The decline of dress codes

[tivodan1116]

Ok, this is a light topic. I was reading an article about the incoming freshman class of college students. It was mostly just stuff like how they don't know about Watergate and things like that, then it gets to this line...

Like most of the men in his class, Joe Erkenbrack, 18, of Pella, Iowa, admitted that he didn't know how to tie a tie. He doesn't even own one.

Say what?

This is all part of my complaint about dress codes - they seem to have gone by the wayside. Workplaces can't get businessmen to put a tie on, restaurants brag about having "no rules" (especially refering to the dress code), and now this - a young gentleman who presumably had decent grades and intelligence enough to go to college, who has no concept of how to wear or purchase one of the basic fashion accessories known to man.

What is the problem? Are people lazy? sloppy? Personally, I am going to be an attorney, and one of my favorite things about the legal profession is that the profession as a whole still works on professional dress - shirt and tie at a minimum, suit on days when you're in court.

The only advantage for me is that I have been able to distinguish myself by dressing more professionally. My most recent development has been to only purchase french cuff dress shirts that require cufflinks, which gives them a more dressed-up look.

When I last worked in an office, we had a dress code that called for ties for men and very professional dress for women. Well, the women would basically flaunt their dress code violations, and the men would look for any excuse to take their tie off. Occasionally we had dress down days, and one distinct change on those days was that very little work got done.

That leads me to my other part of the dress code theory --- that professional dress begets at least in part professional behavior.

Thoughts? Comments? Anecdotes?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Who cares what people wear to work? Some actually think it shows maturity, when any rich person can afford nice clothing and can be a total reject when it comes to being professional. Hopefully, we're turning into a society where clothes no longer determine what your social or occupational rank is. Just another dividing line between classes.

[tivodan1116]

So you don't agree that by dressing professionally not only do you show that you are capable of putting some thought into your appearance, that you show that you are a professional? For professionals, the dress is similar to the uniform at a blue collar job.

Then there's the issue that professional dress leads the person in the clothing and around them to act professionally (as demonstrated by John Malloy in his studies of professional dress). I have found that when people come to work, say, in their pajamas, they lounge around like you would in your pajamas.

I also think professional dress shows respect for the position and for your company... That you care about how your company is portrayed and you are putting your best effort into everything, including your appearance.

[tman_ndsu08]

I'm glad that dress codes are being eliminated.

It makes me happy to know that old farts are getting frustrated because things aren't the way they used to be.

That means things are changing. Change is good. We need a lot more!

[Prometheus]

tividan - I think you need to get a girlfriend or something. Anything to keep your life from sucking so bad that you are getting worked up about what people wear.

Who cares? Wearing crappy clothing only hurts the crappy dresser. It's not like it's you buisiness. If I try to get a job in an office and show up in jeans, it's not going to work out. That's my peoblem. not yours.

[Lilith]

Quote by: tivodan1116 That leads me to my other part of the dress code theory --- that professional dress begets at least in part professional behavior.

I agree. But I'm so oldfashioned about somethings. First appearances are so lasting.

[tivodan1116]

Prometheus - I'm married, so I don't think my wife would appreciate it if i got a girlfriend.

Tman - I'm 27, so i don't think i'm the old people to which you refer.

I agree that wearing crappy clothing only hurts the crappy dresser... unless you work for a company in which case it reflects poorly on the company too.

What I'm saying is that it's disappointing to me that so many people my age and younger resist at all costs getting dressed up for work.or other occasions and seem to revel in who can get away with dressing the crappiest. I enjoy dressing up, I like wearing a suit, and i'd rather work in a place where people recognize that just as an auto mechanic or burger flipper has a uniform, professionals have a "uniform". I also like going out to dinner at a nice restaurant where a jacket and tie are required and seeing everyone looking their best. What kind of special occasion is it if you can't be bothered to put on more then a t-shirt?

This may be making this conversation more serious then I wanted to get, but isn't this indicative of something larger in our society? The whole attitude of "I'm the only one who matters and if anyone else doesn't like it f**k them, because my comfort is the most important thing in the world" ?

