Are Christians oppressed?

[terstorm]

This is more of a question that I've been mulling over in my head. Actually it's two questions, because there are two parts to it.

1. Are American Christians oppressed? I often hear from Christians that they feel they are oppressed, even though they likely make up a supermajority of the American population.

2. Are Christians worldwide oppressed? I hear this often too although I think there's about two billion of them.

Thoughts?

[Pooeypants]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (terstorm,)
This is more of a question that I've been mulling over in my head. Actually it's two questions, because there are two parts to it.

1. Are American Christians oppressed? I often hear from Christians that they feel they are oppressed, even though they likely make up a supermajority of the American population.

2. Are Christians worldwide oppressed? I hear this often too although I think there's about two billion of them.

Thoughts?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Just how exactly are they oppressed?...

[Edge]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (terstorm,)

1. Are American Christians oppressed? I often hear from Christians that they feel they are oppressed, even though they likely make up a supermajority of the American population.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
The only way to make the case that Christians make up a supermajority is to make the reference to "cultural" Christianity. That is, I am a Christian because my father went to church, was baptized as an infant, have a Christian name, am on the church role somewhere (belive me ~ 64.35476% of america in on a church role somewhere. Once you get on, you never get off.), but it has no effect on my lifestyle or what I believe as an individual. If you consider Christianity as an active religion that influences lifestyle, the numbers are pitifully small.

[terstorm]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Edge,)
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (terstorm,)

1. Are American Christians oppressed? I often hear from Christians that they feel they are oppressed, even though they likely make up a supermajority of the American population.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
The only way to make the case that Christians make up a supermajority is to make the reference to "cultural" Christianity. That is, I am a Christian because my father went to church, was baptized as an infant, have a Christian name, am on the church role somewhere (belive me ~ 64.35476% of america in on a church role somewhere. Once you get on, you never get off.), but it has no effect on my lifestyle or what I believe as an individual. If you consider Christianity as an active religion that influences lifestyle, the numbers are pitifully small.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I see what you mean. Lots of Easter Christians (my pastor would always make note of this back when I was a church goer) but during the year just the regulars.

[gem]

Christians must feel oppressed, if for no other reason than that is how they are supposed to feel. The Roman historians, who witnessed the formation, described it as "a superstitious hatred of all mankind." That does not mean that this what the Romans expected it to remain, though it is sadly not yet become more than that. The unusual thing about Christianity that is not appreciated is that it is testable. That is, it contains a way of measuring the improvement necessary to the working out of salvation. Romans and only Romans had a word for superstition and another separate word for religion. Christianity - practiced by the followers of Christus, was the superstition. But the Romans used another word to describe the religion (which could produce redemption - key to human perfectibility).

The Romans held that religion served the state and promoted virtue necessary to the well being of all. So the test provided in the Greek Bible is the presentation of a situation in which one chooses salvation for oneself (superstition - always ending in depravity) or one chooses to help another at the risk of one's own salvation. Christians are taught to pray for something that they have yet to realize is in front of them and has been 2000 years now. That cognitive dissonance is the cause of Christian mental and emotional disorder. How well I know this. If you know the Lord's prayer, you can see this.

[laserkid]

Are christians Opressed in the US? No, we're not. We're told to shut up a lot, but thats not really opression in my book.

IS there opression against my fellow Christians around the world? In SOME parts there are, and some there aren't.

[gem]

It has been often noted that the core teaching of Jesus is the same as in other systems - treat others as you wish yourself to be treated. When Origen in the second or third century said that universal salvation was possible, he was close to breaking through. That is, if he had used the Greek Bible to illustrate universal salvation in the machinery of Revelation, the unique nature of the system would have become evident. The superstition would fall away and the religion would come about - a new creature. But the problem with that view is that the errors of the conformist superstition would stop the flow into the coffers. It was a money machine, from the beginning. It is historic fact that things were so bad that one of the first act of the first Christian emperor was to prohibit the priests from accepting inheritances. Marriage was later prohibited for priests for similar reasons.

At any rate, Justinian I made Christianity safe from people like Origen. Procopius, Justinian's secretary, said that Justinian slaughtered thousands of thousands of thousands in the process. Today many Christian scholars regret that Origen's virtuous effort was outlawed by Justinian and the church, but fail to see that it is the superstition most of all that oppresses Christians, since they willingly now follow the edicts of a depraved and very bloody murderer. Not of course for fear of Justinian's revenge, but out of lack of faith. Origen's effort, which could be called Chrestian, was bad for the money side of the business. Only in the past few generations have we been free enough from the church state enforcement team to speak of the things Origen and others did so many centuries ago. Yet now. Christians have generally generated a lack of interest in the Greek Bible. What a crying shame it is that such remarkable questions posed by Jesus are unavailable to the world for the layers superstition the church has covered the Greek Bible with. Such a shame that the vital difference between this system and all the others is so obscured by the conceit of the people who claim it as theirs. The Greek Bible works - the questions there (and they are obvious) point to the choice we must make to get safety for ourselves or to risk our safety for one who obviously is in trouble. The Romans had a saying - When one is protected, all are safe. The one person Origen way would have helped is still there and still in as much need some 17 centuries later. Self-oppressed though Christians are, I know that they can one day see the importance of Origen's effort. They can benefit the world and be a light in it.

