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Osborn F Enready · Jul 18, 2005, 07:22 pm

Great post perfecto, another one solidly rounded out with logical deduction......

Must have just wanted the last word, eh?

Permission denied....

Osborn F Enready · Jul 18, 2005, 07:23 pm

By the way, I notice you are in the overwhelming majority on this vote too.

Milton Bradley · Jul 18, 2005, 07:25 pm

Quote:

Quote by: mr.perfecto

or because no one wants junkies walking around on the streets.

Yeah, because junkies walking the streets are so much worse than drunks driving the streets.

mr.perfecto · Jul 21, 2005, 06:35 am

Quote:

Quote by: Milton Bradley

Yeah, because junkies walking the streets are so much worse than drunks driving the streets.

DUI carries stiff penalties in just about every state, but thank you Milton for illustrating my point. The restrictions on alcohol aren't based on keeping adults from hurting themselves. Freedom requires locking up buttholes before they harm us all. Society 101 fellows.

Osborn, I'm working on the 'Libertopia Debunked' thread I intend to start in the next few days. I'm going to start with private property rights and expand from there. Trim your nails and set aside some protein bars my friend. The debate of the century is just around the corner.

Osborn F Enready · Jul 21, 2005, 01:07 pm

Mr Perfecto said:
Osborn, I'm working on the 'Libertopia Debunked' thread I intend to start in the next few days. I'm going to start with private property rights and expand from there. Trim your nails and set aside some protein bars my friend. The debate of the century is just around the corner.

I say:
Let's go.

ibm · Jul 21, 2005, 01:28 pm

on the subject though. if drug is legalized, of course the crime rate will drop. it's a simple math, as what is considered "crime" will be less.

on the same token, any time government "illegalize" something, the crime rate will likely go up.

Osborn F Enready · Jul 21, 2005, 01:48 pm

IBM said:
on the subject though. if drug is legalized, of course the crime rate will drop. it's a simple math, as what is considered "crime" will be less.
on the same token, any time government "illegalize" something, the crime rate will likely go up.

I say:
Of course it can be attacked from that angle IBM, and in a sense you are correct. But there are several implications to "illegality" that are being overlooked.

For one thing, what typifies the "typical" arrestee for Cocaine? Most arrests are users.

In a large number of these cases, the majority, users are normally law abiding citizens with jobs, and sometimes family and kids.

Is it right to imprison people, who are in all other aspects good people, because they USE a substance, sometimes for the first time, just because they are caught with a substantial amount that requires years in prison, with HARD CORE, VIOLENT criminals?

Have studies as well as personal accounts in the hundreds not yet shown that IT IS A FACT that many people who are essentially good citizens when put in prison, come out with a different outlook as well as the results of many bad influences picked up in prison?

It begs to ask if our prison system even works, as it is supposed to.

My point is, if cocaine were legal, and I don't mean legal like candy, food or those types of things, I mean legal like alchohol, or possibly even like prescription drugs, it would not REQUIRE PRISON TIME for users, or addicts who became addicted unknowingly. Instead, these people could be educated through outreach programs that already exist without fear of imprisonment, or loss of home, property, career, family. They could be cured, if they sought cure, without fear of legal reprimand.

If our goal is to make a better society, is it not better to educate, heal and inform than imprison, corrupt and label?

Pushers are another story, and I would never defend a pusher. Pushers push drugs on kids, or anyone they can pressure sell. This is wrong. These would also be gone in large part if drugs were legalized and accessible through a voluntary prescription through a doctor or pharmacist. Quality of the drugs could be regulated (hard drugs) so as to prevent overdoses do to quality variation. Harsh cutting substances could be eliminated, thereby reducing death due to toxicity.

