the origin of our country

[dthmstr254]

Who do you believe were our founding fathers. What were their beliefs? What moral guidelines do you believe this country was founded on? how do you think it has changed?
is it better or worse than when we started on Plymouth Rock

[dthmstr254]

to light this one up i am going to put my personal beliefs on it up.
i believe that this country was founded on the Bible. our forefathers created this country so they could worship God as they believed, not how the British forced them to. many of our documents from the early 1800's and on have direct statements that they believed in God. Nowadays, we still honor the ritual of swearing upon the Bible to tell, "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me GOD. i do not know what you think, but i know what society is saying. The facts of a lot of our history have been shaded and sometimes completely falsified in the attempt to remove God from our history. things like The Great Revival have been blotted out of our history. the only way to get the truth nowadays is to look it up online, eg. looking up quotes from our forefathers, looking up excerpts from famous documents. what would george washington think if he were to be thrown back into our day and age? i think that his beliefs would land him squarely under the classification of "right-wing conservatist/ theist"

[LemonButt]

Religion had a greater influence in society than today. I believe we shouldn't change our history, but we should definately get rid of any religion in the courtroom. How would you feel as an athiest or polythiest and were being "judged" based on a belief of a god that you did not beleive in? Or even worse, what if you told the court you do not believe in God or a single god? That just fuels prejudice/hatred/discrimination and does not insure a fair trial. I do not care what religion anyone is. Personally, I am against all forms of organized religion. George Washington was undoubtedly a great man of his time, however I think he would agree that relgion needs to be taken out of our courts because the times have changed. When they framed the American constitution, there were only a handful of Hindu/Buddhist/Atheist/Polytheist/non-religous people and did not fully integrate their way of chosen way of worship into their new society simply because they weren't prominent. As I said before, I don't care what religion you are, just keep it to yourself. If I say something offensive, let me know, otherwise keep it private.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: LemonButt Religion had a greater influence in society than today. I believe we shouldn't change our history, but we should definately get rid of any religion in the courtroom. How would you feel as an athiest or polythiest and were being "judged" based on a belief of a god that you did not beleive in? Or even worse, what if you told the court you do not believe in God or a single god? That just fuels prejudice/hatred/discrimination and does not insure a fair trial. I do not care what religion anyone is. Personally, I am against all forms of organized religion. George Washington was undoubtedly a great man of his time, however I think he would agree that relgion needs to be taken out of our courts because the times have changed. When they framed the American constitution, there were only a handful of Hindu/Buddhist/Atheist/Polytheist/non-religous people and did not fully integrate their way of chosen way of worship into their new society simply because they weren't prominent. As I said before, I don't care what religion you are, just keep it to yourself. If I say something offensive, let me know, otherwise keep it private.

first off i do not care if you say something offensive. secondly, i think George Washington would rather have a heartattack than take God out of our courtrooms. thirdly, why do you think they use twelve completely different types of people in the jury, all of different backgrounds and beliefs, to prevent prejudicial rulings. yes their werent very many other religions in america at that time, but does that rule out the fact that this country was founded on christian beliefs?

[LemonButt]

When I meant something offensive, I meant that as in interaction in life. I don't care what religion a person is, but if I offend them they should let me know. I believe the phrase is "a jury of their peers". Sadly, today's juries are not made up of people from all different backgrounds and beliefs. Most juries today are made up of older people who have nothing better to do because everyone else's lives are just too busy to serve jury duty. Many of these older people grew up during segregation etc and many minorities do not get fair trials. I have heard many stories of juries who would rather put an innocent man behind bars than let a guilty man go free on the streets. I do not dispute that our country was founded on Christian beliefs, but we also have seperation of church and state. Would an atheist's testimony be valid if they took an oath with their hand on the bible? Would they be subject to being charged with perjury for lying under oath when they swore to a God they do not believe exists? As you said this country was founded on freedom of religion. Imposing beliefs on someone I don't believe is illegal, but it is just not cool. By forcing someone to do anything associated with any religion is imposing beliefs on someone. The KKK was founded on Christian beliefs as well, that doesn't mean we should conform, but since it is our government, we MUST conform or change it with due process.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: LemonButt When I meant something offensive, I meant that as in interaction in life. I don't care what religion a person is, but if I offend them they should let me know. I believe the phrase is "a jury of their peers". Sadly, today's juries are not made up of people from all different backgrounds and beliefs. Most juries today are made up of older people who have nothing better to do because everyone else's lives are just too busy to serve jury duty. Many of these older people grew up during segregation etc and many minorities do not get fair trials. I have heard many stories of juries who would rather put an innocent man behind bars than let a guilty man go free on the streets. I do not dispute that our country was founded on Christian beliefs, but we also have seperation of church and state. Would an atheist's testimony be valid if they took an oath with their hand on the bible? Would they be subject to being charged with perjury for lying under oath when they swore to a God they do not believe exists? As you said this country was founded on freedom of religion. Imposing beliefs on someone I don't believe is illegal, but it is just not cool. By forcing someone to do anything associated with any religion is imposing beliefs on someone. The KKK was founded on Christian beliefs as well, that doesn't mean we should conform, but since it is our government, we MUST conform or change it with due process.

