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moustache · Jul 18, 2005, 08:10 pm

More than once a highschool teacher has complained about his/her pay. In my experiences, the teachers continually mention that they are basically working for free. They constanly complain about their incomes. I have always had suspicions about the teachers income, and am tired of hearing them complain. I recently read an article in my local newspaper (The Oregonian) about teachers pay. It states these facts:

- In Oregon, health and retirement benefits for school employees is 55% higher than the national average.

- If Oregon were to lower its benefits to the average, schools would have another $500 million next year to bring back lost programs and reduce class sizes.

- If nothing is fixed, retirement benefits will eat up 25% of overall school budgets for the next 20 years.

- The states per-student funding has fallen nearly $1000 below the national average.

Oregon will never build the kind of strong schools it says it wants as long as it spends every new dollar it musters for education on health and retirement benefits for public employees.

All of the schools money is being used just to ensure that school employees can retire in their mid-50s at full salary, or more.

And why are the teachers making so much damn money? Because if they dont like their pay they can just run to their little unions and start a strike.

Im sorry, but its time for the teachers to get a real job, and see what life is really like out in the real world.

What do you think folks?

Osborn F Enready · Jul 18, 2005, 09:48 pm

I think you need to look at more than one tiny area in Oregon to think you see where the problem is.

It isn't teachers making too much money, or too good of benefits in my opinion, it is the fact that the government, instead of the citizens is setting the priorities on where that money is spent.

In my part of Ohio, it is almost as though school issues are at the bottom of the list when it comes time to do the budget. They allocate away all the money, and then cry that "schools are in jeapordy because our budget is falling short". The main thing is, that money is allocated to projects it SHOULDN'T BE BEING USED FOR in the first place, and then they hit up the citizens to fund the schools, which they left NO BUDGET FOR, since we have a soft spot for school funding and we can always just "hit-up the taxpayers again" to fill in the gap.

If you want accountability in schooling, get the government OUT OF IT.

Sonart · Jul 19, 2005, 12:42 am

Quote:

Quote by: moustache

Im sorry, but its time for the teachers to get a real job, and see what life is really like out in the real world.

What do you think folks?

Obviously you've never taught, have you?

Get a real job? Pray tell, what qualifies, in your mind, as a real job? The national average annual income for teachers is around $46,000, all of whom are required to have college degrees. The average American with a college degree earns about $48,000 annually. The U.S. national average yearly income is around $38,000, of a population of which maybe 25-30% have college degrees. This while doing one of the most important jobs this country has, preparing the next generation of adults to take their places in society.

Exactly what part of "life out in the real world" are teachers missing?

.

belverron · Jul 19, 2005, 12:56 am

As it stands, schools can't afford to be choosy about who teaches our nation's children. Don't you think it would be nice if we paid enough that well-qualified people want to apply for a job? If we can't manage that, I agree with Osborn: don't waste taxpayers' money on a second-rate system.

belverron · Jul 19, 2005, 12:59 am

Here's a link based on my admittedly sadder-than-average state.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specia...achersalary04/

*edit* WOW Texas kids are dumb. I just read some of that link.

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 19, 2005, 11:08 am

Public school teachers have it absolutely made.

Work 6-8 hours a day, M-F for 186 days a year making $40000. Wow.

lsbskins1 · Jul 19, 2005, 11:40 am

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

Public school teachers have it absolutely made.

Work 6-8 hours a day, M-F for 186 days a year making $40000. Wow.

WOW, you are an idiot. They sit in class with students 6-8 hours a day teaching. But they have to lesson plan and they don't do that during those 6-8 hours because they are teaching the kids. Then there is the time spent grading papers and tests and such like. And then add in the time spent in departmental meetings and parent-teacher conferences...
oh, never mind.

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 19, 2005, 06:33 pm

Ok, so they work 200 days a year.

That's nothing.

And grading tests? Look up "scantron" in google.

ibm · Jul 19, 2005, 06:42 pm

so, tman, you don't think teachers as a whole are underpaid or should be paid more (so to attract higher quality people)?

castille · Jul 20, 2005, 01:19 am

Some of my friends who couldn't get jobs went back to school, got a PhD, and became a college/university teacher.