[lcswoosh]

Christians are in no way discriminated against in the U.S. In other parts of the world, sure.

[Edge]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (lcswoosh,)
Christians are in no way discriminated against in the U.S. In other parts of the world, sure.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
If faith is a personal thing, (and I'm assuming you think that to be true), then would forcing Children to worship something/someone other than their God be oppression?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=28146
To sumarize the link: California curricula now forces school children to undergo what is a tacit indoctrination into Islam.

[Impenitent]

I think christianity is a stupidity... but be honest...

try being a christian in public school and tell me about discrimination...

public nativity scenes?

you can have the city minora or star and crescent but try to have a christian display and it's aclu law suits all day long...

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If you consider Christianity as an active religion that influences lifestyle, the numbers are pitifully small.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

How do you figure? I will grant that there are some who are not fervent in their belief, and even some small minority that fits into your description that you appear to believe accounts for the overwhelming majority of Xns in the US, but any census about practicing Xns will still reveal that they are a supermajority.

Are Xns oppressed? Not in the slightest. Are Xns oppressors? Sure. When was the last time a rational person was put into office?

[james?]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,)
How do you figure? I will grant that there are some who are not fervent in their belief, and even some small minority that fits into your description that you appear to believe accounts for the overwhelming majority of Xns in the US, but any census about practicing Xns will still reveal that they are a supermajority.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Are you serious? I know tons and tons of people that just go to church on holidays... and anyways, just going to church doesn't necessarily make you a true Christian by any means.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,)
Are Xns oppressed? Not in the slightest.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

How about not being able to pray or discuss their beliefs in public schools? And how about those same schools teaching the big bang and evolution? You can say that Christians can just go to their own schools, but being barred from free schooling simply because these schools feel they have a right to make these students mandatorily learn beliefs that are so foreign and conflicting with theirs, I call that oppression.

Anyways, I think the future will hold much greater prejudice against Christians, where the "Easter Christians" will assimilate with pagan society while true Christianity is driven underground.

[terstorm]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (james?,)


How about not being able to pray or discuss their beliefs in public schools? And how about those same schools teaching the big bang and evolution? You can say that Christians can just go to their own schools, but being barred from free schooling simply because these schools feel they have a right to make these students mandatorily learn beliefs that are so foreign and conflicting with theirs, I call that oppression.

Anyways, I think the future will hold much greater prejudice against Christians, where the "Easter Christians" will assimilate with pagan society while true Christianity is driven underground.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I somehow doubt that. One, I actually see the opposite (at least in the US, that is). Every third person I seem to run into is an "evangelical." Religious movements on college campuses are stronger than people think. I'm pretty sure that Mel's Passion movie will probably gross as one of the highest ever.

As for public schools teaching the big bang and evolution, what's the problem with that? Frankly, when I have kids I want them learning that. They can learn creationism in Sunday School if me and my spouse choose to do that. And we'll have whatever religious text the kids want to read around. The wonderful thing about education is that you don't have to agree with what you're learning. In fact, my best classes in high school were when the Christians would argue with the biology teacher over evolution. I learned much more, because it sparked debate. And believe it or not, they weren't oppressed, sent home, or anything when they did. Noone stopped them every morning from praying at the flagpole on school property.

Schools are supposed to provide a comprehensive education---regardless if the people agree with them or not. I certainly didn't agree with taking gym class but I did it anyway.

Maybe it's becasue the state I live in trends conservative, but I really don't see oppression of Christians. The president always says God Bless America. Those people who pass out The Watchtower aren't shooed away from giving out information to commuters on the train in the morning (at least not in UpperDarby,PA they're not). I never saw it in public school. I certainly don't see it at the public university I go to.

[james?]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (terstorm,)
As for public schools teaching the big bang and evolution, what's the problem with that? Frankly, when I have kids I want them learning that. They can learn creationism in Sunday School if me and my spouse choose to do that. And we'll have whatever religious text the kids want to read around. The wonderful thing about education is that you don't have to agree with what you're learning. In fact, my best classes in high school were when the Christians would argue with the biology teacher over evolution. I learned much more, because it sparked debate. And believe it or not, they weren't oppressed, sent home, or anything when they did. Noone stopped them every morning from praying at the flagpole on school property.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Where I go (and I thought this tended to be a national trend), teachers just aren't allowed to discuss religion. There wouldn't be any teacher-Christian arguments because it'd be prevented before anyone was allowed to bring up a conflicting point.

And if you want your kids learning evolution and the big bang, that's great, that serves you absolutely no problem, but what about Christians? Why can't they have any sort of religious-science, Christian-science, or even any class that incorporates creationism?

