Income Tax, and Responsibility

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: GiveMeLiberty.org http://www.givemeliberty.org/ Former IRS CID Special Agent Joseph Banister Acquitted of Tax Fraud And Conspiracy Government Unable To Prove U.S. Law Requires Income Tax Withholding or Filing Sacramento California -- On Thursday June 23, a federal jury found former IRS Criminal Investigative Division (CID) Special Agent and CPA Joseph Banister not guilty of all counts alleging criminal tax fraud and conspiracy related to actions he took on behalf of a California business owner who had openly defied the IRS over several years by stopping withholding of all income and employment taxes from the paychecks of his workers. During the trial the Department of Justice was unable to put forth any evidence that Banister had either engaged in a conspiracy or had acted unlawfully when he shared legal research with business owner Al Thompson concluding that he had no legal obligation to withhold taxes from his workers or when he (Banister) prepared corrected tax returns for Thompson claiming his taxable income was, under U.S. law, zero. During the trial, Banister's former supervisor at IRS’s San Jose CID office, Robert Gorini (who testified via video recording) when pointedly asked, was unable to cite any U.S. law that required Banister to pay income taxes. Banister, who was forced to resign in 1999 after questioning IRS officials about their legal authority, gave Thompson’s worker’s a presentation in 2000 which reviewed his detailed investigative research of U.S. tax law which concluded that not only did the IRS lack any authority to impose income taxes on the workers, but there was no legal requirement for the business to withhold any taxes from the worker's paychecks. Banister is part of a nationwide effort seeking to force the U.S. Government to respond to a series of detailed legal Petitions for Redress of Grievances directly challenging the authority of the IRS. Last summer, the We The People Foundation initiated a landmark lawsuit with 2000 plaintiffs against the government because it has refused to answer the Petitions. The Right-To-Petition lawsuit, of which Banister is a plaintiff, is the first time in history that U.S. courts have been asked to define the meaning of the final ten words of the First Amendment. Court documents for the RTP lawsuit and scholarly research regarding the Right to Petition can be downloaded from the Lawsuit Information Center on www.GiveMeLiberty.org. Following the verdict, Banister was greeted by a throng of WTP supporters and members of his family. Tomorrow, WTP will publish additional details of this important news and stream video of post-verdict interviews of Banister & several of the jurors.

Since the State compels you pay income tax (by forcing employers to you to fill out a W-4 form, thus volunteering your income as taxable), and your employer literally forces you to fill out a W-4 form, and H&R Block will not protect you from volunteering taxes you are not obligated to pay, who is responsible?

Who would one sue to recive lost income?

Why are more people not asking questions along these lines since this ruling?

[Milton Bradley]

It should be clear to most after this ruling that we have been coerced into "volunteering" to pay income taxes by the people who work to defer their taxes onto us.


The Feds have been pressuring the States to pressure employers to more, or less force people into "volunteering".


I want to know how this spiraled out of control to such an extreme, and why others are not asking serious questions about the tactics, and the people that use them against us.

[SteveA]

Though not specifically regarding this, there was a talk show I'd heard one night where the host was talking about income taxes.

When he took calls, literally the first 15 callers or so said almost the identical thing. They'd not filed taxes in years and other than some threatening letters and a possible court case, little ever happened. After a while, the host started begging for someone who did file their taxes to please call LOL.

I remember hearing that the income taxes were technically voluntary when first created. At least that's what I'd heard from adults when I was younger. Who knows. But it's an interesting subject. I don't mind paying some taxes (there are public services I take advantage of and some relatives that receive assistance) but the cost/benefit ratio is bad.

[lsbskins1]

I wonder how many people in say, Somalia or Sri Lanka would agree that the cost benefit ratio of our tax system was not good enough. I mean, your government has found a way to keep this country humming along quite nicely in relation to some other countries over the years. I don't have a problem with the taxes I pay and I don't make very much frickin money at all. My roads are paved, my nieces and nephews go to pretty good schools, when the people who lived across the street from me felt it was a good idea to have a fist fight in their front yard, the police got there in a reasonable amount of time, my water is clean (as far as I know)... I could go on. My problem is not in paying for the services my community needs and my government provides. If you guys are concerned that you don't end up with enough money in your pockets at the end of the month and you aren't just greedy bastards (lets say people who complain about having to pay taxes who make more than the highest taxable bracket for social security deductions), then you need to start looking to the real culprits, those other greedy bastards who think it is perfectly legitamate that CEOs and such-like should make 60 bazillion times what the average worker makes. Those are your enemies, not the teacher or the cop or the fireman or the sewage guy or the garbage man or the guy who drives the snow plow...
Get a grip, please.

[tivodan1116]

Well, my bullshit alarm was going off over this one (tax dodgers have to be good BS'ers, it's the nature of their industry), so I did some research on Westlaw. Interestingly enough, there was a case decided last friday (8/5/05) that deals with exactly this.

U.S. v. Simkanin --- 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

Defendant-Appellant Richard Michael Simkanin appeals his conviction for ten counts of willfully failing to collect and pay over employment taxes in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 7202, fifteen counts of knowingly making and presenting false claims for refund of employment taxes in violation of 28 U.S.C. §§ 287 and 2, and four counts of failing to file federal income tax returns in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 7203. He also appeals his sentence of eighty-four months imprisonment. For the following reasons, we AFFIRM Simkanin's conviction and sentence.

The case record then goes on to state why... But I found some interesting sections that apply directly to this ridiculous argument....