todays juries still manage to do their jobs, and the majority of juries are NOT peers of the defendant or prosecutor, as both attorneys would then have the ability to call for a mistrial on the grounds of the interest that the jury has in keepin the defendant free or not free. and also, the oath is not only to God but to the United States Judicial System.

[Disinterested]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Who do you believe were our founding fathers. What were their beliefs? What moral guidelines do you believe this country was founded on? how do you think it has changed? is it better or worse than when we started on Plymouth Rock

We didn't start on Plymouth Rock. Those were kooky Pilgrims. We were founded by Puritans who landed in Boston and founded the oldest public high school in the united states Boston Latin School in 1635 and Harvard College in 1639.

We are a Puritan nation.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Disinterested We didn't start on Plymouth Rock. Those were kooky Pilgrims. We were founded by Puritans who landed in Boston and founded the oldest public high school in the united states Boston Latin School in 1635 and Harvard College in 1639. We are a Puritan nation.

dont get me wrong here, i was just stating who was here first, not who's beliefs we originally were founded upon

but who was here before the puritans, cause the last timeline i checked placed the mayflower expedition here before the puritans, also they both believed the same things, just the pilgrims were kooky because they did not have sufficient knowledge of how to live off the land.

[Boetie]

The moral guideline that founded this country was money. A lot of rich merchants didn't like the taxation. In order to break free from Britain the rich merchants needed the poor as muscle. By using cute words like freedom, liberty and all that hogwash they whipped up the poor to break free from Britain. After the war they told the poor to go back to their places and leave the running of the country to the rich.

[Lilith]

Aren't Pilgrims and Puritans one and the same?

[Disinterested]

Quote by: dthmstr254 dont get me wrong here, i was just stating who was here first, not who's beliefs we originally were founded upon but who was here before the puritans, cause the last timeline i checked placed the mayflower expedition here before the puritans, also they both believed the same things, just the pilgrims were kooky because they did not have sufficient knowledge of how to live off the land.

Well, Leif Ericksson was most likely the first white man to make it over here if you want to get all particular. Also, Captain John Smith settled Jamestown while the Pilgrims were busy getting kicked around Europe before coming here.

I actually made it a point in the pouring rain in Leiden, Holland a few years ago to find the spot the Pilgrims last lived before getting tossed out of there. Needless to say, the Pilgrims aren't a big deal over there and there was absolutely nothing. I finally stumbled across a church in the cold pouring rain in October and found a plaque which said the reverend told the pilgrims to get out for their own safety basically.

[Osborn F Enready]

I believe the forefathers intents and wishes were well documented, and can be gleaned from reading their personal stories, books, notes and other memoribillia.

I think you are trying to condense what started our society, into a round hole, with a square peg.

People look past the basic intent many times to see what they want to see. The basic intent though was clearly written, and agreed to in the Constitution after the failure of the Articles of Confederation to meet the needs of the new nation.

In order to understand what was meant, you have to understand the monumental task. The task was to bring people of ALL different beliefs and ideologies to a level playing field, based on individual liberty and justice in a nation that put ALL value on the quality of life based on the INDIVIDUALS RIGHTS.

The only way to bring people together, who have fundamentally different (OR OPPOSED)spiritual and ideological leanings, is to create an atmosphere of equality and an over-riding sense of justice, for those that agree to live within a society of MINIMAL interference from government of ANY kind.