Sure you don't have to believe what you're taught, you don't have to do anything, but that doesn't seem to stop some students from believing their teachers are all-knowing and proprietors of absolute truth--especially when these students are young.

Now, why I'm arguing that Christians are oppressed in public schools is because both sides are not brought up, and because debate is not encouraged. I have no problem with evolution and big bang and whatnot being taught in schools as long as the opposing side is also represented (with curriculum, not some chance debate).

[gem]

James?
Christians oppress believers yet complain that they are not given equal time/opportunity in public education. What if I, a believer, want the Bible taught in an honest way? What if the questions Jesus raises are questions I want addressed in public school. Would you allow that? I don't think so. Your Christianity probably prevents you from the honest approach the Greek Bible deserves. For centuries Christians required Jews to participate in "disputations". Jews had to be careful not to do too well, because there is not much that is more vicious than a Christian that has been exposed as a self-serving hypocrite. But the Jews had to hold their own well enough so as to show they still had a reason for refusing baptism and conversion. This left Christendom with the impression that Christians knew their stuff. But they don't and I will gladly demonstrate that to you if you like. Like Jesus said, Jews know what they worship. Christians, as recorded, do not. Perhaps they don't care either. When you want to bring the Bible into the public classroom, be warned that you may not be happy with the result.

gem

[james?]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gem,)
James?
Christians oppress believers yet complain that they are not given equal time/opportunity in public education. What if I, a believer, want the Bible taught in an honest way? What if the questions Jesus raises are questions I want addressed in public school. Would you allow that? I don't think so. Your Christianity probably prevents you from the honest approach the Greek Bible deserves. For centuries Christians required Jews to participate in "disputations". Jews had to be careful not to do too well, because there is not much that is more vicious than a Christian that has been exposed as a self-serving hypocrite. But the Jews had to hold their own well enough so as to show they still had a reason for refusing baptism and conversion. This left Christendom with the impression that Christians knew their stuff. But they don't and I will gladly demonstrate that to you if you like. Like Jesus said, Jews know what they worship. Christians, as recorded, do not. Perhaps they don't care either. When you want to bring the Bible into the public classroom, be warned that you may not be happy with the result.

gem<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Oh, I think you got me all wrong. I haven't even made it apparent of whether or not I'm a Christian--and to tell the truth, I really don't know myself. I'm all for honest interpretation of the Bible, and I do oppose organized religion and where it's been heading, where it is, and where it's now heading.

I agree with you that most Christians don't really care about or understand their worship, because it simply isn't brought up in most cases. As for bringing the Bible, in honest interpretation, to public classrooms--I'd be all for it. In my last post I was more on terms with creationism vs. evolution in schools, but I think it would be great to bring some theology classes to public schools. However, I think it'd be best to bring honest interpretation of the Bible and of the word of God to Christians and churches first.

[gem]

James?
Creationism is not the opposing side, but is part of an effort to prop up what Thomas Paine accurately described as the "amphibious fraud" of Christianity. That is, the literal belief in the miraculous (such as the serpent speaking to Eve) is essential to the superstition of Christianity. As Plutarch pointed out 2000 years ago, the literal belief in such stuff is not productive of anything good. So what I am saying is that literal superstitious belief is hardly fair or honest. It is the product of conceit. In order to present creationism properly, the depravity of its origins would need to be explored.

Why expose children to a war zone of a struggle that is not any of their making?

gem

[james?]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gem,)
In order to present creationism properly, the depravity of its origins would need to be explored.

Why expose children to a war zone of a struggle that is not any of their making?

gem<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Go on, I don't really get where you're coming from.

[gem]

James?

Brentano said that religion is teaching philosophy through mystery. You can probably think of stories for children that have fanciful elements, which though not possible in the real world, are important to the point or lesson of the story. Frankenstein is a perfect example of this that everyone knows in some way. But to make the fanciful element the important thing above and beyond understanding the purpose of the story, is not merely careless, but it is against the improvement of mankind. That is what Paine complained of. Christians thought one had to believe that the serpent spoke. The belief in the asburd is proof of faith. The fact that Paine ridiculed them proved their faith, so they thought. "Oh, that infidel, Paine, is persecuting us!" they could cry.
Creationism is the latest attempt to make the supernatural (or fanciful) the most important thing. Morality and the lessons of the stories lose their place when that happens. That was Plutarch's point when he told of the destruction of Osiris. It means something, he was saying, but in a figurative and more important way. People accept the supernatural or fanciful aspects in the novel Frankenstein because they see those things as essential to the lesson of the story of unintended consequences. It is like the machinery of the story and it stays in the literary world, the real world does not have to try to operate according to literary machinery.

Does this help?

gem

[gem]

James?
Perhaps I should explain that the depravity comes about when the most important thing is made to serve something less important and in the process is spoiled. Creationism did not arise from an interest in observing the planet and from there searching for an understanding of how the world came to its present condition etc. It is rather a system for preserving a mental disorder, the elevation of fanciful stuff over virtue invigorating exercise.

gem