Humanity

[Aaron Spicka]

I think its wonderful that wealthy countries have survival of the fitest/competitive ambition. Its what drives people, much of the time, to excel and thus make themselves and whatever country that person(s) resides in prosper. But there is also the less fortunate who have anywhere from less, to in essence, nothing but the gift of life itself submerged in suffering. On one hand, if you make money that money is yours and only yours because you earned it. And on the other hand there are others that are dying or barely have the basics that others posses. Even though I understand that it isn't manditory that one person give to another, it still bothers me that it is not seen as wrong to care only for ones self and not for a fellow human being because of the way people treat each other. Just because one is treated disrespectfully by another doesn't equate into that one being given the right to do the same to others. I am confused on wether or not its ok to know that a person is dying or suffering near or far away and not do something about it if you have to power to do so? What does everyone think on this topic? (I don't mean selling everything you own but if you make 50,000/yr whats 1,000 to save some lives or feed some extremely poor people who lack the power to do anything about it.)

[Savant]

Theres no need to ponder it, as every person will always do whatever serves their selfish interest. If you help others, you do it because you find it rewarding. If you didn't get that feeling in return, you wouldn't do it.

So the trick is not forcing people to be generous, it's to teach the havenots to be thankfull in a manner that makes giving rewarding for the gotsplenties.

[Morgan_Freeman]

The majority of the time, suffering is not an accident. It is caused by aggression on the part of other humans. We have it good here in the States, but that's because we have a political system that protects life, liberty, and property. The countries where the suffering is happening do not.

We most definitely have the ability to help those who are suffering. Unfortunately, most of the well-intentioned "help" to impoverished countries has done more harm than good. For instance, the money that western countries has poured into Africa has probably stunted its development:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3920

While targeted help can be a good thing, on the whole, foreign aid doesn't work for the same reason that Welfare doesn't work: it's a handout. Throwing money at problems rarely solves anything. You have to take a good hard look at how you're going to solve it.

Right now, the best thing we've got going for the poorer half of humanity is the advent of globalization and biotechnology The people standing in the way of that progress are anti-capitalists and environmentalists -- ironically, the very people who claim to champion the plight of the poor.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman The majority of the time, suffering is not an accident.

Of course it isn't. It's often a planned occurence.

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman It is caused by aggression on the part of other humans. We have it good here in the States, but that's because we have a political system that protects life, liberty, and property.

Good luck with that idea when corporations truly take over our government.
We base a large number of arguments on "original intent," but currently I don't like the idea of being subservient to what are most often unaccountable institutions who are only interested in making money.
Corporations, if they have too much power, tend to sap the joy out of life, deprive people of liberty and rent massive amounts of property (including us).

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman We most definitely have the ability to help those who are suffering. Unfortunately, most of the well-intentioned "help" to impoverished countries has done more harm than good. For instance, the money that western countries has poured into Africa has probably stunted its development: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3920

But one reason much of Africa is a gigantic failure is because of state capitalism there. The international presence in Africa has generally been for the purpose of converting them to Christianity and into easily exploitable resources.
You were right that throwing money at problems doesn't instantly solve them, which is why we need to stop funding dictators and the like in Third World countries.
Nobody's going to solve Africa's problems by keeping it as a cheap labor pool.

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman While targeted help can be a good thing, on the whole, foreign aid doesn't work for the same reason that Welfare doesn't work: it's a handout.

Poor, starving, diseased people need help from somewhere.

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Right now, the best thing we've got going for the poorer half of humanity is the advent of globalization and biotechnology The people standing in the way of that progress are anti-capitalists and environmentalists -- ironically, the very people who claim to champion the plight of the poor.

So we're going to solve all the world's ills by regarding people as cheap labor?
I think the best thing we can do is stop our cultural imperialism and occasionally provide aid if it is requested. If we are to be involved in foreign issues at all, we should not be involved in it deeply.
It should not be our business to shape other countries in Africa or the Persian Gulf. How are organizations like the World Bank and the IMF champions of the homeless? Because they displaces millions and rip them off by privatizing everything? How is that helping anyone but the multinationals? How did Nigeria help Africa by killing innocent Nigerian civilians with
the help of Chevron, a U.S.- based oil company?
Reuters, A.P., eyewitnesses, and Chevron
officials all confirmed that on January 4, 1999, Chevron
provided the helicopters, boats, and other hardware which Nigerian
security forces used to attack the villages of Opia and Ikenyan,
resulting in the razing of the village and massacre of civilians.
Sounds like wonderful international alliances, to me.