By May 1999, Simkanin had become involved with an organization called We The People Foundation for Constitutional Education ("WTP"), which promotes the view that, despite common misconceptions, there is actually no law that requires most Americans to pay income taxes or most companies to withhold taxes from employees' paychecks. WTP also espouses the view that the Sixteenth Amendment was fraudulently declared to have been ratified. In accordance with these views, Simkanin told accountant Kelly and others that he was not required to pay taxes and that filing returns was purely voluntary. Kelly advised Simkanin that filing returns was not voluntary and that Simkanin could get into trouble if he did not file. Simkanin rejected this advice, and he began to pressure Arrow's employees to attend seminars sponsored by WTP.

Lo and behold, the same organization that published the news "story" at the top of this thread. Even more interesting, it turns out that our elusive Mr. Banister was a WITNESS who testified at this trial! Great! He must have used the trial as a forum to denounce the federal tax system, or at least he must have explained to the jury and gallery how he had beaten (previous to this case, according to the dates given by the "news" article) a similar rap and how they can and should stop paying income taxes.... Ready? Here it comes...

Banister, Schultz, and Rose all testified that they did not advise Simkanin to stop withholding taxes or to stop filing tax returns.

Well that was rather anti-climatic. Turns out that Banister, Schultz (the founder and leader of the WTP), and Rose (another leader of the movement) don't actually believe this crap, at least not enough to talk about it under oath.

When researching the law (whether it be case law, statutory, Constitutional, or regulatory), there are three general levels of quality that should be considered. The highest level is Primary source. An example of primary source would be the case I just quoted - primary sources are the actual words of a body with the power to enact law. Secondary source would be a law review or journal - that is, what a learned expert says is the law based on their research of primary sources. The third is tertiary source, which are newspapers, mainstream media of any kind, things like that which are based upon lay opinions. I place the story at the top of this thread considerably below that...

[tivodan1116]

I'll accept the silence as a token that my bullshit detector was, indeed, on the mark.

[bishop]

good job tivodan.. i find that virtually all of the time, these libertarian wannabe sites cite court rulings that are either moot or have been overruled numerous times. this seems like it's just another example. and you like to complain about propaganda milton - you're eating it by the shovelfull.

[SteveA]

Well people should expect some benefit from the taxes they paid or there'd be no reason to pay them at all.

My biggest complaint is in the fact that there's so little individual control over how those taxes are used. There are plenty of people I'm sure who'd not mind paying taxes if those taxes didn't go toward the War in Iraq or others who feel there's some other abuse happening.

The big difference between private services and government services is that there's some competition in private services. If your automobile repair guy seems to be taking advantage of you, you have the freedom to go elsewhere.

So, though we could say that we're still getting some benefit from the services, when there are obvious problems in something government is doing, unless it's an issue truly critical to enforce a widespread public standard regarding, there's no reason to allow people addressing these issues in other non-public ways. Just because many people don't feel the need to change something acutely doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of other people wanted resolution to a problem that really has no need to have been created in the first place. Do we just say "tough luck, dude" and blow it off? (That only works for so long anyway)

[tivodan1116]

Steve, I agree with you completely that the government needs to be reformed drastically to be more responsive and less intrusive to its citizens. I am merely opposed to the ridiculous "conspiracy theory" attempts to bring about this change. The way I see it, there are two ways to go about reforming, say, the tax system:

1) Realize that the tax system is what it is, and seek legal means to change it through lobbying, running for office, educating citizens to influence voting, etc.

2) Bury your head in the sand and claim that taxes are fake, optional, or for certain people only and break the law to get your way, then complain loudly (or plea bargain your charges, as most of these types do) instead of working within the system when your approach backfires.

Which way sounds more reasonable (and likely to sway public opinion in your favor)?

[Milton Bradley]

Well, judging by the responses, there will be no debate on this topic. I was just attempting to get some opinion on this subject, but instead I see I have developed a little cult of Milton Haters.


I guess it shoudn't surprise me.


P.S. I have not investigated your link yet, so I shall wait to comment.

[lsbskins1]

Milton-

I don't hate the sinner, I hate the sin...(Isn't that saying condesending and insulting)
Paying taxes is not something evil, it is something necessary. And no, it makes absolutely no sense that individual citizens should be able to dictate where their money is spent. In for a penny, in for a pound, if you know what I mean. Say I don't like a particular presidents enviromental policies, do I get to withold "my" money from the EPA. Don't think marajuana should be illegal... no money from "me" to justice. See how that could spiral out of control and make the administration of any government services damn near impossible. Your say is your vote. That's it. Me too. It's how the system functions.

[j_freeman]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Paying taxes is not something evil, it is something necessary. And no, it makes absolutely no sense that individual citizens should be able to dictate where their money is spent.

It makes absolutely no sense to you that you should be the one to decide what you earn is spent on, instead of others?

[mr.perfecto]

You do decide where to spend what you earn. You don't have 100% authority to decide where what you contribute in taxes is spent.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: j_freeman It makes absolutely no sense to you that you should be the one to decide what you earn is spent on, instead of others?

No, because it's pretty much impossible to make that happen. Can you imagine the paperwork and buerocracy you would create in even attempting to accomplish this. And besides, given the choice most people probably think they shouldn't have to pay taxes at all and that seems pretty much proof positive to me that most aren't rational when it comes to taxes. Most peoples appreciation of the ways that the things their government does helps them seems pretty limited. Do not misunderstand me. The system needs to be more transparent. The people should be able to see more clearly where the money goes, but that does not translate into being able to say, " I don't drive into (insert large city name), so why should I pay taxes to improve the roads going into the city? You should pay because the goods and services that come into and go out of that city improve your life and for a hundred other reasons but people are too lazy to think in terms that are that "far" removed from the obvious.