There is a lot to this debate, that I think many on the ANTI-LEGALIZATION side fail to address.

belverron · Jul 21, 2005, 02:10 pm

My parents did cocaine... everyone did, then. They thought it was about to be legalized. Judging by my parents... *votes*

Milton Bradley · Jul 22, 2005, 01:40 am

Quote:

Quote by: mr.perfecto

DUI carries stiff penalties in just about every state, but thank you Milton for illustrating my point. The restrictions on alcohol aren't based on keeping adults from hurting themselves. Freedom requires locking up buttholes before they harm us all. Society 101 fellows.

It is fine to make laws that punish people after the crime has been commited. It is quite another thing to punish people in a pre-emptive strike for crimes they have yet to commit.

Federal bans all have that pre-emptive flavor in my opinion. Not to mention the unconstitutionality of that type of behavior. The powers are retained by the States, and the people, not th BATF, and the FDA.

View Poll Results: If cocaine was legalized would crime rates drop?
YES	13	72.22%
NO	5	27.78%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 18. You may not vote

Jul 18, 2005, 07:22 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Great post perfecto, another one solidly rounded out with logical deduction...... Must have just wanted the last word, eh? Permission denied.... Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jul 18, 2005, 07:23 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	By the way, I notice you are in the overwhelming majority on this vote too. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jul 21, 2005, 01:07 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Mr Perfecto said: Osborn, I'm working on the 'Libertopia Debunked' thread I intend to start in the next few days. I'm going to start with private property rights and expand from there. Trim your nails and set aside some protein bars my friend. The debate of the century is just around the corner. I say: Let's go. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jul 21, 2005, 01:28 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
ibm Igneous Magma Posts: 672	on the subject though. if drug is legalized, of course the crime rate will drop. it's a simple math, as what is considered "crime" will be less. on the same token, any time government "illegalize" something, the crime rate will likely go up. economic left/right: -3.38 social libertarian/authoritarian: -3.59

Jul 21, 2005, 01:48 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	IBM said: on the subject though. if drug is legalized, of course the crime rate will drop. it's a simple math, as what is considered "crime" will be less. on the same token, any time government "illegalize" something, the crime rate will likely go up. I say: Of course it can be attacked from that angle IBM, and in a sense you are correct. But there are several implications to "illegality" that are being overlooked. For one thing, what typifies the "typical" arrestee for Cocaine? Most arrests are users. In a large number of these cases, the majority, users are normally law abiding citizens with jobs, and sometimes family and kids. Is it right to imprison people, who are in all other aspects good people, because they USE a substance, sometimes for the first time, just because they are caught with a substantial amount that requires years in prison, with HARD CORE, VIOLENT criminals? Have studies as well as personal accounts in the hundreds not yet shown that IT IS A FACT that many people who are essentially good citizens when put in prison, come out with a different outlook as well as the results of many bad influences picked up in prison? It begs to ask if our prison system even works, as it is supposed to. My point is, if cocaine were legal, and I don't mean legal like candy, food or those types of things, I mean legal like alchohol, or possibly even like prescription drugs, it would not REQUIRE PRISON TIME for users, or addicts who became addicted unknowingly. Instead, these people could be educated through outreach programs that already exist without fear of imprisonment, or loss of home, property, career, family. They could be cured, if they sought cure, without fear of legal reprimand. If our goal is to make a better society, is it not better to educate, heal and inform than imprison, corrupt and label? Pushers are another story, and I would never defend a pusher. Pushers push drugs on kids, or anyone they can pressure sell. This is wrong. These would also be gone in large part if drugs were legalized and accessible through a voluntary prescription through a doctor or pharmacist. Quality of the drugs could be regulated (hard drugs) so as to prevent overdoses do to quality variation. Harsh cutting substances could be eliminated, thereby reducing death due to toxicity. There is a lot to this debate, that I think many on the ANTI-LEGALIZATION side fail to address. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jul 21, 2005, 02:10 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
belverron Beloved Truth-Dragon Location: Texas Posts: 1,305	My parents did cocaine... everyone did, then. They thought it was about to be legalized. Judging by my parents... votes If only I could saith, so should I.