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castille · Feb 25, 2004, 08:37 am

Tell the poor that they will forever be poor, and oppressed by the rich.

Liberals complaining about the cycle of poverty are doing more damage to poor people, than rich people.

By telling the poor (or if you're a middle class college protestor, "analysing the poor") they are stuck in their cycle, you are saying "You shouldnt bother trying to be rich, just be poor all your life".

My teacher once did an experiment in maths class. She divided the students up. She told one group they were great maths students. The other group was told they were "not so good".

This went on for a week. Initially, there was no results. But in a week, the group being told they were great were improving at tests. The other group, told they were crap, were losing motivation and many failed the daily maths test.

How can you help the poor? Tell them that nobody decided their destiny; whether they remain rich or poor is their decision.

Some of you complainers will complain, "but that won't make them instantly rich".

No, but at least it will give them a reason to get out of the poverty cycle. At least its better than "you're poor, so you'll always be poor your whole life".

The Black Flag · Feb 25, 2004, 05:34 pm

Castille, I'm happy to say that for once, I agree with you (not like it matters though lol), but you've hit the nail on the head. Everytime someone comes to me with money problems, i give them every little bit of advice they can use to get ahead in this capitalist system. As much as I disagree with it, if it's going to be hear, learn how to fucking play the game, and when I do tell tthem advice thats of use, they tend to actually get a glimmer of hope, I don't think I would tell them to take the any anarchist route, I don't want people having it the hard way, just go with it. But you're right, as long as people are telling them of this cycle, they'll be poor, instead, incourage the fuck out of them and give them the advice and education they need to understand the system. Probably alot of them already know, just don't know where to start.

leftcider · Feb 25, 2004, 05:56 pm

You are correct in asserting that we should not tell the poor that their condition is permanent and that there is no that they can get out of it. We should try to individually empower people to strive forward for themselves. But it is also our societal obligation to provide everyone with an equal amount of opportunity to do this, through education, safe neighborhoods, healthcare, etc. Much of this "complaining" that you are speaking about is an attempt to change the system so that everyone has the resources that they need in order to succeed. Poverty should not be spoken of as a cycle that no one can break out of, but it has to be addressed in order to create any kind of a just society.

mlingley · Feb 25, 2004, 07:48 pm

I think a big part of the problem is our school system. We don't teach kids how to empower themselves. The education system in the U.S. is all about producing human resources. They don't really want us to think for ourselves, they want worker robots.. at least for the most part.

Packratt · Feb 27, 2004, 10:49 pm

Listening to a rich man blaming the poor for their poverty is like listening to a rapist blame his victim for being raped, like the bully blaming the bullied for the beating, the racist blaming the jews for the holocost. I've watched and listened to the rantings of each and they are all equal in the vehement hatred and fear spewed frothingly into each demonizing delivery.

The attempt to blame the victimized for the victimization is the classic psychopathic response to being caught red handed when forced to make a feeble attempt at denying culpability.

Of course, this is simply my opinion.

castille · Feb 27, 2004, 11:30 pm

In a way its the first step thats difficult to take.

Can you imagine telling a guy born in a bad neighbourhood, that he should be a doctor? He'd find it pretty funny. It shows that a lot of people in poverty-stricken situations don't believe in themselves.

I guess I've been reading into Tony Robbins too much, but I believe that he has a point. The minute the poor begin to reject their situation and work for their future, they'll have a fighting chance.

Too many people want a "quick solution". They say things like "I want to be rich but I don't want to take any risks", or "I don't want to be poor, but theres no way in hell I'm doing my homework".

Do you know why so many Asian immigrants come to America, and in a few generations become more educated and wealthier than say Mexicans? Simply because East Asia's Confucian culture focuses on discipline and steady focus. Most 1st generation Asian immimgrants won't be rich, but instead of buying a new car they buy an education for their children, who then go on to bring wealth to the family name.

Unfortunately, Western culture does not encourage any long-term thought. In the West, faster is better. Speed over quality. Even the corporations represent this. Western corporations tend to focus on bringing shareholders fast results (at the expense of long-term growth), while Japanese corporations focus on the long term.

The first step in reducing poverty, really, is to encourage discipline and long term focus in society. However, since the US tends to be an individualistic society, it is extremely difficult to encourage people to work together for such things.