The Constitution was kept strict in its design of government, and vague in its enumeration of rights of the people, for a reason.

They understood that concentration of power leads to abuse of power. This is why they chose three branches of very limited government, specifying that concentration of this power should lead to removal of this government.

They also understood that every person has different needs, desires, cravings and beliefs. Knowing this, they had to design a system of law that allowed for freedom of all people until a person had proven they could not be trusted with the responsibility of that freedom.

This nation was designed as a Constitutionally Limited, Democratic Representative Republic.

All problems seen today in our modern society in the United States are directly linked to deviations from constitutional limitations being enforced AGAINST the government BY the people.

This is not, nor was it EVER, a Christian nation. It may have been a spiritual majority, but it was not an intention of the system, nor was it a goal of the forefathers.

[Disinterested]

Christianity was loathed by most of the Founding Fathers who were dyed in the wool Deists.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: dthmstr254 Who do you believe were our founding fathers. What were their beliefs? What moral guidelines do you believe this country was founded on? how do you think it has changed? is it better or worse than when we started on Plymouth Rock

We actually started first at Jamestown. They believed in voting to make their rules and they set up districts. They decided we shouldn't kill one another or steal from each other. So we made them into laws. We also believed in slavery.

[Osborn F Enready]

SoccerfreakAB2:
So we made them into laws. We also believed in slavery.

I say:
Wrong. Slavery was accepted at the time, it was not that all "believed" in it, nor was it expressly provided for in the Constitution. The wording of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were both used to help free the slaves.

[jose]

the founding fathers were mostly masons

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Boetie The moral guideline that founded this country was money. A lot of rich merchants didn't like the taxation. In order to break free from Britain the rich merchants needed the poor as muscle. By using cute words like freedom, liberty and all that hogwash they whipped up the poor to break free from Britain. After the war they told the poor to go back to their places and leave the running of the country to the rich.

you want to base what people back then were like on what we are like now. please read documents like the mayflower compact, the original constitution, and the articles of confederation

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Disinterested Christianity was loathed by most of the Founding Fathers who were dyed in the wool Deists.

give me one quote for that and i can give you ten against that, all from founding fathers.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I believe the forefathers intents and wishes were well documented, and can be gleaned from reading their personal stories, books, notes and other memoribillia. I think you are trying to condense what started our society, into a round hole, with a square peg. People look past the basic intent many times to see what they want to see. The basic intent though was clearly written, and agreed to in the Constitution after the failure of the Articles of Confederation to meet the needs of the new nation. In order to understand what was meant, you have to understand the monumental task. The task was to bring people of ALL different beliefs and ideologies to a level playing field, based on individual liberty and justice in a nation that put ALL value on the quality of life based on the INDIVIDUALS RIGHTS. The only way to bring people together, who have fundamentally different (OR OPPOSED)spiritual and ideological leanings, is to create an atmosphere of equality and an over-riding sense of justice, for those that agree to live within a society of MINIMAL interference from government of ANY kind. The Constitution was kept strict in its design of government, and vague in its enumeration of rights of the people, for a reason. They understood that concentration of power leads to abuse of power. This is why they chose three branches of very limited government, specifying that concentration of this power should lead to removal of this government. They also understood that every person has different needs, desires, cravings and beliefs. Knowing this, they had to design a system of law that allowed for freedom of all people until a person had proven they could not be trusted with the responsibility of that freedom. This nation was designed as a Constitutionally Limited, Democratic Representative Republic. All problems seen today in our modern society in the United States are directly linked to deviations from constitutional limitations being enforced AGAINST the government BY the people. This is not, nor was it EVER, a Christian nation. It may have been a spiritual majority, but it was not an intention of the system, nor was it a goal of the forefathers.

first off there are hundreds of quotes from the founding fathers that state that this was a Christian nation, including George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, a profound atheist, and others that if you want i can get for you within a few days.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready SoccerfreakAB2: So we made them into laws. We also believed in slavery. I say: Wrong. Slavery was accepted at the time, it was not that all "believed" in it, nor was it expressly provided for in the Constitution. The wording of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were both used to help free the slaves.

Thanks for the clarification.