importance of culture

[Athena]

The word "culture", like the word "love", has a vague and multiple purpose meaning. The function of culture is civilizing people. That is making individuals comform to a set of social expections. From the prehistoric tribal people, to modern cultures, all have used stories and social behaviors to unite everyone, to make all conform, to a desired set of behaviors.

Culture is more effective in controlling our behaviors than laws. Take the stories of Robinhood and Jesse James for example. Both are heroes who broke the laws and the people dearly loved them. We get pleasure out the stories of those who rebelled against the existing power structure and got away with it. Jesus was one of these people.

However, few of us would boldly pick our noses in public and eat the burgers, because this is taboo! It just isn't done and anyone who does it is socially ostracized. Likewise, Mayan ritualized cannibolism, and the western culture we know has made cannibolism taboo. We are not even to think about it! We would not knowing pee or shit infront of everyone, and even in the desert with no law enforcement around, we still look for a bush to give us a degree of privacy. However, in other cultures people think nothing of swatting over a ditch on the side of the road and relieving one's self. The pain of breaking cultural rules is worse than punishment for crimes. It is social rejection.

Now only highly moral people can have liberty. This has nothing to do with religion. Even primates practice a degree of morality, because they are socially rejected and pushed to the fringes of the troop if they break social rules. Morality is knowing the social rules and keeping them. The US manifested a highly moral culture through public education, which transmitted a culture for good moral judgement until 1958. The social ramifications of ending this education are great.

Argue the importance of public education to culture and want happens when a nation stops transmitting its culture. Argue what an amoral society has to do with an authoritarian society and the belief systems that lead to authoritarianism verses liberty, and where these beliefs are learned.

[syracusa]

I have posted this in the "School sucks" thread but it is what I would respond to your post too.

<<Education is not supposed to serve only the pragmatic purposes of "building" something material in a given society. Education is also supposed to help people relate to each other, make sense of each other and their own lives - in other words to give some level of cohesiveness to a society. This is where general knwoledge (the so-called liberal arts) steps in.

It is the shooting down of the liberal arts in education that led to the narcissistic culture Americans live in today. Void and sad creatures, eternally focused on their own image, their own successes and egotistical pleasures, mentally and emotionally detached from others, including members of their own families - which in the end leaves them as empty and unfulfilled as when they started the "self-obssession" journey.

I have lived and traveled in several different cultures but nowhere have I seen such a joyless, sad society as in the US - despite the shiny yet so superficial image of civility, prosperity and that vacuous smile perpetually engraved on people's faces.

I am firmly convinced that the steady dumbing down of the education in this country, the demise of general knowledge and the transformation of women into "she-men" courtesy liberal feminism - is what is responsible for the general sadness and dehumanization of the contemporary American culture.>>

[Athena]

Quote by: syracusa I have posted this in the "School sucks" thread but it is what I would respond to your post too. <<Education is not supposed to serve only the pragmatic purposes of "building" something material in a given society. Education is also supposed to help people relate to each other, make sense of each other and their own lives - in other words to give some level of cohesiveness to a society. This is where general knwoledge (the so-called liberal arts) steps in. It is the shooting down of the liberal arts in education that led to the narcissistic culture Americans live in today. Void and sad creatures, eternally focused on their own image, their own successes and egotistical pleasures, mentally and emotionally detached from others, including members of their own families - which in the end leaves them as empty and unfulfilled as when they started the "self-obssession" journey. I have lived and traveled in several different cultures but nowhere have I seen such a joyless, sad society as in the US - despite the shiny yet so superficial image of civility, prosperity and that vacuous smile perpetually engraved on people's faces. I am firmly convinced that the steady dumbing down of the education in this country, the demise of general knowledge and the transformation of women into "she-men" courtesy liberal feminism - is what is responsible for the general sadness and dehumanization of the contemporary American culture.>>

You said that very well. I wish more US citizens could spend time outside the US and get a boarder understanding of the world, so when they looked at there own culture they would see what is missing. How did you come to the conclusion that public education changed our culture?