Packratt · Feb 27, 2004, 11:54 pm

Some interesting theories...

The kid in the rough nieghborhood is not laughing due to a doubt in his own abilities to become a doctor, but in the massive hurdles that exist between him and that goal and how absurd that simple phrase seems when he considers the distance between here and there.

It is a question of chicken and egg, is it the broken spirit that causes poverty or the poverty that breaks the spirit? I know the answer first hand, do you?

The assumption that the very nature of being asian assures one of success is a proven fallacy. There are asians who reside in bad neighborhoods, there are people in Japan who are suffering from unemployment. The Japanese system has adopted the ways of the west and have turned their backs on their long term social visions and the casualties of that transformation have been committing suicide in large numbers due to the deep shame their feel in their supposed failure as indicated by the status of being unemployed. Even the shame you think those who are residing in poverty should feel is not enough to escape it's hold upon many it seems...

RebelWithanAK · Feb 28, 2004, 12:03 am

As for the Asian myth, you need only look towards Vietnamese slums in Los Angeles or Chinatown in New York to know that it's not their ethnicity that makes them more capable. By far, it's our immigration practices: Since the late 60's, we've only allowed educated and trained people to enter the country, so it's no fucking wonder they pack our colleges and graduate schools! The older ethnic enclaves, before the 60-something year moratorium on Chinese immigration, prove this fact out right: The Chinatown Chinese are just as bad off as they were way back when, if not worse.

gluadys · Feb 28, 2004, 07:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
Some interesting theories...

The kid in the rough nieghborhood is not laughing due to a doubt in his own abilities to become a doctor, but in the massive hurdles that exist between him and that goal and how absurd that simple phrase seems when he considers the distance between here and there.

It is a question of chicken and egg, is it the broken spirit that causes poverty or the poverty that breaks the spirit? I know the answer first hand, do you? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Exactly. Those who support mean-spirited social assistance systems, under-funded inner city schools, refuse to fund social housing for the homeless and other measures that would put a few wheels on a person's desire for a better life and then call on the poor to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps are buying into a philosophy that says poverty is entirely due to personal failings. To lack of ambition, poor attitudes, unwillingness to put effort into getting ahead, and so forth.

But to what extent are those attitudes and behaviours the result rather than the cause of poverty and the social attitudes and "helping" institutions the poor have to deal with.

There has to be some recognition that the social choices we all make when we ask i.e. for lower taxes or for grants to highways instead of subways, to opera houses instead of public libraries, have impacts that put and keep people in poverty in spite of being well-motivated.

Not to let those in poverty off the hook. Everyone in every socio-economic bracket should be expected to do what they can for themselves. But we also need to make it possible for people to act in their own benefit.

Very often the effort is not made because a person sees no hope of it paying off. And very often they are right. The most important things the non-poor can give the poor is respect and the realistic hope that their dreams are possible.

And if that means making sure they have the schooling they need, or a roof over their head, or enough food for the month for their children, or a scholarship to an art school, or the venture capital for a small business--we should be providing the wherewithal to make that happen.

Edge · Feb 28, 2004, 09:42 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
As for the Asian myth, you need only look towards Vietnamese slums in Los Angeles or Chinatown in New York to know that it's not their ethnicity that makes them more capable. By far, it's our immigration practices: Since the late 60's, we've only allowed educated and trained people to enter the country, so it's no fucking wonder they pack our colleges and graduate schools! The older ethnic enclaves, before the 60-something year moratorium on Chinese immigration, prove this fact out right: The Chinatown Chinese are just as bad off as they were way back when, if not worse.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Would you care to support your assertion with a reference or link to a third party source? The "only the smart one's get in" assertion directly contradicts my own experience with the asian 'towns' (Korea town, China town, little Vietnam) etc. in Los Angeles (Hollywood) CA and Philadelphia, PA.

castille · Mar 3, 2004, 10:16 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
The kid in the rough nieghborhood is not laughing due to a doubt in his own abilities to become a doctor, but in the massive hurdles that exist between him and that goal and how absurd that simple phrase seems when he considers the distance between here and there.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

In that case, why not ask a poor Asian immigrant to America the same question?

