war years

[Athena]

Today is my birthday and I am listening to Great Depression and World War II music, because this is the history of the baby boom generation's parents and therefore what determined our experience of life. As time went on, our experience of life in the US was influenced by other factors as well. Such as the cold war, Sputnik, and change in public education to meet the new national defense demands.

Someone argued we didn't use sex to mobilize for WWII, and well, my mother was a USO singer and the image of the ideal pin up girl. We have the movies and music of those years and can determine for ourselves what happened.

Listening to the music, so full of love and missing the girl at home or boy over seas, and so much concern about fidelity- faithful devotion to duty; loyality. Like the cursades was also a period of chasity- celibacy or virginity, again concern about sexual activity, and a very romantic time in history.

Veitnam, another very influential event in the lives of baby boomers, was interestingly a time of free love! What happened? Well, "all we need is love, love". Many of us were conceived when our fathers returned from WWII, and then our parents divorced. We were going to do it better than our parents. All wars mentioned here intensified awareness of love and sex! These wars had sexual repercussions, and this has everything to do with where we are today. Any more thoughts about love and war?

[Osborn F Enready]

My thoughts on love and war.

No matter how noble, great or beautiful the cause.... in the end you always feel the sting of the blade.

Doesn't mean either isn't worthy of our intrest or our devotion, just that they both should be handled with kid gloves, and respected for what they are.

[Ken Carman]

War is a passionate time. It brings out as much, or more, hate, fear... it makes some people work together, it pulls them apart...

To me a more fruitful question would be, do wars actually solve anything? Guess I'll go post that now...

[Ken Carman]

Further notes from the article. Here is what they did.

On St. Patrick’s Day 2003, two days before the US military invasion of Iraq began, four peace activists, all parents and members of the Ithaca Catholic Worker movement, entered their local military recruiting station, knelt, said a prayer for peace and then carefully poured a small amount of their blood on recruiting center posters, walls and flag to symbolize the violence of war and the sanctity of life.

Here are some of the charges...

The indictment says that the defendants are charged with conspiracy, “for the purpose of inducing by force, intimidation, AND threat, officers of the United States to leave the place where their duties… are required to be performed, AND for the purpose of injuring officers of the United States…on account of their lawful discharge of duties…AND for the purpose of injuring officers…while engaged in the lawful discharge of their duties…AND for the purpose of injuring the officers… so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, AND impede them from the discharge of their duties.”

Sounds like a vast over-reaction to me.

[xyzer]

War is a passionate time. It brings out as much, or more, hate, fear... it makes some people work together, it pulls them apart

Yep it brings on the "Dear John" letters. Absence does not make some hearts grow fonder.

Today however those who actually fight the war volunteered for the job. In the past there was a draft so mothers could demonstrate, a la Cindy Sheehan, with some credibility. In addition those who serve should be left alone to perform their duties no matter what the anti war demonstrators feel.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Athena Listening to the music, so full of love and missing the girl at home or boy over seas, and so much concern about fidelity- faithful devotion to duty; loyality. Like the cursades was also a period of chasity- celibacy or virginity, again concern about sexual activity, and a very romantic time in history.

First, Happy Birthday to you, and many more.

I'm not so sure about your assertion that WW2 was a "romantic" time. When I hear things like that I usually think this is seen through the eyes of someone who was not actually there. I'm sure there were romantic aspects of the times but the overall picture was that of fear, uncertainty and anger. Separation from loved ones only a couple of years out of High School, doing without many of the things we take for granted and the fear that every day might be our last. Those are some of the pictures which were painted for me by those who lived through that time (I didn't. I'm 53.), and they sure weren't romantic.
We can read all the history we want, but there are few records of the day to day lives of the people and what they felt and spoke of. What an eye-opener it would be to be able to observe the past and be the proverbial "fly on the wall" in the ordinary situations of daily life. The ones that never get written down. The corner bar, the schoolyard and the family dinner table would all show a slightly less rosy picture of American life during WW2, I believe.
Also, I feel an accurate picture of those who loved and had that love taken from them wouldn't be very cheerful at all.

Truthfully, I much prefer your take on it.