Several years ago, we announced a national youth crisis, and I knew public education had been changed, so I became researching the history of education, Germany because we have imitated Germany in significant ways, and democracy since it was concieved in Athens, and my grandmother's generation of teachers were defending democracy in the classroom. I wanted to know what it meant to defend democracy in the classroom and became collecting old text and education books.

I became aware of how the Prussians centralized education and changed the culture of Germany when reading old books about Germany, but I think the problem is much worse in the US than it was in Germany. This possibility sure is worth exploring. I am quoting from the 1915 book, and a 1943 book "Is Germany Incurable? by Richard M. Brickner, M.D. explains how what was started by the Prussians became cultural paranoia.

1915 "The Anglo-German Problem} by Charles Sarolea

"The Southern and Western German is still today, as he was in the days of Madame de Stael, artistic and poetic, brilliant and imaginative; a lover of song and music. The Prussian remains as he has always been, inartistic and dull and unromantic. Prussia has not produced one of the great composers who are the pride of the German race; and Berlin, with all its wealth and its two million inhabitants, strike the foreigner as one of the most commonplace capitals of the civilized world. The Southern and Western German is gay and genial, courteous and expansive; the Prussian is sullen, reserved, and aggressive. The Southern and Western German is sentimental and generous; the Prussian is sour and dour, and believes in hard fact. The southern and Western German is an idealist; the Prussian is a realist and materialist, a stern rationalist, who always keeps his eye on the main chance. The Southern and Western German is independent almost to the verge of anarchism; he has a strong individuality; his patriotism is municipal and parochial; he is attached to his little city, to its peculiarities and local customs; the Prussian is imitative, docile, and disciplined; his patriotism is not the sentimental love of the native city, but the abstract loyalty to the State. The Southern and Western German is proud of his romantic history, of his ancient culture; the Prussian has no culture to be proud of-politically he is an upstart. Prussia is a settlement, an arm;y, and a bureaucracy rather than a nation; but the Prussian is unswervingly loyal to the commander of that army, submissive to the chief of that Bureaucracy.

How shall we explain this startling paradox? How is it, and why is it, that the artistic and exuberant, genial and sentimental German submits to the hard rule of the commonplace, uninteresting, and dour Prussian?"

[Athena]

I am blown away that people have so much to say about God and religion, and so little to say about culture! Our culture is what determines if we are a New World Order as Germany's Hitler aspired for the Germans to have, or a God fearing nation as the US once was. Christianity without education for democracy manifest what we defended our democracy against. Education for technology for military and industrial purpose is, what the Germans had. In the US there was liberal education including knowledge of Greek and Roman classics is. We replaced our liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and years later, elected a New World Order leader who put us a war that could have avoided, and still we talk more about God and religion than education and culture. This is sad!

[Compugasm]

People want to be entertained, not educated.

[SteveA]

Nice thread Athena. People might debate on what details make a culture good or bad but I agree that social norms have the largest influence on people. Governments and religions can influence the culture but ultimately what government or religions are tolerated depends upon general social views.

The only thing I'd like to add is that my belief is that things would be better if fewer people expected there to be a single relatively homogeneous culture throughout a nation or the world, and instead accepted diversity elsewhere, even if not in their own communities. You can't expect a group of religious people to deny their beliefs but it would seem fair to at least expect them to apply those cultural views between themselves as much as possible without trying to enforce them on others outside the area/group/community. Most political conflicts seem to stem from trying to unify a lot of people that might not want to be unified.

[Athena]

Quote by: Compugasm People want to be entertained, not educated.

I could be wrong, but I believe if we understood the important of knowledge to liberty and therefore the meaning of self government, far more would feel motivated to learn. To a degree knowledge is power. To a large degree our willingness to be subject to government, is lack of knowledge, and a sense of powerlessness that we are creating ourselves.

