Social order and liberty

**Athena** · 20th June 2005, 12:50 PM

Morgan Freeman and Agent007, I hope you don't mind me using your posts for a new thread. Marriage is an important part of social order, and social order is essential to liberty. Marriage was an important part of our culture, but this does not seem so today. We have a paradox- Burke, an Enlgish philosopher during the time of the Amercian and French revolutions, said the most free and the least free. That is, only if we willing submit to the morals and virtues of social order, can there be liberty. If we do not willing submit, there is anarchy and since anarchy is so destructive it can not be tolerated, the unwillingness to submit to the morals and virtues of social order, becomes a police state with authority over the people.

The culture of the US has always opposed all authority, and as long as they were prepared by public education to have good moral judgement, they could enjoy liberty.
However, when they replaced this education for education for technology and left moral training to the church, they culturally unleashed their self indulgent, rebellion against any controls over their life, and the result is very destructive.

Morgan_Freeman
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
Quote by: Agent007
Morgan, you are considering marriage from an American point of view. It is true that in America, about half of marriages end in divorce and that the maritial system is rather outdated; however, that is a distinctive feature of the nation's culture. In most other countries that are not fully Americanized, such as India or Poland, marriage is a sacred function that is societally essential and is a defining factor of their cultures, which are usually high-context ones.

I don't care what other cultures do, and I don't care what this culture does.
My point is that "culture" should not be able to dictate such a large part of our life. It should not be invasive to the point of supporting entire societal institutions.

An acceptable level of culture is the manner in which we say hello to eachother when we walk down the street. Anything more complex than that is a sacrifice of our individuality and our conscious minds in the name of "tradition".
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**Milton Bradley** · 21st June 2005, 12:49 PM

I am with Morgan Freeman on this issue.

I am far enough outside the societal norm that I suffer a great deal from having to explain why I do not wish to partake in all of contemporary cultures rituals, or traditions. I am forced make great sacrifices to my principals just to exist within this society while other people pratice what I refer to as their superstitions. I am just socially retarded enough not to be able to function in circumstances where a great deal of ritual is required.

I detest contemporary culture in the U.S.. A classic nonconformist, though, perhaps not by choice.

**Chalk** · 21st June 2005, 01:34 PM

I like how the vast majority of posts are about America/ns. When one of you guys states they don't like normal social constraints...you link it back to American values and modern society.. and then someone elses comes along and makes out like the comment was ignorant of other cultures. GUYS! You aren't opperating in a vaccum, you are a multi-cultural nation, so you can't mouth off at eachother for being ignorant of how certain cultures celebrate. On a forum, don't assume- you can't see a person, you don't know them. Why attack their view with 'oh yeah, well did you think about this? You lefties/Right-wingers never do'. So many debates get de-railed by personal attacks, and other people tearing the post of others apart section by section, with a bitter 'you're wrong' comment. It's childish.

Addressing the post now- I don't think saying things like 'I am opposed to marriage' is destructive. It is a personal view shared by SOME people. OK so 'Marriage was an important part of our culture, but this does not seem so today' Societies do, over time, change. We used to have slavery, limited rights for women, and when she married she became property. Historically, I find this objectionable. There are many little girls who dream of their wedding day, but I was happier reading books and developing my creative skills. Society has changed, and women and men no longer have the Victorian style 'separate spheres'. Marriage is not a girl's goal in life. This is not necessarily damaging to society; these women could be your doctor, your lawyer, your college proffessor or anything a man could be. Not just a wife. And like I say it's not an American phenomenon, just that society develops, for better or worse, over time. Therefore religious belief, social norm and such may CHANGE. I know a lot of people won't like that, but just live with it.

**Milton Bradley** · 21st June 2005, 05:22 PM

It has nothing to do with how other cultures celebrate, as you put it.

It has everything to do with other peoples values being shoved places they do not belong.

I am very respectful of others, and I concede a Hell of a lot while recieving nothing ( others trample my rights regularly) in return, except perhaps the ridicule of the Fedayeen Bush for my "anti-American" stances on certain issues.

I digress, as I was speaking on a whole different level than you imply. I was speaking about the whole structure of society in the U.S. specifically.

