Why Feminism Failed

[austin2011]

I was watching TV one day- some woman from NOW going on and on about how women need to demand respect in the workplace. I switch the channel, there's a black representative form the ACLU saying virtually the same thing- "we demand respect." Then I realized I've been hearing this all my life (since the 1960's) yet I had never really thought about it. I look around and see that women are more miserable now than ever, and blacks are just as dysfuntional in American society if not more so than 30-40 years ago. Why is this? Then it hit me like a ton of bricks.. it's funny (and probably no coincidence) that what I'm about to say is never said in print, on the radio, or on TV. I would gladly like to be corrected if someone's heard this before- but it is so simple... respect isn't something you "demand," it is something you earn. This fact, more than anything else, is why these movements have ultimately failed.

[Critter]

Only in your opinion have they "failed".

[Jack]

It's true that respect is earned. But if respect is deserved, and those who should be showing respect refuse to do so...what do you do.

Say you work your ass off at work. You're there early, you work late, you do all your own work plus that of others, you don't take breaks and you never complain. Yet when it comes time to promote someone, you're passed over for the boss' nephew, a total slacker. Do you just accept your fate? Do you quit trying so hard? Do you use the legal avenues available to you to get what you deserve?

Since humanity began, women have given birth to, and often raised, the family's children. They have been the backbone of the home. Yet for much of that time, and still in certain cultures, women were considered property or at best secondclass citizens. They were not given the respect they'd obviously earned.

So while I agree in part to your statement, I think it requires those who give respect to be fair and unbiased in their actions, and that has often not been the case. For some, the only alternative has been to demand that which should have been freely given.

[austin2011]

Quote by: Critter Only in your opinion have they "failed".

"Only in your opinion have they "failed"."

Just a quick note here. A statement like "in your opinion" is not a statement of any value or substance and is not a "debate." Translated, what this means is "I do not (or am not capable of) want to debate you. Fine, so why do you even bother posting anything at all? "That's your opinion" is also a common line used by children right around the time they hit puberty and they are just starting to learn how to "debate" - or at least attempting- my children went through that stage- it's because they haven't developed any mental skills just yet, or have had much of any experiences in the world to draw from. It's a stupid statement

[YourTokah]

Respect for women, in the workplace and elsewhere, is not a failed initiative. It is an ongoing process, in part because some individuals seem to think that women are not "earning" respect, and therefore are undeserving.
Feminism is about radical change - not just a rearrangement of the status quo. There is the matter of several millennia of patriarchy, which have made normal all manner of violence, abuse and exploitation. This thread helps to throw into perspective the claims some people now make that the main battles have been won, that we are now living in a ‘post-feminist’ age in which women enjoy full rights.
In America, women are legally able to do whatever a man is legally able to do, pretty much. Some things the majority of women choose not to do (like inspect sewers, for example), while some things are still done primarily by women (homemaking, for example). A glass ceiling certainly still exists in various fields and various companies, but only until a woman challenges it in court.
The rest of the world, however, has not benefitted from such change. Women are still raped and abused daily, made to live as slaves, and forced to be subserviant as second-class citizens.

The statement "In Your opinion" is accurate, as you have not provided any sort of links to information, journal articles, etc. that can demonstrate that this is not opinion, but rather, is fact. Since this is a debate, topics tend to begin as opinions, not facts, or we'd be debating about a corollary to the fact, not the fact (or in this case, opinion) itself.

[Critter]

Quote by: austin2011 "Only in your opinion have they "failed"." Just a quick note here. A statement like "in your opinion" is not a statement of any value or substance and is not a "debate." Translated, what this means is "I do not (or am not capable of) want to debate you. Fine, so why do you even bother posting anything at all? "That's your opinion" is also a common line used by children right around the time they hit puberty and they are just starting to learn how to "debate" - or at least attempting- my children went through that stage- it's because they haven't developed any mental skills just yet, or have had much of any experiences in the world to draw from. It's a stupid statement

Okay...since you want to be THAT WAY about it...