They say its the easiest job ever. Acceptable pay ($90,000 for a university teacher), excellent hours (about 7 hours a day, INCLUDING grading work), and you can't get fired/dismissed unless you do something illegal.

belverron · Jul 20, 2005, 01:21 am

Quote:

They say its the easiest job ever. Acceptable pay ($90,000 for a university teacher), excellent hours (about 7 hours a day, INCLUDING grading work), and you can't get fired/dismissed unless you do something illegal.

Maybe if they're one of the few lucky enough to get tenure....

belverron · Jul 20, 2005, 01:23 am

Quote:

Ok, so they work 200 days a year.

Probably, and they work many hours a day for which they aren't paid. While major tests are often scantron nowadays, most others assignments aren't multiple choice.

Whodoe! · Jul 20, 2005, 03:09 am

Oh man ... I looked those little mosters in the eyes once as a stand-in for some charity thing. Spooky stuff. I am pretty sure they meant me great personal harm. Scares me even today how they were haunted by a lack of facial expressions.

I think people ought to have a go at teaching, just a few days, and then decide how much to pay.

**Matt W** · Jul 20, 2005, 04:54 am

Point is, the 'teaching experience' differs incredibly depending on what country you're in. Right now, I wouldn't wish it on anyone to be a teacher in the UK - not unless the school you're at was privately funded with very few pupils.

In China, as Castille has just highlighted, it sounds cushy. Different culture, different levels of bureacracy.

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 20, 2005, 12:48 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ibm

so, tman, you don't think teachers as a whole are underpaid or should be paid more (so to attract higher quality people)?

They deserve market value, just like any job.

To be honest, there are probably quite a few teachers who are already paid more than market value (considering how much they work).

There is no such thing as teaching needing more money to attract new people. That equilibrium is automatically maintained by the martket. IE, if many teachers retire and there is great demand for new teachers, then pay will go up. Etc.

Prometheus · Jul 20, 2005, 01:07 pm

Everyone in the government makes more than they are worth. I fight fires for the National Parks. They pay more more than they probably should. True, it's hazard pay, but it's still pretty extravagant.

ibm · Jul 20, 2005, 01:12 pm

t-man, #1, a totally free, supply-n-demand-driven market never has existed. #2, the teacher market is manipulated.

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 20, 2005, 07:08 pm

Actually, it exists right now in Somalia since they have no government and it is very close to that right now in Hong Kong (actually most of china), Singapore, etc. That's why all those place's economies are the best in the world (except Somalia of course since they're relatively new).

Not sure what you mean by the teacher market is manipulated. Perhaps you could explain yourself?

G. Adams · Jul 20, 2005, 07:18 pm

If the laws of supply and demand were placed upon the teaching profession, their pay packets would go up, not down. There arn't enough teachers, demand is high, pay goes up. So increase their pay.

Oh, and I think we should start a fund. I'd like to send Tman to Somalia to enjoy the capitalist paradise that is being built there...

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 21, 2005, 09:35 am

Right now their standard of living is too low. Maybe in 25 years (assuming the government doesn't interfere). They have great, untapped beaches. Perhaps I can set up a resort.

So you claim that demand is high enough for teachers that their pay should go up. What's stopping that now?

Jul 18, 2005, 08:10 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
moustache Conservative Location: P-Town, OR Posts: 446	Teachers complain about pay, but what are the facts? More than once a highschool teacher has complained about his/her pay. In my experiences, the teachers continually mention that they are basically working for free. They constanly complain about their incomes. I have always had suspicions about the teachers income, and am tired of hearing them complain. I recently read an article in my local newspaper (The Oregonian) about teachers pay. It states these facts: - In Oregon, health and retirement benefits for school employees is 55% higher than the national average. - If Oregon were to lower its benefits to the average, schools would have another $500 million next year to bring back lost programs and reduce class sizes. - If nothing is fixed, retirement benefits will eat up 25% of overall school budgets for the next 20 years. - The states per-student funding has fallen nearly $1000 below the national average. Oregon will never build the kind of strong schools it says it wants as long as it spends every new dollar it musters for education on health and retirement benefits for public employees. All of the schools money is being used just to ensure that school employees can retire in their mid-50s at full salary, or more. And why are the teachers making so much damn money? Because if they dont like their pay they can just run to their little unions and start a strike. Im sorry, but its time for the teachers to get a real job, and see what life is really like out in the real world. What do you think folks? Q: What's a conservative? A: A liberal who made it through adolescence.