A correct understanding of democracy is it is a constant search for truth. Our dignity and honor are tied to this search for truth. What makes a nation a leading nation? Let me clarify, a nation can have military might and be hated. There can be might without leadership, because leadership depends on a willingness to be lead. The US has forgotten what its democracy is all about, and now has might, but is loosing its position as world leader. This is a cultural problem caused by education and can be resolved with education, that transmits a culture, that pushes 8th grade drop outs to read their newpapers, and to be informed citizens participating in self government. That is as it was. That is not how it is today.

Our sense of self-esteem and sense of power or powerlessness, is a cultural matter, reinforced by political and economic decisions. We can not legislate that everyone like people who are different, but we can liberate people to make their own decisions and this is a step in the right direction. Industry using the democratic model, would go a long ways in returning the strength of the democracy of the US, and education is essential for this.

[Athena]

Quote by: SteveA Nice thread Athena. People might debate on what details make a culture good or bad but I agree that social norms have the largest influence on people. Governments and religions can influence the culture but ultimately what government or religions are tolerated depends upon general social views. The only thing I'd like to add is that my belief is that things would be better if fewer people expected there to be a single relatively homogeneous culture throughout a nation or the world, and instead accepted diversity elsewhere, even if not in their own communities. You can't expect a group of religious people to deny their beliefs but it would seem fair to at least expect them to apply those cultural views between themselves as much as possible without trying to enforce them on others outside the area/group/community. Most political conflicts seem to stem from trying to unify a lot of people that might not want to be unified.

Excellent thought! Tocqueville warned of the dangers of Christianity and this drive to have a homogeneous culture. People who seek truth in ancient holy books and then believe they know the truth, and don't need to look anywhere for it except in their holy books, and must fix the world by getting everyone to accept their truth, are trapped in a terrible struggle. Add to this the victim mentally or being persecuted for one's God, and you get a real distorted understanding of reality.

Cultures that accepted all gods had a great advantage over monotheist cultures. They didn't pit against each other as monotheism does. Truth remained something that is not yet known, because new truths were always coming up. Democracy was as polithesm, with many gods (concepts) and nothing preventing another from being known. Democracy united people with a set of values. Racism tested those values, but I think if we had educated better, we could have prevented this. If we focus on democracy, instead of racism, we could overcome the racism, because democracy is all inclusive.

[SteveA]

Quote by: Athena ... Democracy was as polithesm, with many gods (concepts) and nothing preventing another from being known. Democracy united people with a set of values. Racism tested those values, but I think if we had educated better, we could have prevented this. If we focus on democracy, instead of racism, we could overcome the racism, because democracy is all inclusive.

I agree with your above post but want to point out that the way you use the term 'democracy' isn't the typical 50%+ majority rules variant that a lot of people assume is implied. The 50%+ majority rule idea is probably one of the largest culprits in creating these cultural conflicts.

[Walmas]

Majority rules means that only a majority is represented. In a true democracy everyone is represented.

[SteveA]

Quote by: Walmas Majority rules means that only a majority is represented. In a true democracy everyone is represented.

That would be a great improvement.

Something along those lines is rule by consensus instead of majority. It's how most private organizations operate. It might be unrealistic to expect 100% agreement but simply requiring something greater than 50% support to use police force against a 49% minority, could be a good improvement. Though even consensus allows for people to agree upon some voting threshold. So though it's difficult to get 100% of people to agree on something, it's not as difficult to find select groups that could 100% agree on some method of voting between themselves.

Anyway, sorry for drifting off thread. Feel free to continue, Athena. I don't want to interrupt too much.

[Athena]

Quote by: SteveA I agree with your above post but want to point out that the way you use the term 'democracy' isn't the typical 50%+ majority rules variant that a lot of people assume is implied. The 50%+ majority rule idea is probably one of the largest culprits in creating these cultural conflicts.

I am very aware I am using the word democracy differently from most people, but then most people have not studied democracy. I am seriously trying to get people to understand why the leaders of the US thought democracy is better than autocracy. What happened? All of Europe was autocratic. Autocracy is the opposite of democracy.