Compare today's workforce with that of, say, the 40's and before, when women were the stay-at-home moms and housewives while the men were the breadwinners. (Typically speaking, there are exceptions to every rule.) How many female doctors,lawyers and various other professionals do we have today, versus 50 years ago? How many female politicians? Would you have found many female auto mechanics back then? Compare that today, where women in such roles are much more commonplace.

[Sonart]

Feminism failed???

Women aren't serving with respect in the vastly expanded opportunities opened to them since the '70s? Women aren't now taking on respected leadership roles in national, state and local politics and government, aren't serving with respect in expanded roles in military, corporate management, finance, law, medicine, aerospance, and anything else they feel capable of performing?

Women aren't serving with respect in law enforcement, as fire fighters, in construction and in uncounted roles previously denied them, on pay scales previously denied to them, before the feminist movement?

Wow, that's news to me.

.

[Athena]

Quote by: austin2011 I was watching TV one day- some woman from NOW going on and on about how women need to demand respect in the workplace. I switch the channel, there's a black representative form the ACLU saying virtually the same thing- "we demand respect." Then I realized I've been hearing this all my life (since the 1960's) yet I had never really thought about it. I look around and see that women are more miserable now than ever, and blacks are just as dysfuntional in American society if not more so than 30-40 years ago. Why is this? Then it hit me like a ton of bricks.. it's funny (and probably no coincidence) that what I'm about to say is never said in print, on the radio, or on TV. I would gladly like to be corrected if someone's heard this before- but it is so simple... respect isn't something you "demand," it is something you earn. This fact, more than anything else, is why these movements have ultimately failed.

One group that was most influential is determining American values was the Quakers.
Old school books often stressed the impact Quakers had on the US values such as respect and equality. By this old fashioned value system, universally shared in the US, wherever a significant people were educated,

1. We respect all people, we are respectful. It matters not if the other is a bum or the mayor. The other person does not determing what kind of person we are, well mannered or cride and rude.

2. We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others. This is also called saving face in some cultures.

3. We do everything with intigrity.

What is wrong is we no longer teach this in public education. We no longer understand good manners and morals were synomous, as was virtue and strength. We have so little understanding our democracy, some are correct in saying we are not a democracy, and that means we fought every war for nothing. We are what we defended our democracy against, and yes, there is more suffering and unhappiness. Not because people demand respect, but because it is not given by people who understand the importance of being respective to our liberty.

Furthermore, when the communist took control of the USSR, the first thing they did was "liberate" women by destroying the tradition value system. The divorce and abortion rate increase and increasingly more women and children fell below the poverty level. We can add to this, increasing US women and children have been involved in crime and violence, both as victims and perpetrators. We all work for the government, our family has become more like pets we share a house with, than close people we share life with.

The problem of the technological society is the lack of the humanities. We have high tech but a lack of manners and wisdom.

The short coming of

[Athena]

I truly hate the technological societies hang up with facts. I have a lot about the importance of facts, in post that contain only opinions about the importance of facts.
Humanity is not something we can put into a list facts. Our opinions and points of view deserve respect simply because it makes life so much nicer when people are respectful of eachother. Why is it so bloody hard for us to just be pleasant with each other? It is like everyone is in a constate of war with the rest of humanity. God, we need to return to liberal education. This technological society is about as much as walking into a bar room brawl.

[Athena]

Quote by: Critter Okay...since you want to be THAT WAY about it... Compare today's workforce with that of, say, the 40's and before, when women were the stay-at-home moms and housewives while the men were the breadwinners. (Typically speaking, there are exceptions to every rule.) How many female doctors,lawyers and various other professionals do we have today, versus 50 years ago? How many female politicians? Would you have found many female auto mechanics back then? Compare that today, where women in such roles are much more commonplace.