Ask Li Ka Shing - immigrant to Hong Kong, armed with $10, who went from a factory worker to Asia's richest man. Did he say "Well I guess since I'm poor I'll be poor all my life"?

I grew up in a village where women would become hookers in the city for 10 renmenbi ($2-3 US dollars). But when somebody asked me the question: "Will I be poor all my life?", I would always look up brightly and tell them I would be the richest man in Asia one day. And thats what every single one of my friends said too.

You know what? When I went back last year, I found out that the guys in my class now work in professional careers, go to top universities, and some have even set up businesses right in the very same village.

I'm not saying we should just tell the poor to lift their game, but the very least we can do is give them some encouragement. Most of you seem to discourage people from trying to get out of poverty. Start encouraging instead; it'll make a huge difference.

"Theres a billion obstacles that continue the poverty cycle", says the 'refined' academic sipping wine in his office. Sip sip.

"Duuude, the rich will always oppress the poor!" says the student radical.

"The first step to victory is to believe", said our class motto.

Which one do you think made the most difference?

widereader · Sep 23, 2005, 04:40 am

Lets us cite it this way.

What makes a country rich economically and get industrialized?

It needs the following factors:

1) a free market society
2) an invading neighboring country
3) a four season weather (summer, fall, winter, spring)

Let me explain.

1) A free market society brings out the best ideas in ourselves. We are willing to improve things becuase we can attach our name to it. And, we can own our own ideas.

2) An invading neighboring country will really make a country and its government get it acts together. They also need a certain kind of patriotic duty to do good.

3) A poor family in a during a 3 month winter season would most likely die of starvation or lack of shelter. The survivors would likely topple down their government during spring time. The government officials would naturally take care of its citizens to remain in power.

Here in the Philippines a poor family can survive for 50 years. Food is available year round. Life's a vacation here. Our staple diet is rice. Our viand is vegetable stew, instant noodle soup, dried fish, fish sauce, fish paste, skewered innards of chicken or pork.

Our government can afford to be corrupt because we are not dropping dead like flies during summer or monsoon season.

Thats how to make poverty.

doubt it? just mark the globe where industrialized countries fall.... four season weather.

Feb 25, 2004, 08:37 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Tell the poor that they will forever be poor, and oppressed by the rich. Liberals complaining about the cycle of poverty are doing more damage to poor people, than rich people. By telling the poor (or if you're a middle class college protestor, "analysing the poor") they are stuck in their cycle, you are saying "You shouldnt bother trying to be rich, just be poor all your life". My teacher once did an experiment in maths class. She divided the students up. She told one group they were great maths students. The other group was told they were "not so good". This went on for a week. Initially, there was no results. But in a week, the group being told they were great were improving at tests. The other group, told they were crap, were losing motivation and many failed the daily maths test. How can you help the poor? Tell them that nobody decided their destiny; whether they remain rich or poor is their decision. Some of you complainers will complain, "but that won't make them instantly rich". No, but at least it will give them a reason to get out of the poverty cycle. At least its better than "you're poor, so you'll always be poor your whole life". Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 25, 2004, 05:34 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
The Black Flag Molten Ash Location: thomaston, GA Posts: 132	Castille, I'm happy to say that for once, I agree with you (not like it matters though lol), but you've hit the nail on the head. Everytime someone comes to me with money problems, i give them every little bit of advice they can use to get ahead in this capitalist system. As much as I disagree with it, if it's going to be hear, learn how to fucking play the game, and when I do tell tthem advice thats of use, they tend to actually get a glimmer of hope, I don't think I would tell them to take the any anarchist route, I don't want people having it the hard way, just go with it. But you're right, as long as people are telling them of this cycle, they'll be poor, instead, incourage the fuck out of them and give them the advice and education they need to understand the system. Probably alot of them already know, just don't know where to start. Whenever citizens are seen routinely as enemies of their own government, writers are routinely seen to be the most dangerous enemies. --E.L. Doctorow

Feb 25, 2004, 05:56 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
leftcider Lord Teh Location: Seattlul, WA Posts: 486	You are correct in asserting that we should not tell the poor that their condition is permanent and that there is no that they can get out of it. We should try to individually empower people to strive forward for themselves. But it is also our societal obligation to provide everyone with an equal amount of opportunity to do this, through education, safe neighborhoods, healthcare, etc. Much of this "complaining" that you are speaking about is an attempt to change the system so that everyone has the resources that they need in order to succeed. Poverty should not be spoken of as a cycle that no one can break out of, but it has to be addressed in order to create any kind of a just society. "There is much death in teh wasteland. For Mutilator, it is a way of life."