**Chalk** · 21st June 2005, 05:25 PM

Granted you were referencing American culture, but I'm just saying there are people I know that feel similar.

**Morgan_Freeman** · 21st June 2005, 05:58 PM

Quote by: Athena

Marriage is an important part of social order,

Are you going to attempt to explain how?

**Chalk** · 21st June 2005, 06:02 PM

Morgan: I think it is to some people, for individual reasons.
Athena: I think it is trivial to some people, and not important, for individual reasons.

Each to their own.

**Morgan_Freeman** · 21st June 2005, 06:30 PM

Do I think marriage is going to go away anytime soon? No.
Do I think it is a necessary feature of human civilization? No.
Should there be laws governing the institution? Absolutely not.

**Osborn F Enready** · 21st June 2005, 07:50 PM

Chalk said:
And like I say it's not an American phenomenon, just that society develops, for better or worse, over time.

I say:
The American phenomenon is the part about how the establishment, is changing society against the wishes of a large part of Americans, in some cases, a majority. THEY are developing society, and WE are living out their concept of proper conduct. I don't happen to agree with their society, and I am required as a citizen to not only participate, but also to pay for it, thanks to income tax, FICA, Social Security(which is the only program I know where SOMEONE ELSE can sign you up and yet YOU are responsible to paying into it for LIFE with NO GUARANTEE.).

In my opinion, Republicans and Democrats have ruined this society, as says the Constitution. Our Constitution BARELY stands any significance after 154+ years of their MUTUAL corruption of every facet of its protection.

Hence the reason we no longer operate under Constitutional Law, though they won't admit it. The only reason we have FEDERAL law books that are as big as they are is because they lulled the people to sleep in protecting their rights, through years of "peace and security" that they claimed we had, yet we still sacrificed our family members through service to this nation in wars that had NOTHING to do with OUR peace and security.

This current government is built on a lie, and that lies thread is currently being pulled.

We will see just how far the sweater of "socialist inspired" society holds up once they realize federal dependance, REQUIRES sacrificing their rights, and their childrens, and their childrens childrens rights also.

America needs to wake up to the progressive machine that is killing this nation, and forcing the people who SHOULD be justified by LAW in the Constitution, to once again pick up arms to defend the Constitution, and the rights to liberty and justice for all within this nation.

Allow me to remind some of you who believe in the nanny state a little about what this nation was founded to protect, and exactly why so many Americans are downright HOSTILE towards your inclinations at citizen funded, government overseen and operated "well-meaning" programs and legislation:

“It is my right to be uncommon...if I can; I seek opportunity...not security. I do not wish to be a kept citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me. I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, to fail and to succeed. I refuse to barter incentive for a dole. I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence; the thrill of fulfillment to the stole calm of utopia. I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout. I will never cower before any master nor bend to any threat. It is my heritage to stand erect, proud, and unafraid; to think and act for myself; enjoy the benefits of my creations and to face the world boldly and say, This I have done, and this is what it means to be an American.”
-Dean Alfrange

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
-Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

“If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom, and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too.”
-W. Somerset Maugham

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.”
-Patrick Henry, from “Against the Federal Constitution”, 1788-Jun-5

“It is also important for the State to inculcate in its subjects an aversion to any "conspiracy theory of history;" for a search for "conspiracies" means a search for motives and an attribution of responsibility for historical misdeeds. If, however, any tyranny imposed by the State, or venality, or aggressive war, was caused not by the State rulers but by mysterious and arcane "social forces," or by the imperfect state of the world or, if in some way, everyone was responsible ("We Are All Murderers," proclaims one slogan), then there is no point to the people becoming indignant or rising up against such misdeeds. Furthermore, an attack on "conspiracy theories" means that the subjects will become more gullible in believing the "general welfare" reasons that are always put forth by the State for engaging in any of its despotic actions. A "conspiracy theory" can unsettle the system by causing the public to doubt the State's ideological propaganda.”
-Murray N. Rothbard, in The Anatomy of the State

“The terrible thing about the quest for truth is that you find it.”
-Remy de Gourmont

“A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal.”
-Oscar Wilde

“It is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts ... For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.”
-Patrick Henry

“Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it. The history of Liberty is a history of resistance. The history of Liberty is a history of limitations of Governmental power, not the increase of it.”
-Woodrow Wilson