[rbuchanan]

Quote by: tivodan1116 This may be making this conversation more serious then I wanted to get, but isn't this indicative of something larger in our society? The whole attitude of "I'm the only one who matters and if anyone else doesn't like it f**k them, because my comfort is the most important thing in the world" ?

If so, I'm all for more of it.

[oranged]

Quote by: tivodan1116 thought into your appearance

It's not though into your appearance, it's money, some people can only afford cackies and an undershirt from the a 2nd hand store, but some of them are still intellegent profound people.

[Jack]

I can still tie a four-in-hand. I like ties. I do carry myself differently when wearing "professional" attire than when I'm in jeans and a t-shirt.
Having said that, a tie is really just a pretty string worn around a man's neck. How that came to represent high fashion is still beyond me. Bow ties are even more unexplainable...but I do have a couple stashed away. :)

[Prometheus]

I do love ties and nice suits. I have quite a collection of both... and certainly enjoy them. People treat you differently when you are dressed nicely.

[Jack]

They'll really treat you differently when you wear a gown and high-heels. Try it and see. Your tight ass would look good in chiffon, I'd bet.

[Prometheus]

Especially if I kept the beard...

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Prometheus - I'm married, so I don't think my wife would appreciate it if i got a girlfriend. Tman - I'm 27, so i don't think i'm the old people to which you refer. I agree that wearing crappy clothing only hurts the crappy dresser... unless you work for a company in which case it reflects poorly on the company too. What I'm saying is that it's disappointing to me that so many people my age and younger resist at all costs getting dressed up for work.or other occasions and seem to revel in who can get away with dressing the crappiest. I enjoy dressing up, I like wearing a suit, and i'd rather work in a place where people recognize that just as an auto mechanic or burger flipper has a uniform, professionals have a "uniform". I also like going out to dinner at a nice restaurant where a jacket and tie are required and seeing everyone looking their best. What kind of special occasion is it if you can't be bothered to put on more then a t-shirt? This may be making this conversation more serious then I wanted to get, but isn't this indicative of something larger in our society? The whole attitude of "I'm the only one who matters and if anyone else doesn't like it f**k them, because my comfort is the most important thing in the world" ?

Well yours and my definitions of "professionals" must be completely different. When I think professional, I think someone who knows what to do and when to do it at their job. Someone who will do anything to succeed in their field and someone is willing to go far for their company or business. I don't think of someone who is in a suit and tie and on a cell phone. If you do, that's sad.

Why should you care what someone else is wearing, because it makes you feel bad that people might look at you and think you're "unprofessional?" You need to self-conscious help. I actually do think my comfort is all that matters, because frankly, I don't give a damn how comfortable or "professional" looking the other person beside me is. As long as we both do our jobs, who cares?

Judging by what you're saying you are obviously someone obsessed with appearance, especially first appearances. To you, half of the person's reputation should come from how they dress and look. Why do you feel this way? Probably because you want more people to like you, and in order to do that you want to look professional and look good. When others don't do it, you don't feel so good and powerful in your professional gear anymore and want them to start doing the same as you again.

[Prometheus]

I am a professional firefighter. I wear nomex pants. I was once a professional river guide. I wore shorts and sandals. I am a professional gigilo and wear nothing for that job.

I work as a professional accountant (only when I have to though, I hate accounting), and wear a suit and tie. Different outfits for different jobs.

[Jack]

Prometheus, you have stumbled across the formerly unknown weakness in my theory about there being no difference between humans and other animals.

We are among a very small number of animals who use the skins of other animals to cover themselves. Especially these days when humans inhabit climates that don't require any covering at all. Religion is solely responsible for introducing guilt into previously guilt-free societies and creating the "sin" of nakedness. So now, even where it makes no sense, humans cover themselves with cloth and leather for a multitude of reasons. We've ascribed meanings to certain combinations of cloth.