The past was not so bad. Sure that is all we hear is how bad things were. On the other hand as mother and wive, I was the queen of my home and had complete liberty do with my time as I choose. No boss standing over me or telling me what to do. I did a lot of volunteer work and again could claim to be my own person, owned by no one, which is hugely differently from working for someone for pay and being treated like a person is owned because a person is paid to the bidding of another. Not all women are doctors, attorneys, politicians, but plenty have really awful jobs for very low pay, and the best isn't good enough, because they are still raising children in poverty with no help, and their lives are going to hell because of all the stress. Reality that is blind to what we do not want to see, is not speaking the whole truth.

I am horrified by what has happened to the status and prestege of being a wife and mother. The once honored mother is now a cuss word, and mother's have no where near the respect and support they once had from people who understood the importance of being a mother. We have family break down and social break down. The common woman is nothing unless she a doctor, attorney or politician. This is very unfriendly and not my idea of improvement. We once had Thanks Giving dinners every day and we live with family order, not corperate order and house full of people too busy to have time for each other.

[austin2011]

Quote by: Athena The past was not so bad. Sure that is all we hear is how bad things were. On the other hand as mother and wive, I was the queen of my home and had complete liberty do with my time as I choose. No boss standing over me or telling me what to do. I did a lot of volunteer work and again could claim to be my own person, owned by no one, which is hugely differently from working for someone for pay and being treated like a person is owned because a person is paid to the bidding of another. Not all women are doctors, attorneys, politicians, but plenty have really awful jobs for very low pay, and the best isn't good enough, because they are still raising children in poverty with no help, and their lives are going to hell because of all the stress. Reality that is blind to what we do not want to see, is not speaking the whole truth. I am horrified by what has happened to the status and prestege of being a wife and mother. The once honored mother is now a cuss word, and mother's have no where near the respect and support they once had from people who understood the importance of being a mother. We have family break down and social break down. The common woman is nothing unless she a doctor, attorney or politician. This is very unfriendly and not my idea of improvement. We once had Thanks Giving dinners every day and we live with family order, not corperate order and house full of people too busy to have time for each other.

Thank you. You saved me the trouble of having to burrow through this poster's TV propaganda programming. The images we see of women on TV and reality couldn't be further apart. I would also like to add that one in three employers this year will be taken to court for a frivilous lawsuit and possibly lose their business over it. The vast majority of these lawsuits will be filed by women. And then we wonder why all these American companies are outsourcing jobs overseas. The popular opinion is that it's because of greed- but there are those of us who know the real reasons...

[janefonda2005]

???

[austin2011]

The statement "In Your opinion" is accurate, as you have not provided any sort of links to information, journal articles, etc. that can demonstrate that this is not opinion, but rather, is fact. Since this is a debate, topics tend to begin as opinions, not facts, or we'd be debating about a corollary to the fact, not the fact (or in this case, opinion) itself.[/quote]

Well, excuse me! I thought everyone was paying attention in their daily lives, and to all the countless news stories over the years.. but if your only source of information is Oprah, the We channel and Oxygen, well, then let me bring you up to speed... over half the women in the U.S. are obese, over half are on psychiatric drugs.. over half of all marriages end in divorce in roughly seven years.. my God, what more evidence do you need that something is wrong? This is just common knowledge (then again all of my friends and co-workers are well educated) I mean I could spend 20- 30 minutes of my time going all over the net providing links for you to go to, but it's your job to keep yourself informed.
You can't tell me with a straight face you actually think feminism has done anything beneficial for anybody. It has been the worst social experiment in the history of time. Women haven't really benefitted at all- all they did was sue their way into the job market, drove down wages and have made a mokery of the workplace and of what used to be respectable professions. I work for a law firm and most of the women (like all the other places I've ever worked) don't actually do anything .. well, some do.. when they're there. First, they'll walk in late every morning, gossip for 20 minutes, then do about an hour of actual work then it's straight to surfing the net and personal phone calls. I've asked many a woman in the past, "why don't you just go home? You're not doing anything anyway- and we're not a charity." Then the ones who actually do work the whole time they're there- are only there half the time Women have created what is known as the "Picasso schedule" ..hm, I'll be coming in every other half Thursday.. but only on even numbered months. Women haven't really done anything but lowered the standards for professions and for our universities. They just want the "prestige"- the label, but fall completely short on actual substance and delivery. They're usually just a fake front, and all a bunch of hype and hot air. Not only did Feminism fail, in making in real difference, it never really even tried.