Grandpa h.

[Boetie]

Morgan_Freeman We have it good here in the States, but that's because we have a political system that protects life, liberty, and property

Tell that to the indians, I'm sure they can see how that ranks right up there with their history. Tell that to the blacks, they too will see how their whole history experienced it as well. Tell that to the women as I'm sure they can see it in their history to a point where they can say we have always been able to vote since 1776.

[Disinterested]

Quote by: Boetie Tell that to the indians, I'm sure they can see how that ranks right up there with their history. Tell that to the blacks, they too will see how their whole history experienced it as well. Tell that to the women as I'm sure they can see it in their history to a point where they can say we have always been able to vote since 1776.

These so-called true patriot conservatives crack me up speaking from their fantasy version of history. Even Thomas Paine argued that the government should pay for those dispossessed in Agrarian Justice his last great pamphlet written in the winter of 1795-1796:


In advocating the case of the persons thus dispossessed, it is a right, and not a charity… [Government must] create a national fund, out of which there shall be paid to every person, when arrived at the age of twenty-one years, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property; And also, the sum of ten pounds per annum, during life, to every person now living, of the age of fifty years, and to all others as they shall arrive at that age.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: grandpa So we're going to solve all the world's ills by regarding people as cheap labor?

You can phrase it however you want. I would say "trade increases the wealth of all parties".

Quote by: grandpa It should not be our business to shape other countries in Africa or the Persian Gulf.

I agree.

Quote by: grandpa How did Nigeria help Africa by killing innocent Nigerian civilians with the help of Chevron, a U.S.- based oil company?

Citing freak examples like this doesn't somehow undermine the benefits of trade. Murder is a way of life in that part of the world, and it will continue until Africa learns by example from the West.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Boetie Tell that to the indians, I'm sure they can see how that ranks right up there with their history. Tell that to the blacks, they too will see how their whole history experienced it as well. Tell that to the women as I'm sure they can see it in their history to a point where they can say we have always been able to vote since 1776.

I suppose the Indians, women, and blacks are clamoring to get out of the US and go somewhere else?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman the best thing we've got going for the poorer half of humanity is the advent of globalization and biotechnology

It's also the WORST thing going, Morgan. Globalization largely benefits local elites, while doing nothing for the poverty stricken. Often it is worse than nothing, actively taking for private use the assets that have been common possessions for the indigenous populations. Things like lands without titles expropriated for golf courses in SE Asia, river valleys drowned by hydroelectric projects, forest resources simply cut and hauled away, leaving the land to dry out and perish. These were the possessions of the indigenous people, but their systems don't have the paperwork to prevail in a clash with globalization. Heartless people like you act as if a rising tide raises all boats, ignoring the fact of the EHMs whose mission it is to stove holes in the boats of those not favored.

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Murder is a way of life in that part of the world, and it will continue until Africa learns by example from the West.

Do you understand the irony of your statement here? Africa HAS learned by example! I wouldn't vote for you, I don't care how libertarian you claim to be. You are COLD, dude!

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman suppose the Indians, women, and blacks are clamoring to get out of the US and go somewhere else?

As I'm sure you know, most people in the third world would give a left nut to be able to live here. But that is because, then, they can live off of the spill-over spoils of exploitation, and they are desperate enough to be in no position to consider the long term consequences of our policies. They are so poor they only think about being able to feed and shelter themselves. We, on the other hand, are in a different position. We can think about what is wrong with the system. We can think about ways to improve what is bad, while retaining what is good. This is not a "love it or leave it" propositon. If you think we are perfect, you are wrong. If you think ignoring the ways we are not perfect improves the ways we are good, you are naive. I love my country, warts and all, but I still would prefer to apply the Compound W.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: lsbskins1 As I'm sure you know, most people in the third world would give a left nut to be able to live here. But that is because, then, they can live off of the spill-over spoils of exploitation, and they are desperate enough to be in no position to consider the long term consequences of our policies. They are so poor they only think about being able to feed and shelter themselves.

People who can't feed and shelter themselves have more immediate problems than getting to America. They're not the ones who can afford to come here. The ones who can, and who are trying to, are the hard-working entreprenuers who know they can go much farther in America than in their home country.

"spoils of exploitation"? Give me a break.