Then there's our fascination with our minuscule remaining patches of fur on our heads. But hairstyle has become a part of our evolution as well.

How so?

Science has discovered that clothing and hairstyle have become such a major element of human nature that they've taken on an evolutionary role. We are what we wear, our clothing and hairstyle are our daily costumes. They've become so important to the functioning of our societies that nature finally created homosexuals

Somebody's got to keep you people dressed and styled properly.

[Matt W]

It is a simple fact that certain companies/industries require people to look 'proffessional', outdated notion or not. And, personally, I agree with their attitude, to a certain extent. People still judge others on what they wear, especially in a work environment. At the moment I work in an atmosphere where it's fairly informal - shirts & trousers are about as smart as it gets, as we're not dealing face-to-face with customers and suppliers. However, when we do go to meetings outside the company, suits etc are the preffered option.

I wouldn't say that anyone who likes suits is 'obsessed' with appearances - merely that they like looking nice & anyone who says they don't change their appearance dependant on who they're with is either supremely self-confident or a liar!!!

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: tivodan1116 The whole attitude of "I'm the only one who matters and if anyone else doesn't like it f**k them, because my comfort is the most important thing in the world" ?

It's called "freedom" you facist.

Go move cuba and leave us the hell alone.

[tivodan1116]

way to advance the debate there tman while simultaneously going for the ad homenim attack... "go move to xxxxx" has to be the lowest form of debate in the world, i.e. "your opinion is different so instead of seeking to open up others to your way of thinking, leave your home and go somewhere else"

I'm just saying in my quote that you are so pissed off at that perhaps the lack of proper dress is indicative of a trend in our society where people only give a crap about themselves and don't make any attempt at being even civil to others. This is not a good thing... If people stop caring about those around them, this will lead to disorder and uncivility. There are so many areas of our culture where working together is really the only way.

Anyway, I think this topic is getting much too serious. I just was making a societal observation that it doesnt seem like people care about their appearance anymore, at least as far as professional dress. I think it shows an incredible lack of respect for the people you work with if you can't be bothered to dress professionally.

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 Why should you care what someone else is wearing, because it makes you feel bad that people might look at you and think you're "unprofessional?" You need to self-conscious help. I actually do think my comfort is all that matters, because frankly, I don't give a damn how comfortable or "professional" looking the other person beside me is. As long as we both do our jobs, who cares?

But that's what I'm saying. It's been my observation (and the observations of several studies done in workplaces) that people who don't care how they look and dress for comfort when coming to work largely do not work as hard or as well as people who dress professionally. You're not supposed to be as comfortable at work as you are at home. That's why they call it "work".... Which ties in to my other point up above... People want everything to be pleasant and "comfy" in their world and don't understand that not everything in this world is "fun" or "comfy". If it was, there would be no motivation to do better.

[Osborn F Enready]

My personal feelings on this are based on readings on psychology, and mans progression away from violence in society. I believe we have seen more of the decline in dress corresponding with our increased diminishment of our rights and abilities to speak out, or rebel against authority. It started in the late 50's, and has been steadily more and more individual and outrageous.

I am not saying that this is part of a conspiracy, or a plan against the people by the establishment.
I am saying it is a subconcious, tit-for-tat situation. As people feel more and more oppressed by authority, they acutally need more and more ways to relieve that stress, or make their discontent heard. I think this explains a lot about the steady increase of skin being shown. Nudity is obviously regulated in public, and the tighter the regulation has gotten, the closer to the line people have pushed.

People are meant to be free, and when society limits the people to the least extent while still maintaining a sense of order and justice, you will see the greatest amount of social normalcy, and intellectial creativity. The less stress imposed by life, the more enjoyable, healthy and productive life is.

On a sidenote, I just watched a television special about how they are beginning to show in studies that stress does shorten life span, as well as cause pre-mature aging. This I think will be a very beneficial line of study I believe, and if done honestly, I believe could truly benefit the life of all people.
Cortisol blockers are a great start in the private supplement market, but just a beginning.