Unions

[Mia]

A while back there was some discussion on this, but I had no experience or knowledge about them so did not participate.

A friend works for a car manufacturer and the stories are worthy of being included in a book like 'Bushwhacked'.

Just unbelievable corruption between management and the unions screwing over employees and customers and the universe, it seems, listening to all that goes on.

Who in here is a member of a union and what are your thoughts on the matter?

[Prometheus]

I am not a member of a union, but I would like to throw out some thoughts on the matter.

As a raving capatalist, you might think I would dislike unions. Quite the contrary - I think they are needed. In my vision of a pure capitalist economy, unions are needed to protect the workers from big buisiness. Let's face it - buisinesses aren't very nice - the small guy needs some pretection. and unions are a great, non-governmental way to do it.

The only problem is when union matters are regulated and subsidized by the government. I think we can all agree that is not good.

A union is a voluntary organization that does not break the law - therefore there should be no restrictions on them. Same with buisinesses. The interarction between buisinesses and unions should be as unregulated as the interaction between any two private citizens.

I know a contractor in California. He was telling me how the carpenters guild is pretty small, so the carpenters (all minorities) get screwed on wages. On the other hand, the steel workers union is very large, so the steel workers make a very good wage - again, all minority. From what I can tell, the unions are a good way for small workers to bargain better wages with a big company.

[liverleef]

Quote by: Prometheus On the other hand, the steel workers union is very large, so the steel workers make a very good wage - again, all minority. From what I can tell, the unions are a good way for small workers to bargain better wages with a big company.

You make some good points but I disagree with much of your statement. Using your example of steel unions, the steel unions lobbied hard for tariffs on imported steel. Obviously they were concerned about the availability of cheap foreign steel to US manufacturers. Unfortunately tariffs would only give greater advantage to foreign factories who can purchase the cheap steel. In the end, some American plants would close because they would not be able to compete with factories in other countries who have access to the more inexpensive steel.

It's something that we don't hear much about because the workers at these small factories throughout the US that depend on cheap steel do not have a collective voice like the steel workers union have.

Also, because unions drive up the cost of labor, there will be less demand for the goods and services associated with that union. This would obviously cause there to be a decrease in the number of professionals working in that trade. In short, many people who would love to have a job in that profession are unable to because of this.

This was Milton Friedman's philosophy on unions although he explained it much more eloquently than I could. Friedman was off base on his theories about monetary policy but most of his thoughts on economics were pretty interesting.

Thats just my two cents.

[Mia]

When Unions are cutting deals with management to screw over employees, they are breaking the law (not to mention the point of their existence), and the relationship needs regulation.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: liverleef You make some good points but I disagree with much of your statement. Using your example of steel unions, the steel unions lobbied hard for tariffs on imported steel. Obviously they were concerned about the availability of cheap foreign steel to US manufacturers. Unfortunately tariffs would only give greater advantage to foreign factories who can purchase the cheap steel. In the end, some American plants would close because they would not be able to compete with factories in other countries who have access to the more inexpensive steel. It's something that we don't hear much about because the workers at these small factories throughout the US that depend on cheap steel do not have a collective voice like the steel workers union have. Also, because unions drive up the cost of labor, there will be less demand for the goods and services associated with that union. This would obviously cause there to be a decrease in the number of professionals working in that trade. In short, many people who would love to have a job in that profession are unable to because of this. This was Milton Friedman's philosophy on unions although he explained it much more eloquently than I could. Friedman was off base on his theories about monetary policy but most of his thoughts on economics were pretty interesting. Thats just my two cents.

I didn't know all of this negative stuff about the steel union. Obviously I do not support government involvement or government lobbying assosciated with unions. I believe they should be totally private. I only brought up those 2 examples to illustrate how they help the little guy get higher wages.

As far as driving up the cost of labor goes, we already do it with minimum wage. I assert that if you got rid of minimum wage (part of the capatalist utopia that I envision), the unions would balance it out. This is assuming that both the buisinesses and the unions are unregulated.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Mia When Unions are cutting deals with management to screw over employees, they are breaking the law (not to mention the point of their existence), and the relationship needs regulation.

I may be being ignorant here, but how can a union screw over the employees? The union *is* the employees! Or is it that the managment of the union is corrupt?

If the issue is corruption, then there are chriminal issues. Also, the unions elect thier leaders, so they can fire them. Either way, I don't see the need for regulation on this one.

But it seems that you have a little more knowlege on this on ehten I do, so please share.

[Mia]

I already stated the issue in some cases is corruption - it's very easy to cut deals and screw the ones they are supposed to be working for.

It threw me for a loop too, but corruption is everywhere, so I recovered quickly.

[Prometheus]

There is corruption in any organization. Just because usions have corruption dosen't mean they aren't a good way to handle a problem.

[Mia]

Quote by: Prometheus There is corruption in any organization. Just because usions have corruption dosen't mean they aren't a good way to handle a problem.

It depends on the union.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Prometheus A union is a voluntary organization that does not break the law - therefore there should be no restrictions on them. Same with buisinesses. The interarction between buisinesses and unions should be as unregulated as the interaction between any two private citizens.

Are you nuts? Unions are anything but voluntary. If a shop goes union, everyone in the shop is required to join the union or they lose their jobs. Just how voluntary does that sound to you? Further, there are many unions where you simply must belong or you cannot work in the industry at all.

Unions are criminal organizations, period.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Cephus Are you nuts? Unions are anything but voluntary. If a shop goes union, everyone in the shop is required to join the union or they lose their jobs. Just how voluntary does that sound to you? Further, there are many unions where you simply must belong or you cannot work in the industry at all.

It's still voluntary. If the union is really so terrible, then there will be enough scabs to break up the union's strangehold.