[Athena]

Quote by: Scribbler1 First, Happy Birthday to you, and many more. I'm not so sure about your assertion that WW2 was a "romantic" time. When I hear things like that I usually think this is seen through the eyes of someone who was not actually there. I'm sure there were romantic aspects of the times but the overall picture was that of fear, uncertainty and anger. Separation from loved ones only a couple of years out of High School, doing without many of the things we take for granted and the fear that every day might be our last. Those are some of the pictures which were painted for me by those who lived through that time (I didn't. I'm 53.), and they sure weren't romantic. We can read all the history we want, but there are few records of the day to day lives of the people and what they felt and spoke of. What an eye-opener it would be to be able to observe the past and be the proverbial "fly on the wall" in the ordinary situations of daily life. The ones that never get written down. The corner bar, the schoolyard and the family dinner table would all show a slightly less rosy picture of American life during WW2, I believe. Also, I feel an accurate picture of those who loved and had that love taken from them wouldn't be very cheerful at all. Truthfully, I much prefer your take on it.

Actually we have much documentation of the war years. There are many books written on the subject, but more interesting- We have war posters, newspapers and news reels, magazines, records, movies, and books all preserving the moment in history. I have a collection of plastic soldiers and a few of the books on my shelves. I wonder if other baby boomers are as interested I am in those years?

Sometimes I think as a soul I became incarnate for the purpose of resolving the horrors of war. When I say there was a war time romance, I speak as a child of divorced parents. There was a surge of marriages and after the war a surge of divorces. The surge of divorces never stopped, but today we have pretty well destroyed the meaning of family.
I can not stand the thought of war. I immedately think of the women and children and wish someone would lock me in a room until I got those thoughts in book that could be marketed. War is insane and those who support wars seem to be blind to what this does to women and children. That said, we can not leave Iraq now. The insurgency is not just about the US being there, but the political/religious conflict that has been part of the mid east reality for many years. Woo! insight! How much of our hatred of men is really hatred of war? I caught myself saying "damn men" with a sense of frustration with their acts of war. I have seen some women also supporting war, but- but- damnit, please lock me in a room until I get these thoughts straighten out in my head, and in a book. We can not just abandon those women and children now and leave Iraq to a blood bath while men fight for control.

[Boetie]

Happy belated birthday to you.

I watched a documentary about a week ago, Hollywood, Propaganda and World War Two. The one thing shameful about that period was the racism Hollywood played along with. In movies and in cartoons the racism against the japanese is a black eye on American history.

Hollywood did go out of their way to entertain the troops. They had a place in L.A that was opened 24/7 to the troops. Hollywood celebrities would serve, food, entertainment and even danced with troop members. Although I can't say for certain if this was really a volunteer thing, hollywood moguls could have been pulling strings to get the performers to do all this stuff.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Athena Actually we have much documentation of the war years. There are many books written on the subject, but more interesting- We have war posters, newspapers and news reels, magazines, records, movies, and books all preserving the moment in history. I have a collection of plastic soldiers and a few of the books on my shelves. I wonder if other baby boomers are as interested I am in those years?

I am and I know of the written history and artifacts of the times. I'm going on conversations with WW2 vets many years ago and they painted a slightly different picture. This is why I would have liked to have been privy to actual conversations and the daily lives of ordinary people. I'm betting it is not even close to the "Hollywood" version.

I have some stuff too. Odds and ends from my Father's service including an actual unopened pack of Japanese cigarettes. He was a photographer on a Carrier in the Pacific and I have some of the pictures he took. Interesting, but like popular history doesn't really tell a story.

[Osborn F Enready]

Geez, what a jerk. Didn't remember to say Happy B-day Athena, so Happy B-Day to you.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Boetie I watched a documentary about a week ago, Hollywood, Propaganda and World War Two. The one thing shameful about that period was the racism Hollywood played along with. In movies and in cartoons the racism against the japanese is a black eye on American history.

It was common to demonize the enemy and this included entertainment. Warner Brothers cartoons as well as the Three Stooges did war-themed shorts. It's less pronounced these days due to political correctness but is still there.

Hollywood did go out of their way to entertain the troops. They had a place in L.A that was opened 24/7 to the troops. Hollywood celebrities would serve, food, entertainment and even danced with troop members. Although I can't say for certain if this was really a volunteer thing, Hollywood moguls could have been pulling strings to get the performers to do all this stuff.

I'm sure the studio heads would have jumped on that kind of publicity, but they really didn't have to. Patriotism among entertainers was very high back then and a LOT of them couldn't wait to put on a uniform. People like Jimmy Stewart did pretty well too.

[phoenix_fire]

I think that the advent of war forces people to think about their own mortality. The majority of people wish at some point to find love and maybe even marry. Under peaceful circumstances where we and our opposite sex contemporaries expect to live to the age of eighty or so, the idea of seeking out that special someone is easily backburnered in favor of educational and career pursuits. We believe we have plenty of time to worry about it later. Those already in relationships have a tendency toward complacency in believing they and their partner will be around a good long time. War, however, reminds us that our longevity is not guaranteed. Love is considered an ultimate goal and defining part of life and many become aware that they may die before experiencing it in that special exclusive way. We learn to value those close to us because in short order we may not see them again this side of eternity. We take chances with the ones we are secretly attracted to because our thinking has gone beyond the mundane, day-to-day rut we customarily inhabit and focuses on the long-term.
In short, we become far more philosophical.