The US entered the first world war crying, "Democracy and autocracy can not co exist". Unfortunately, we were somehow blind to the fact that US industry was modeled after England's autocracy, and remains autocratic to this day. Deming tried to convince our industry to adopt the democratic model and they refused. So he went to Japan after the 2nd world war and taught them the democratic model when the US was Americanizing Japan. Japan proceeded to kick the US's butt in world markets. Paradoxically, US citizens are very proud of what democracy has done for the nation, while they no longer understand what it is and how it made the US what it became. Christians want us to believe all this good is because of Christianity, but Europe is Christian. It is not Christianity that made the US different.

I have worked for autocratic employers and thank God I don't have to work for these people. I attended seminars teaching the democratic model to supervisors, and if industry used this model, the citizens would be much happier and the US would be greatly improved. I deeply regret US citizens do not understand democracy, and move to a police state.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

"Argue what an amoral society has to do with an authoritarian society and the belief systems that lead to authoritarianism verses liberty, and where these beliefs are learned."

Well, society has to find a way for its parts to interact in harmony to achieve desired effects. Sometimes there is a shift in the power balance, where one organization is advantaged. But really though cultural identity is something that helps to ground us and give us a path and a destination, it affects our dreams and desires. Our channel for our efforts. You know, there are virtually limitless ways to approach things. The trick is find the right one to achieve desired results in an efficient way. The right diet from available ingredients. The right rhythm to the existing rhyme and reason. The concept of "American man" or "American woman" is a shapeless one right now. You have to consider everyone who considers themselves American. You could'nt consider one thing without sacrificing others.

[Athena]

Quote by: Plasma Snake[D] "Argue what an amoral society has to do with an authoritarian society and the belief systems that lead to authoritarianism verses liberty, and where these beliefs are learned." Well, society has to find a way for its parts to interact in harmony to achieve desired effects. Sometimes there is a shift in the power balance, where one organization is advantaged. But really though cultural identity is something that helps to ground us and give us a path and a destination, it affects our dreams and desires. Our channel for our efforts. You know, there are virtually limitless ways to approach things. The trick is find the right one to achieve desired results in an efficient way. The right diet from available ingredients. The right rhythm to the existing rhyme and reason. The concept of "American man" or "American woman" is a shapeless one right now. You have to consider everyone who considers themselves American. You could'nt consider one thing without sacrificing others.

Thank you so much! I have been arguing with someone that discussion of the woman's role in society does belong in the thread what does it mean to be American. You see I remember when girls dreamed of being wives and mothers and nothing else. Women were literally closed out of banking transactions, education in some field, careers, and all of society reinforced this. It was as uncool for a woman to want to be an engineer as today it is uncool for a woman to want to be a full time homemaker. I swear when I speak of the virtues of traditional values, it is like I am being spit on. This forum is not nearly as bad as others, and is not as bad as the women gathering for a volunteer project at the school. Horrors to suggest a return to moral education and separating the girls and boys with homemaking for girls and shop for boys, and reinforcing the traditional values. The old values defined the meaning of being American, and today they are taboo. This is the result of educating for a technological society with unknown values. Please, does anyone have any more to say about this?

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Hmmm... Do you think the tampon and the birth control pill have anything to do with it? It now gives women the ability to be anywhere when they have their period. I cant imagine how it was like before....
You know it's funny, in other countries men prefer larger women cause of their cultural values and appreciation for a womans role in the home. Larger women tend to cook and nurse their children more; The fact they are large means that they like to stay in one place.

[javier87diaz]

I think that culture is very important because It's what makes our identity and what makes us unique.It's all about knowledge, morals, arts, values, our habits in a society , etc.
I believe that If we all have the same custom, lifestyles, and capabilities, the world would be very boring.

[Athena]

Quote by: javier87diaz I think that culture is very important because It's what makes our identity and what makes us unique.It's all about knowledge, morals, arts, values, our habits in a society , etc. I believe that If we all have the same custom, lifestyles, and capabilities, the world would be very boring.

For sure, our different cultures do make life more interesting.