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m5lange1 · Feb 15, 2004, 07:10 pm

Thanks Justin that ws refreshing.

Edit: HAHA I started this one just after I read Justin's post. It in no way reflects anything posted during the time I was typing. Sorry I am so pokey.

Lightberer.....
You don't think my responses were reasonable? I am not surprised. I respoded out of courtesy trying to answer your questions as honestly as I could.

My suspicions were that even if I gave answers you liked you would have stayed up till the wee hours thinking about sone way to claim that I sidestepped your "obvious and simple" questions.

I did not answer ones that made accusations I do not understand.

From your last post....
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
BTW the question avoided was: "Out of curiosity, would you thank the propagandaists of a facists, or socialist regime for "teaching" your children that one group is better or more deserving than another?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The answer to just that is NO

The part I did not understand was
From your previous post where the question was originally posted
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Out of curiosity, would you thank the propagandaists of a facists, or socialist regime for "teaching" your children that one group is better or more deserving than another? If not, which I assume you would not, then why thank those here playing the exact same role?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The part I did not understand was the second part
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If not, which I assume you would not, then why thank those here playing the exact same role?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I asked for examples and received none so I cannot answer.

In response to....
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Given that most "teachers" in the US are employed by the government, and undertake tasks other than education, I would take issue with the claim that "they" are people who are taking on an important, necessary, or difficult task.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I posted...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
At my school they have playground duty... they have to watch the halls and do some discipinary activities occasionally. They attend PTA meetigns and occasionally have a pizza party or something as a class reward. I am trying to think of what tasks I see them undertake that are not educational. Guess I need an example or two.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
from you
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You claim that you do not see the propagandizing of government in the government schools. What of the voting rhetoric? What of the approval list of "Acceptable" books? Have you ever opened an accepted history text in government schools?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Are these the examples? That they have "acceptable book lists" I thought you said you taught for a while. You think non-public schools do not have acceptable book lists? Yea I have opened histroy books both in and out of school. Yea they all give a view of history. Yea some vary. Sorry but where is the propaganda? Are you a revisionist. That is a whole different thread.

I asked what you do...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I have been an instructor in one of the nations largest universities, so I have walked a mile in those shoes.. Currently I do in fact help others but quite frankly my profession is irrelevent. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Why am I not surprised? It is alwyas hard for armchair critics to defend.

For someone who becomes irate when thier queries are not responded to, you sure can ignore someone elses.

The sarcasm I mentioned in my earlier post was not regarding any of your posts. You are much to aggressive for anything as subtle as sarcasm. I was reffering to a post of my own that was totaly done in a sarcastic tone (deliberately). When I said "all sarcasm aside..." I meant my comming post would be in a more serious vein than my previous.

Since it appears to me that you think most things I post MUST relate to you and what you have said, and it evidently angers you that I am not just dazzled into submission by your stunning and irrefutbable logic. Why have you only
responded to my direct response to your questions? Why have you not addressed any of the things I have stated are my concerns?

Who are these wise citizens that are going to help with the millions you displace???
What do you want to do for the children without access to adults that are willing and able to teach???
When are you going to do this???
Where is your alternative plan????
Why not respond to the harm in constatnly telling person or profession that they are worthless so often that the prophesy self fulfills?

As I suspected we are so far apart in our beliefs that we view reality differently.