In some, this manifests in a pleasure-seeking mentality that can culminate in the "free love" reaction. Because of the loosening of restrictions of culture in the sixties, this became far more common than in previous war eras. In others, this manifests in the strengthening of devotion to one person and a renewal of love. After all, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: phoenix_fire In some, this manifests in a pleasure-seeking mentality that can culminate in the "free love" reaction. Because of the loosening of restrictions of culture in the sixties, this became far more common than in previous war eras. In others, this manifests in the strengthening of devotion to one person and a renewal of love. After all, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I think this was more of a pendulum effect and affect. We had the 50s and the culture of the 60s, at first, was pretty conservative and, as the hippies phrased it, "up tight." (Sometimes "up tight" can be a good thing.) I believe if we continue on the path we are traveling down something like the 60s will return. Nothing comes back exactly like it was before. History never completely repeats. But there does seem to be a pattern to these things. Frankly I'm not looking to going too far down either path, and especially not to the aftermath, which would be like the mindless disco late 70s. GACK! :eek:

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: xyzer Yep it brings on the "Dear John" letters. Absence does not make some hearts grow fonder. Today however those who actually fight the war volunteered for the job. In the past there was a draft so mothers could demonstrate, a la Cindy Sheehan, with some credibility. In addition those who serve should be left alone to perform their duties no matter what the anti war demonstrators feel.

Yep it brings on the "Dear John" letters. Absence does not make some hearts grow fonder.

Agreed.

Today however those who actually fight the war volunteered for the job. In the past there was a draft so mothers could demonstrate, a la Cindy Sheehan, with some credibility.

Semi-agree. I would rephrase, "more credible." The Sheehan case is more a mother complaining that a product is not "as sold." It's as if a car salesman sold your son a car you didn't want him to buy, and were suspicious of, and told him it was brand new, safe and an over all good car. You come back to the salesman, or sue him, because your son died in a horrible car wreck that you believe was caused by terrible defects, that you are "damn sure" the salesman knew about in a "new" car that was actually used. But after that several events and "facts" show up that what you consider The saleman lied, it may seem.

The analogy isn't perfect but it will do. Now maybe the mother may be misguided. She certainly has less valid of a case than a mother whose son was forced to buy such a car. But she has a right to pursue her case and the salesman has a right to ignore her, although it's certainly not good for his business especially if she parks it outside with a big lemon painted on it, and if the salesman feels threatened he has a right to have her arrested, although that too has its downside, or should.

In addition those who serve should be left alone to perform their duties no matter what the anti war demonstrators feel.

If your claiming some of these mothers have gone over to Iraq and gotten in the way of the soldiers I don't know where you're getting your information. That would be wrong. If it is your intent that whenever there's a war those who disagree with it have to shut up, I disagree. If these soldiers read about Cindy and can't do their duty because of what Cindy or any protestor "feels" then they obviously have the problem. They have to either cut bait and take the consequences for not doing their duty, or they should get back to doing it. If a soldier feels what they are doing is wrong, no matter what convinces them, they have a problem. Deal with it like a grownup, do what you feel you must do and take the consequences or get back to work.

[Athena]

Quote by: Ken Carman Agreed. Semi-agree. I would rephrase, "more credible." The Sheehan case is more a mother complaining that a product is not "as sold." It's as if a car salesman sold your son a car you didn't want him to buy, and were suspicious of, and told him it was brand new, safe and an over all good car. You come back to the salesman, or sue him, because your son died in a horrible car wreck that you believe was caused by terrible defects, that you are "damn sure" the salesman knew about in a "new" car that was actually used. But after that several events and "facts" show up that what you consider The saleman lied, it may seem. The analogy isn't perfect but it will do. Now maybe the mother may be misguided. She certainly has less valid of a case than a mother whose son was forced to buy such a car. But she has a right to pursue her case and the salesman has a right to ignore her, although it's certainly not good for his business especially if she parks it outside with a big lemon painted on it, and if the salesman feels threatened he has a right to have her arrested, although that too has its downside, or should. If your claiming some of these mothers have gone over to Iraq and gotten in the way of the soldiers I don't know where you're getting your information. That would be wrong. If it is your intent that whenever there's a war those who disagree with it have to shut up, I disagree. If these soldiers read about Cindy and can't do their duty because of what Cindy or any protestor "feels" then they obviously have the problem. They have to either cut bait and take the consequences for not doing their duty, or they should get back to doing it. If a soldier feels what they are doing is wrong, no matter what convinces them, they have a problem. Deal with it like a grownup, do what you feel you must do and take the consequences or get back to work.