Feb 27, 2004, 10:49 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	Listening to a rich man blaming the poor for their poverty is like listening to a rapist blame his victim for being raped, like the bully blaming the bullied for the beating, the racist blaming the jews for the holocost. I've watched and listened to the rantings of each and they are all equal in the vehement hatred and fear spewed frothingly into each demonizing delivery. The attempt to blame the victimized for the victimization is the classic psychopathic response to being caught red handed when forced to make a feeble attempt at denying culpability. Of course, this is simply my opinion. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 27, 2004, 11:30 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	In a way its the first step thats difficult to take. Can you imagine telling a guy born in a bad neighbourhood, that he should be a doctor? He'd find it pretty funny. It shows that a lot of people in poverty-stricken situations don't believe in themselves. I guess I've been reading into Tony Robbins too much, but I believe that he has a point. The minute the poor begin to reject their situation and work for their future, they'll have a fighting chance. Too many people want a "quick solution". They say things like "I want to be rich but I don't want to take any risks", or "I don't want to be poor, but theres no way in hell I'm doing my homework". Do you know why so many Asian immigrants come to America, and in a few generations become more educated and wealthier than say Mexicans? Simply because East Asia's Confucian culture focuses on discipline and steady focus. Most 1st generation Asian immimgrants won't be rich, but instead of buying a new car they buy an education for their children, who then go on to bring wealth to the family name. Unfortunately, Western culture does not encourage any long-term thought. In the West, faster is better. Speed over quality. Even the corporations represent this. Western corporations tend to focus on bringing shareholders fast results (at the expense of long-term growth), while Japanese corporations focus on the long term. The first step in reducing poverty, really, is to encourage discipline and long term focus in society. However, since the US tends to be an individualistic society, it is extremely difficult to encourage people to work together for such things. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 25, 2004, 07:48 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	I think a big part of the problem is our school system. We don't teach kids how to empower themselves. The education system in the U.S. is all about producing human resources. They don't really want us to think for ourselves, they want worker robots.. at least for the most part.

Feb 27, 2004, 11:54 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	Some interesting theories... The kid in the rough nieghborhood is not laughing due to a doubt in his own abilities to become a doctor, but in the massive hurdles that exist between him and that goal and how absurd that simple phrase seems when he considers the distance between here and there. It is a question of chicken and egg, is it the broken spirit that causes poverty or the poverty that breaks the spirit? I know the answer first hand, do you? The assumption that the very nature of being asian assures one of success is a proven fallacy. There are asians who reside in bad neighborhoods, there are people in Japan who are suffering from unemployment. The Japanese system has adopted the ways of the west and have turned their backs on their long term social visions and the casualties of that transformation have been committing suicide in large numbers due to the deep shame their feel in their supposed failure as indicated by the status of being unemployed. Even the shame you think those who are residing in poverty should feel is not enough to escape it's hold upon many it seems... "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 12:03 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	As for the Asian myth, you need only look towards Vietnamese slums in Los Angeles or Chinatown in New York to know that it's not their ethnicity that makes them more capable. By far, it's our immigration practices: Since the late 60's, we've only allowed educated and trained people to enter the country, so it's no fucking wonder they pack our colleges and graduate schools! The older ethnic enclaves, before the 60-something year moratorium on Chinese immigration, prove this fact out right: The Chinatown Chinese are just as bad off as they were way back when, if not worse. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 28, 2004, 07:52 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
gluadys Molten Ash Posts: 28	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,) Some interesting theories... The kid in the rough nieghborhood is not laughing due to a doubt in his own abilities to become a doctor, but in the massive hurdles that exist between him and that goal and how absurd that simple phrase seems when he considers the distance between here and there. It is a question of chicken and egg, is it the broken spirit that causes poverty or the poverty that breaks the spirit? I know the answer first hand, do you? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Exactly. Those who support mean-spirited social assistance systems, under-funded inner city schools, refuse to fund social housing for the homeless and other measures that would put a few wheels on a person's desire for a better life and then call on the poor to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps are buying into a philosophy that says poverty is entirely due to personal failings. To lack of ambition, poor attitudes, unwillingness to put effort into getting ahead, and so forth. But to what extent are those attitudes and behaviours the result rather than the cause of poverty and the social attitudes and "helping" institutions the poor have to deal with. There has to be some recognition that the social choices we all make when we ask i.e. for lower taxes or for grants to highways instead of subways, to opera houses instead of public libraries, have impacts that put and keep people in poverty in spite of being well-motivated. Not to let those in poverty off the hook. Everyone in every socio-economic bracket should be expected to do what they can for themselves. But we also need to make it possible for people to act in their own benefit. Very often the effort is not made because a person sees no hope of it paying off. And very often they are right. The most important things the non-poor can give the poor is respect and the realistic hope that their dreams are possible. And if that means making sure they have the schooling they need, or a roof over their head, or enough food for the month for their children, or a scholarship to an art school, or the venture capital for a small business--we should be providing the wherewithal to make that happen.