Unions are criminal organizations, period.

This is a very extreme statement, that is technically untrue.

[RickSp]

My problem with unions is not theoretical but practical. Theoretically unions are fine. Having worked closely with several unions, while never being a member, I have found the unions that I have been exposed to to be bureaucratic, corrupt, and rarely acting in the long term best interest of their members.

Over all unions in the US have simply failed in the market place. Unions do not appear to to be meeting the needs of workers. Union membership has been declining for decades. The recent fragmenting of the AFL-CIO seems to be an acknowledgement of this failure.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Mia When Unions are cutting deals with management to screw over employees, they are breaking the law (not to mention the point of their existence), and the relationship needs regulation.

Bingo! You just can't break it down any further than that. It has become nothing less than extortion, racketeering, and coercion. They operate just like the Mob, or todays government.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Prometheus It's still voluntary. If the union is really so terrible, then there will be enough scabs to break up the union's strangehold.

Many times, it is not voluntary. Try being a non-union bricklayer. Try being a non-union ship builder.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Prometheus It's still voluntary. If the union is really so terrible, then there will be enough scabs to break up the union's strangehold.

It's voluntary so long as you join the union when you're told you have to, or quit your job, or just don't work in the industry. Exactly how is that voluntary?

This is a very extreme statement, that is technically untrue.

Going by all the experience I've had with unions, no it's not.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Cephus It's voluntary so long as you join the union when you're told you have to, or quit your job, or just don't work in the industry. Exactly how is that voluntary?

Voluntary - a choice that you are not forced to make. It's not that hard to undstand. I have the option not to join. No one makes you do it. There are plenty of options - start your own union, underbid the union, work for a small enough company that they don't need union loyalty. Claiming that you are "forced" to joid a union demonstrates a poor grasp of the english language as well as a lack of creativity.

Going by all the experience I've had with unions, no it's not.

A chriminal action is one that is against the law. Something that you go to jail for. You might call thier actions chriminal in a hyperbolic sence to say that you disapprove of what they do. But usless they have broken laws, they are not chriminal.

You don't have to overstate your case to make your point. use accurate adjetives anstead of hyperbolic ones that lessen your credibility.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: Prometheus I may be being ignorant here, but how can a union screw over the employees? .

Unions just being themselves screw themselves IMO.

Great example is the auto industry. They forced the companies like Ford to give them so much stuff like unrealistic pensions, that Ford is just about going under these days.
About $2,000 of each car sale has to go to benefits. Ford now can't compete.

Government workers in unions like the teacher's unions are the worst. They always want more money and power, but they don't want to have standards or result based pay. Could it be they know they aren't that good?

Plus there has been and still is lots of underworld crime associated with unions. I think unions used to be needed regarding working conditions for employees, but their time has passed.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Mia A while back there was some discussion on this, but I had no experience or knowledge about them so did not participate. A friend works for a car manufacturer and the stories are worthy of being included in a book like 'Bushwhacked'. Just unbelievable corruption between management and the unions screwing over employees and customers and the universe, it seems, listening to all that goes on. Who in here is a member of a union and what are your thoughts on the matter?

The only thing I don't like about unions is the government help that they get.

Some unions can strike and it's illegal to hire new workers!

That's anti capitalist!


However, in a free market sense, a union is a clever and probably needed way for employees to organize.

[Athena]

Quote by: Prometheus I may be being ignorant here, but how can a union screw over the employees? The union *is* the employees! Or is it that the managment of the union is corrupt? If the issue is corruption, then there are chriminal issues. Also, the unions elect thier leaders, so they can fire them. Either way, I don't see the need for regulation on this one. But it seems that you have a little more knowlege on this on ehten I do, so please share.

No amount of regulation will stop corruption. Only education for the highest morality can stop corruption, and I wish public education would return to that. Now that being said, at the 1917 National Education Association Conference, a teacher mentioned the important role education had to play in developing unions. Unions are a form of practicing democracy, and as has been suggested, if union leaders are corrupt, something is wrong with the union and the union members are not carrying the responsiblity that is theirs.
Other forms of organization practicing the principles of democracy are granges and self help organizations like Toastmasters and community organizations like the Rotary Clubs and Lions and Elks and Masons. When we better understood democracy, we didn't rely on a central government as we do today, but came together in small organizations we could effect and that would have the power to resolve our shared problems. Public education is important to this understanding of how democracy works.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Prometheus Voluntary - a choice that you are not forced to make. It's not that hard to undstand. I have the option not to join. No one makes you do it. There are plenty of options - start your own union, underbid the union, work for a small enough company that they don't need union loyalty. Claiming that you are "forced" to joid a union demonstrates a poor grasp of the english language as well as a lack of creativity.

You really have no clue, don't you? You do *NOT* have the option not to join if you work in a union shop or the shop you work in becomes union while you are employed there. Once it becomes union, you either join or you get fired. There are no other options. Therefore, it is not voluntary. If you want to work in radio, television or many other industries, there *ARE* no non-union stations. The entire industry is controlled, hook, line and sinker by the union and in order to be involved, you join the union or you don't work.

Is there a concept here you're just not capable of grasping or what?

A chriminal action is one that is against the law. Something that you go to jail for. You might call thier actions chriminal in a hyperbolic sence to say that you disapprove of what they do. But usless they have broken laws, they are not chriminal.

Yes, unions routinely act in a criminal fashion in order to get power. The company my wife works for is non-union and will always be non-union, but the union desperately wants to get a foothold. They will sit outside with picket signs and block access to the business entirely. The police will be called, the union will behave for the few minutes the police are there and then go right back to blocking business. These are just basic harassment techniques that unions use, there are many other things that cross the legal line as well.