[Dirty Name]

Feminism is a crock. Women should be paid the market rate of other women doing the same job. There is something fundamentally wrong with women demanding "equal pay for equal work." If one woman demands such a thing on an individual basis, good for her. But an across-the-board, union-like demand for higher wages -when women as a whole CLEARLY are not worth the same as men - is a really bad idea.

Allow me to explain (now that I've gotten your adrenaline pumping):

If you have a specific payroll budget, and you need to fill a number of positions, you are always going to want to find the best talent for an affordable price, right? Of course. Now, let's say for one of those entry-level jobs, you have two applicants who are equal in every way -except one is a 25 year old woman, and the other is a 25 year old man.

Any good business person MUST consider the possibility that the female MAY find herself pregnant in the near future, that she may need time off, plus maternity leave, and may not even come back to work after the child is born.

The RISK of this happening may be miniscule, or it may be great. But the undisputable FACTS of human biology require any competent manager to discount the female candidate's salary to make up for the risk. That is why the male might get hired at $40,000 while a female in the exact same position only makes $37,000.

Is it FAIR? Sure it is. It's as fair as life itself. Get used to it folks - biology does make us different, despite what some would have us believe.

Note to liberals, feminists and political correctness police: Nowhere have I claimed that women are inferior.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Isherwood It's true that respect is earned. But if respect is deserved, and those who should be showing respect refuse to do so...what do you do. So while I agree in part to your statement, I think it requires those who give respect to be fair and unbiased in their actions, and that has often not been the case. For some, the only alternative has been to demand that which should have been freely given.

Yes, so true.


Ultimately, one must start from a level playing field to begin with befor you can start measuring whether respect is due.

[Critter]

Quote by: Athena The past was not so bad. Sure that is all we hear is how bad things were. On the other hand as mother and wive, I was the queen of my home and had complete liberty do with my time as I choose. No boss standing over me or telling me what to do. I did a lot of volunteer work and again could claim to be my own person, owned by no one, which is hugely differently from working for someone for pay and being treated like a person is owned because a person is paid to the bidding of another. Not all women are doctors, attorneys, politicians, but plenty have really awful jobs for very low pay, and the best isn't good enough, because they are still raising children in poverty with no help, and their lives are going to hell because of all the stress. Reality that is blind to what we do not want to see, is not speaking the whole truth. I am horrified by what has happened to the status and prestege of being a wife and mother. The once honored mother is now a cuss word, and mother's have no where near the respect and support they once had from people who understood the importance of being a mother. We have family break down and social break down. The common woman is nothing unless she a doctor, attorney or politician. This is very unfriendly and not my idea of improvement. We once had Thanks Giving dinners every day and we live with family order, not corperate order and house full of people too busy to have time for each other.

I actually never said the past was bad, or that the present is all that wonderful either...but 50 years ago or earlier, if a little girl said, "I want to be a doctor," the response likely would have been along the lines of, "Don't you mean a nurse, honey? Women don't become doctors, they become nurses."

Hell, I'd LOVE to go back to the 50's, back when times were simpler and people didn't have to worry about locking their doors. But I'd hate to try to find a job back then and be told, "You can't work here, you're a woman! Women don't do these sort of jobs!" Or have someone call my home and ask to speak to the man of the house, and assume I know nothing about anything.