Feb 28, 2004, 09:42 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Edge Molten Ash Posts: 76	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) As for the Asian myth, you need only look towards Vietnamese slums in Los Angeles or Chinatown in New York to know that it's not their ethnicity that makes them more capable. By far, it's our immigration practices: Since the late 60's, we've only allowed educated and trained people to enter the country, so it's no fucking wonder they pack our colleges and graduate schools! The older ethnic enclaves, before the 60-something year moratorium on Chinese immigration, prove this fact out right: The Chinatown Chinese are just as bad off as they were way back when, if not worse.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Would you care to support your assertion with a reference or link to a third party source? The "only the smart one's get in" assertion directly contradicts my own experience with the asian 'towns' (Korea town, China town, little Vietnam) etc. in Los Angeles (Hollywood) CA and Philadelphia, PA.

Mar 3, 2004, 10:16 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,) The kid in the rough nieghborhood is not laughing due to a doubt in his own abilities to become a doctor, but in the massive hurdles that exist between him and that goal and how absurd that simple phrase seems when he considers the distance between here and there.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> In that case, why not ask a poor Asian immigrant to America the same question? Ask Li Ka Shing - immigrant to Hong Kong, armed with $10, who went from a factory worker to Asia's richest man. Did he say "Well I guess since I'm poor I'll be poor all my life"? I grew up in a village where women would become hookers in the city for 10 renmenbi ($2-3 US dollars). But when somebody asked me the question: "Will I be poor all my life?", I would always look up brightly and tell them I would be the richest man in Asia one day. And thats what every single one of my friends said too. You know what? When I went back last year, I found out that the guys in my class now work in professional careers, go to top universities, and some have even set up businesses right in the very same village. I'm not saying we should just tell the poor to lift their game, but the very least we can do is give them some encouragement. Most of you seem to discourage people from trying to get out of poverty. Start encouraging instead; it'll make a huge difference. "Theres a billion obstacles that continue the poverty cycle", says the 'refined' academic sipping wine in his office. Sip sip. "Duuude, the rich will always oppress the poor!" says the student radical. "The first step to victory is to believe", said our class motto. Which one do you think made the most difference? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Sep 23, 2005, 04:40 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
widereader Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Lets us cite it this way. What makes a country rich economically and get industrialized? It needs the following factors: 1) a free market society 2) an invading neighboring country 3) a four season weather (summer, fall, winter, spring) Let me explain. 1) A free market society brings out the best ideas in ourselves. We are willing to improve things becuase we can attach our name to it. And, we can own our own ideas. 2) An invading neighboring country will really make a country and its government get it acts together. They also need a certain kind of patriotic duty to do good. 3) A poor family in a during a 3 month winter season would most likely die of starvation or lack of shelter. The survivors would likely topple down their government during spring time. The government officials would naturally take care of its citizens to remain in power. Here in the Philippines a poor family can survive for 50 years. Food is available year round. Life's a vacation here. Our staple diet is rice. Our viand is vegetable stew, instant noodle soup, dried fish, fish sauce, fish paste, skewered innards of chicken or pork. Our government can afford to be corrupt because we are not dropping dead like flies during summer or monsoon season. Thats how to make poverty. doubt it? just mark the globe where industrialized countries fall.... four season weather.