If my son were sent to Iraq, I would be a more aggressive war protester. It blows me away that women have been so passive about sending the son's to war. How can they sit at home and get on with their lives, while their sons and daughters are in a combat situation?
If we were invaded, I would be doing all in my power to defend against the enemy. Why? not because my own life is that important, but the lives of those I love are that important to me. By what logic does a mother send her son to a war that could be avoided?

I have wondered and wondered if mothers could sue the government for false or misleading advertizing, because of the commericals on TV that clearly misrepresent being enlisted in the National Gaurd. Those who enlist in the army, navy or air force, I think should assume they will be sent to combat, but the National Gaurd? I never thought of the National Gaurd being used as an invading army or occupying force, and this is not how the National Gaurd is represented in TV commericals. I think civilians have a good case for a law suit.

[Athena]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I think that the advent of war forces people to think about their own mortality. The majority of people wish at some point to find love and maybe even marry. Under peaceful circumstances where we and our opposite sex contemporaries expect to live to the age of eighty or so, the idea of seeking out that special someone is easily backburnered in favor of educational and career pursuits. We believe we have plenty of time to worry about it later. Those already in relationships have a tendency toward complacency in believing they and their partner will be around a good long time. War, however, reminds us that our longevity is not guaranteed. Love is considered an ultimate goal and defining part of life and many become aware that they may die before experiencing it in that special exclusive way. We learn to value those close to us because in short order we may not see them again this side of eternity. We take chances with the ones we are secretly attracted to because our thinking has gone beyond the mundane, day-to-day rut we customarily inhabit and focuses on the long-term. In short, we become far more philosophical. In some, this manifests in a pleasure-seeking mentality that can culminate in the "free love" reaction. Because of the loosening of restrictions of culture in the sixties, this became far more common than in previous war eras. In others, this manifests in the strengthening of devotion to one person and a renewal of love. After all, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I very much appreciate your comments about what WWII did to us mentally and emotionally. I know people rushed to get married and that following the war there were many divorces, and this was the beginning of tearing apart the fabric of our nation. I feel very sad about our lost family way of life, and transformation into such a materialistic, self centered society, that it seems futile to speak of how cold and deadly this is.

I keep a book near me, "We Had Everything But Money", to remind me of the Depression years when all most people had was each other. How different the 1970 recession was, when for real economic reasons many lost everything, only this time, we blamed the poor for our economic troubles, instead of the cause of the recession. Going from a time when home and family was the center of people lives, to being separated by war, must have been a terrible shock to the psychi. Today, when home and family is not the center of the people's lives, I think it easier to go war. Especially the young men, expressing delight with driving tanks and flying planes, as though war were another form of Disneyland entertainment concern me. Are they killing people with as much detachment from the reality of war? I am frightened for the world, when I look at US today.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Athena If my son were sent to Iraq, I would be a more aggressive war protester. It blows me away that women have been so passive about sending the son's to war. How can they sit at home and get on with their lives, while their sons and daughters are in a combat situation? If we were invaded, I would be doing all in my power to defend against the enemy. Why? not because my own life is that important, but the lives of those I love are that important to me. By what logic does a mother send her son to a war that could be avoided? I have wondered and wondered if mothers could sue the government for false or misleading advertizing, because of the commericals on TV that clearly misrepresent being enlisted in the National Gaurd. Those who enlist in the army, navy or air force, I think should assume they will be sent to combat, but the National Gaurd? I never thought of the National Gaurd being used as an invading army or occupying force, and this is not how the National Gaurd is represented in TV commericals. I think civilians have a good case for a law suit.

I have had similar thoughts in regard to the Guard. I did a column on it last week. You may enjoy it. Just click... HERE

[Athena]

Quote by: Ken Carman I have had similar thoughts in regard to the Guard. I did a column on it last week. You may enjoy it. Just click... HERE

I read your opinion piece, and what came to mind is we are not all this war in Iraq, as we were in the world wars. This war is being fought without disturbing our morning coffee and that is not how the world wars were. Those world wars touched everyone's lives. People were forced to conserve and forced to make sacrifices and do without. Somehow wars that don't require this of us, seem even more immoral to me. Here we are affluent, over protected and endulging ourselves in things we really do not need, while our actions have resulted in innocents people's lives being devastated with war and on going war conditions.