Jul 18, 2005, 09:48 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	I think you need to look at more than one tiny area in Oregon to think you see where the problem is. It isn't teachers making too much money, or too good of benefits in my opinion, it is the fact that the government, instead of the citizens is setting the priorities on where that money is spent. In my part of Ohio, it is almost as though school issues are at the bottom of the list when it comes time to do the budget. They allocate away all the money, and then cry that "schools are in jeapordy because our budget is falling short". The main thing is, that money is allocated to projects it SHOULDN'T BE BEING USED FOR in the first place, and then they hit up the citizens to fund the schools, which they left NO BUDGET FOR, since we have a soft spot for school funding and we can always just "hit-up the taxpayers again" to fill in the gap. If you want accountability in schooling, get the government OUT OF IT. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jul 19, 2005, 12:56 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
belverron Beloved Truth-Dragon Location: Texas Posts: 1,299	As it stands, schools can't afford to be choosy about who teaches our nation's children. Don't you think it would be nice if we paid enough that well-qualified people want to apply for a job? If we can't manage that, I agree with Osborn: don't waste taxpayers' money on a second-rate system. If only I could saith, so should I.

Jul 19, 2005, 12:59 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
belverron Beloved Truth-Dragon Location: Texas Posts: 1,299	Here's a link based on my admittedly sadder-than-average state. http://www.window.state.tx.us/specia...achersalary04/ edit WOW Texas kids are dumb. I just read some of that link. If only I could saith, so should I. Last edited by belverron; Jul 19, 2005 at 01:03 am.

Jul 20, 2005, 01:19 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Some of my friends who couldn't get jobs went back to school, got a PhD, and became a college/university teacher. They say its the easiest job ever. Acceptable pay ($90,000 for a university teacher), excellent hours (about 7 hours a day, INCLUDING grading work), and you can't get fired/dismissed unless you do something illegal. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jul 19, 2005, 11:08 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Public school teachers have it absolutely made. Work 6-8 hours a day, M-F for 186 days a year making $40000. Wow.

Jul 19, 2005, 06:33 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Ok, so they work 200 days a year. That's nothing. And grading tests? Look up "scantron" in google.

Jul 19, 2005, 06:42 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
ibm Igneous Magma Posts: 672	so, tman, you don't think teachers as a whole are underpaid or should be paid more (so to attract higher quality people)?

Jul 20, 2005, 03:09 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Whodoe! Igneous Magma Posts: 192	Oh man ... I looked those little mosters in the eyes once as a stand-in for some charity thing. Spooky stuff. I am pretty sure they meant me great personal harm. Scares me even today how they were haunted by a lack of facial expressions. I think people ought to have a go at teaching, just a few days, and then decide how much to pay.

Jul 20, 2005, 04:54 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,384	Point is, the 'teaching experience' differs incredibly depending on what country you're in. Right now, I wouldn't wish it on anyone to be a teacher in the UK - not unless the school you're at was privately funded with very few pupils. In China, as Castille has just highlighted, it sounds cushy. Different culture, different levels of bureacracy. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 20, 2005, 01:07 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Prometheus Glad to be back! Location: Vernal, UT Posts: 1,725	Everyone in the government makes more than they are worth. I fight fires for the National Parks. They pay more more than they probably should. True, it's hazard pay, but it's still pretty extravagant. Fixed ideas are like a cramp in the foot - the best remedy against it is to tread on it. -Søren Kierkegaard

Jul 20, 2005, 01:12 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
ibm Igneous Magma Posts: 672	t-man, #1, a totally free, supply-n-demand-driven market never has existed. #2, the teacher market is manipulated.

Jul 20, 2005, 07:08 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Actually, it exists right now in Somalia since they have no government and it is very close to that right now in Hong Kong (actually most of china), Singapore, etc. That's why all those place's economies are the best in the world (except Somalia of course since they're relatively new). Not sure what you mean by the teacher market is manipulated. Perhaps you could explain yourself?

Jul 20, 2005, 07:18 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	If the laws of supply and demand were placed upon the teaching profession, their pay packets would go up, not down. There arn't enough teachers, demand is high, pay goes up. So increase their pay. Oh, and I think we should start a fund. I'd like to send Tman to Somalia to enjoy the capitalist paradise that is being built there... Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jul 21, 2005, 09:35 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Right now their standard of living is too low. Maybe in 25 years (assuming the government doesn't interfere). They have great, untapped beaches. Perhaps I can set up a resort. So you claim that demand is high enough for teachers that their pay should go up. What's stopping that now?