The only reason I might consider buying one is if I expect to want one at an occaision away from my home, where being tinned obviously has it's benefits. Personally I prefer to keep them in the humidor for a couple of months at least to improve their humidity. Mind you, I've not tried a Romeo y Julieta. Just working my way around the local humidor right now, which is small, and a selection from www.simplycigars.co.uk

Government intervention is not neccesarily socialistic. You should look into conservative paternalism, you'd see that most interventionist actions in the UK can be classified as such, rather than socialist. I won't deny though that supposedly socialist governments have kept up those paternal practices, while the conservatives have moved on with the neo-liberal revolution.

That price isn't too bad, it's what I expect to pay for most 25 cigar boxes. Not really knowledgeable about brands outside of Cuba right now, so I think I'll try these Toranos.

Actually thats a point, which cut do you find gives a better smoke? Right now I've only got this double guilletine, and want to try another. I'll give it a go with the pen knife to punch on my next.

And I'm not Soviet-phallic, I'd be fighting the soviets like anyone else had they invaded (and my not being 6 at the fall of the wall). The USSR does not represent anything like what I propose for society.

[commonsense]

Not Phallic, Adams! Get your mind out of the gutter! i said philic---as in love! you know, francophile, anglophile, etc

I'm really tired right now (what's a British euphemism for that one?) so i can't chat, but your cavalier attitude toward the price of cigars has me picturing you as quite a toff, you elitist ideologue.
I'll choose to overlook your "phallic" retort, i don't want to think of you as being a pooftah on top of everything else.

T-a-a-a!