Come on where is our sacfrice? Shouldn't give up at least something? Not the taxes that we no longer control, but something that makes us notice everyday, we are at war and people are dying. I want a national daily reminder, so we can not pass through devastating the lives of people in another country, without being conscious of what war does to people's lives. In previous wars, women learned to substitute corn meal for flour, and grow victory gardens, because we were feeding the alies. Rubber was rationed when that was what tires were made of, and we aren't even rationing gasoline. Going painlessly through a war is just wrong, and if we aren't willing to sacrifice to engage in war, than we sure as blazes shouldn't be in a war.

[Athena]

Quote by: Scribbler1 It was common to demonize the enemy and this included entertainment. Warner Brothers cartoons as well as the Three Stooges did war-themed shorts. It's less pronounced these days due to political correctness but is still there. I'm sure the studio heads would have jumped on that kind of publicity, but they really didn't have to. Patriotism among entertainers was very high back then and a LOT of them couldn't wait to put on a uniform. People like Jimmy Stewart did pretty well too.

Problem this time around is we can not demonize the Iraqi people. They were never our declared enemy. We are suppose to be liberating them. Our government has failed miserably to create an enemy. "Terrorist" won't do, because Israel and ourselves have been the terrorizers. "Shock and Awe" was suppose to terrorize people and make them easy to subdue, and that came after 5 years of sanctions that weakened Iraq. I just do not see any honor in what we have done. And it really hurts knowing there was a strong desire to take out Sadam before 9/11 and that he was not working with Bin Ladin, so our invasion of Iraq was not justified on the given grounds and not international supported.

Not to mention no one knows what democracy is anymore and way it has to be defended.
How can people who don't know what democracy is, get enthusiastic about spreading it to another country, a country where people didn't pay taxes and some ways had a lot more freedom than we do? Isn't it confusing to be in war to spread democracy, against an enemy that isn't the people we are suppose to be liberating? How can Disnney make a cartoon about this?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Athena Problem this time around is we can not demonize the Iraqi people. They were never our declared enemy. We are suppose to be liberating them. Our government has failed miserably to create an enemy. "Terrorist" won't do, because Israel and ourselves have been the terrorizers. "Shock and Awe" was suppose to terrorize people and make them easy to subdue, and that came after 5 years of sanctions that weakened Iraq. I just do not see any honor in what we have done. And it really hurts knowing there was a strong desire to take out Sadam before 9/11 and that he was not working with Bin Ladin, so our invasion of Iraq was not justified on the given grounds and not international supported.

You are right, we can't demonize ANYONE in this war, so we have taken to branding anyone outside this country who doesn't like us either terrorist or terrorist supporter. It's weak and it's lame and more and more people aren't buying it any more.

Not to mention no one knows what democracy is anymore and way it has to be defended.

In this context, Democracy is a word, nothing more. It is a grand word that is supposed to make us look like the most benevolent people on the planet. The problem is that ANY government is only supposed to do things in the interest of its own country. Running up a huge debt and wasting the lives of our soldiers to "democratize" a people who never ASKED us to do this is NOT in our nation's self interest. Also (reason #2) to claim we are fighting terrorism that didn't HAVE terrorists under the old regime is astounding. Terrorists have one big thing going for them For one, they wear no uniform. For another thing, they are a lot more MOBILE than any army, and since the country of Iraq isn't going anywhere it stands to reason no terrorist will want to STAY there, especially when the U.S. has an army right there LOOKING for them. I don't care what the administration says, these stories coming from Washington defy all logic and common sense.
It is also quite counterproductive to establish a free, self-governing society in a region that hates our guts. The very essence of self interest is for the Iraqis to tell us to stay the hell AWAY from them just as soon as they get that self-governance because so many of their citizens despise us.

How can people who don't know what democracy is, get enthusiastic about spreading it to another country, a country where people didn't pay taxes and some ways had a lot more freedom than we do?

Good point. They can't, actually. Look at the political polarization in THIS country! The only real difference between American right and left wingers and the Sunnis and Shiites is our left and right don't shoot each other. We don't completely have it together so it is insane to think we can TEACH a foreign society to enjoy "democracy".
The only conclusion to come to is that there is a very big ulterior motive and the whole "freedom for Iraq" thing is a lie, or this is just a face-saving measure to cover the fact that we were completely unprepared and ill equipped to carry out a war in a country about the size of California.

How can Disnney make a cartoon about this?

Disney? Maybe Ralph Bakshi could do it justice.