“I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“That government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Experience teaches us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent.”
-Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, in a 1928 decision

“To say that any people are not fit for freedom, is to make poverty their choice, and to say they had rather be loaded with taxes than not.”
-Thomas Paine, 1792

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
-Henry Ford, a man admired by Adolf Hitler

“...all of us here at the policy-making level have had experience with directives... from the White House.... The substance of them is that we shall use our grant-making power so as to alter our life in the United States that we can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union.”
-H. Rowan Gaither, Jr., President, Ford Foundation, to Norman Dodd, Congressional Reese Commission, 1954

“What luck for the rulers that men do not think.”
-Adolf Hitler

“You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy.”
-Charles Manson, leader of a murderous cult of entirely unskeptical followers

“Americans are now certifiably insane. They are crazy. They are suffering a mass psychosis. They have lost their own ability to discern right from wrong.”
-Joseph Farah. editor of WorldNetDaily, 1999-Apr-12

“We suffer primarily not from our vices or our weaknesses, but from our illusions. We are haunted, not by reality, but by those images we have put in their place.”
-Daniel Boorstin

“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
-Albert Einstein (1879-1955) (Einstein also advocated world government, the disarmament of nations, and dialectical pacifism, and was a generally nasty man)

“Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

“The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning, but without understanding.”
-Louis D. Brandeis

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”
-Bertrand Russel

“Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure.”
-Reinhold Niebuhr, Professor of Theology at Union Theological Seminary (NYC), as quoted by George Stephanopoulos

“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
-George Santayana

“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.”
-C.S. Lewis

**Athena** · 21st June 2005, 07:58 PM

Let me try that again. All societies have some form of order, or there is nothing but total chaos.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam have all favored patriarchy. Now we can have matriarchy and still have family order, so I used the term family order. Now I going to make a huge leap and hope I don't loose you all.

Athens modeled itself after the Gods, and strongly valued family order. Sparta, another Greek city/state didn't value families and ordered its society with military order. Sparta, used its military to enslave non Spartans, to produce everything Spartans needed. Pretty much as the US and Walmart are doing now. The only thing a Spartan male had to do was serve the military. The only thing Spartan women had to do was produce and raise children. Spartans did not live together as families. The men lived in barricks as soon as the came of age and until they were of retirement age. Children were pretty much the result of a soldier sneaking out and have sex with a women. The lack of family order in Sparta was not a problem, because the military order of life, provided the basic needs of everyone. In fact, Spartans didn't have money, so they could not develop personal interest if they wanted to.

Athens was strongly opposed to the military order of Sparta and did not provide everything for its people who had to earn a living and take care of their own families. When owning property was essential to have an income, Athens created government jobs for those who did not own property. Athens so managed their economy that it grew rapidly as has our economy. By the way, the word sparce comes from Spartan.

Now, Germans had family order but darn near detroyed the country with the 30 Years War, which started out as a war between Cahtolics and Protestants. The Prussians were welcomed to give Germany order and defense. The Prussians use military order and applied it to citizens. A modern term for this is Bureaucratic domination. I guess all the modern countries today are more Bureaucratic domination than family order. Understand this means a huge shift in authority and power away from the individual to the ruling authority.

For all the problems that come with marriage, I think our liberty and personal power is much better served by family order, than Bureaucratic domination. Are you sure we aught to throw out family values in favor of "effecient government" replacing patriarchical and matriarchical authority? THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM A PERSONAL CHOICE OF IF MARRIAGE IS FOR YOU OR NOT. It doesn't matter that much if this order serves the military or industry, so the US is not as different from Nazi, Germany as most believe. The order is is far from family order. I am talking "social order", not romanitc love and they live happily ever after. The authority of our parents ends, but government authority never ends. We can divorce marriage partners, but not our government. Can you grasp the huge shift in liberty and power away from individuals and exclusively controlled by centralize government, that can out law pot or anything else it wants to outlaw, and can enforce income tax methods that were not made legal. We are accepting an authority of government over our lives, that is directly opposed to democracy, and it is hypocritical to make war on Iraq in the name of speading democracy. No way did Saddam have so much power over the individuals of Iraq, he did not have bureaucratic order for this.