[austin2011]

Quote by: Isherwood It's true that respect is earned. But if respect is deserved, and those who should be showing respect refuse to do so...what do you do. Say you work your ass off at work. You're there early, you work late, you do all your own work plus that of others, you don't take breaks and you never complain. Yet when it comes time to promote someone, you're passed over for the boss' nephew, a total slacker. Do you just accept your fate? Do you quit trying so hard? Do you use the legal avenues available to you to get what you deserve? Since humanity began, women have given birth to, and often raised, the family's children. They have been the backbone of the home. Yet for much of that time, and still in certain cultures, women were considered property or at best secondclass citizens. They were not given the respect they'd obviously earned. So while I agree in part to your statement, I think it requires those who give respect to be fair and unbiased in their actions, and that has often not been the case. For some, the only alternative has been to demand that which should have been freely given.

What you're saying sounds good, like all good "politically correct" statements that have now become cliches. People make politically correct statements so they can be popular, but are not really saying anything, so they're not making a difference. It's clear that "political correctness" failed as well. And also like all politically correct statements, there are a lot of problems with what you are implying here.

The part about being a hard worker and then passed over for a promotion, is really a matter of "popularity".. we all see this everyday- the most popular, social people being promoted in the companies we work for- another aspect of this is- well, it's sad, but why would an employer want to promote someone who is the backbone of a department? They're doing so well where they're at- don't go meddling... and that is a good anology for what Feminism did. Look, everybody knows that women just want attention.. constant attention (don't look at me, I didn't do it) and that has nothing to do with respect. When I respect someone, I admire them for what theydo .. a specific talent or talents- whether it's as mundane as designing plastic drinking cups or someone outrageous like a stand-up comedian.. it doesn't matter to me- but the vast majority of society today has had their perception of society short-circuited, and now it is only people in the limelight who receive what is now defined as "respect." They are confusing attention with respect. Ironically, this is a trend women started- the "just look at me" syndrome- reality TV, celebrities- people that have no talents whatsoever- or just strictly average joes and janes- I'm not putting them down.. it's just kind of stupid to "exalt" someone because they're on TV or they just got a lot of attention previously. Look at Oprah Winfrey. No talents at all. What can she do? She really doesn't have much of a personality.. very middle of the road- strictly average intelligence- no actual "talents," but because she's on television, and because she is black and a woman, suddenly and bizarrely she's "respected." But for what? Because she got behind some "causes?" Anybody can do that- that doesn't take any talent. I respect people with actual talents that contribute something to the world. Feminism is nothing more than attention getting like that of a child... "look at me! look at me.." it's all postuering and hype and no substance, and it's just another part of the crumbling of our society.

[Matt W]

You think women started this trend? Style above substance is primarily a female 'problem'? Really? You looked at the current crop of politicians lately?

*sighs*

'Celebrity' status is not a new thing, by any means. People have always flocked to famous people regardless of what they actually know about them. Look at European courts throughout the ages - how many hangers-on did each monarch have, regardless of how imbecelic or inbred they might be?

And this statement is ridiculously sexist:

Look, everybody knows that women just want attention.. constant attention

Step away from the stereotype and actually talk to some women. Your Oprah Winfrey point can easily be reflected in male talk hosts - so who cares?

[austin2011]

Step away from the stereotype and actually talk to some women.

Talk to some "actual" women, A? Well, let's see I could start with my 20 year-old daughter who I talk to everyday, well then there's my mother who calls me at work and at home everyday- and oh, there's my sister who needs me now more than ever, so I see her pretty much everyday.. and ah, yes my ex-wife who calls and shows up unexpectedly, then there's all the female employees at the law firm I work for, all the wives of all my male friends, all my female neighbors, and ah, yes, last but not least, my girlfreind. See how your liberal, political correct posturing represents the very opposite of what it claims? You stereotyped me out of your ignorance. My assessment of women is based
on something I actually know, because it is based on experience.

[Matt W]

Fair enough - but I must say, my female friends, mother, etc, have a very different view of the world than yourself, and my experiences lead me to these conclusions, rather than any 'liberal, politically correct posturing' or 'ignorance'.

Now that we've cleared that up, care to address my other points rather than just stereotype me too?