Dont bother to answer. I hope the remaining quotes help you to understand why I plan to skim any of your responses with the same lack of care you seem to have skimmed mine.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I do no hold onto positions for nonsensical reasons such as emotion or false pride.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
No sir you are no crusader. You are an armchar complainer. Destructive rehtoric and the old "well anything is better than that" argument when pressed.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Drug dealers and pimps are more honest<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
It is the destruction of this system that would bring joy to anyone who loves knowledge, education, children, and peace.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If firemen failed as miserably as government "teachers" routinely do, then they too would be criticized for failing to meet basic minimal standards, in other words they would be "bashed" as you call it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I like this one....
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If you do not like the criticisms of the failings of the government "teachers" then change the system, change those individuals so that the failings which are being noted and criticized are no longer there.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
NO SIR!!!!! YOU CHANGE IT!!!! You are the one with the big axe to grind. I will continue trying to improve it realistically and support progress toward better ideas.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
One of the problems of the government controlled and mandated "education" is that parents are not allowed alternatives, such as allowing grandparents, neighbors, retired professional instructors, etc to teach their children.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
What have you been reading (smoking?)? The schools I work in actually help organize grandparents, neighbors, retired professional instructors etc. to teach children. There are programs in place in Public Schools to support this kind of thing. In your state do they really not allow these people to teach children? If so it is not due to any fedreal prohibition.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
When was the last time you saw a reasonable presentation of any situation in which the US government was involved?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I assume you NEVER have.... ever.... hmmm well this one last time I will respond to you....
The response following 911 was reasonable and efficient. I was in Arizona during the fires last summer and the government handeling of the situation was great. I have lived through a few floods on the Mississippi and have always been impressed with the government's aid and response. I thought they handled WWII and Korea pretty well. I think the police departments to a damned fine job considering the enormity of their task for the size of their force. I think our military is a fine presentaion of success (not condoning the wars, just the reasonable presetation of ability).

OK I have now walked a mile in these shoes and have attended to and responded to your posts WAY more than you have to mine. Don't bear the light for me anymore please. I have my own thanks.

M5

Feb 15, 2004, 10:50 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Lightberer.....
You don't think my responses were reasonable? I am not surprised. I respoded out of courtesy trying to answer your questions as honestly as I could.

My suspicions were that even if I gave answers you liked you would have stayed up till the wee hours thinking about sone way to claim that I sidestepped your "obvious and simple" questions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Nice strawman followed by ad hominem. I do not consider personal attacks, implied insults and the like to be reasonable responses, and no reasonable person would. That you choose to pretend that I was commenting on all of your responses, and then pretend that you are omniscient and in your omniscience know that my character is necessarily dishonest, is of course itself insulting, arrogant, and intellectually dishonest.

Why rely on these tactics when honest and straight-forward discussion will suffice?

You asked for examples and I presented a few.. another poster here managed to read them and comment on them, so I am certain that the words are appearing on the screen. However, to easily refute your claims again, look to any approved history text. Turn to the sections on the Civil War, and note that the winners are writing the books.. any mention of the fact that succession was not only allowed by the original union of the colonies, it was the ultimate statement of states rights and the freedom which was supposed to be protected by a minimal federal government. Is there even any mention of state's rights in this history text? Of coruse not.

So there you have yet another example. Please do not pretend that it does not appear on your screen, disappearing into the ether with the others..

I have to laugh that YOU imply that *I* am a revisionist. I am actually taking issue with the revisionist histories, the pro-state rhetoric, and the misleading characterizations, and you employ another weak ad hominem implication in an attempt to divert attention from the failings of your own positions? How is it inconceivable to you that those controlling the "information" fed to children would adapt that information to their own ends?

BTW Did you even notice that you claim that I did not answer the question about propaganda in schools, then you quote part of the answer I gave... hard to defend your own criticism when you yourself provide the evidence clearly refuting your claim.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Since it appears to me that you think most things I post MUST relate to you and what you have said, and it evidently angers you that I am not just dazzled into submission by your stunning and irrefutbable logic. Why have you only
responded to my direct response to your questions? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Be ware of your own delusions of grandeur. Contrary to what is necessitated in your assumptions, you are not in fact omniscient, nor are you even remotely close in your characterizations of me used as red herrings and ad hominems. I commented on a post of yours, which appeared to be trying to address some of the issues I raised. You later clarified that you had not yet responded to those issues, and I took your comments at face value.

Why assume negative emotion when your claims are refuted? I have responded to your responses because this is the nature of a discussion. I would personally take it quite well if you would chose to address the issues I have raised and answer the questions asked of you.

Addressing your red herring yet again, what does my current profession have to do with the state of affairs in government schools? And how does having taught in a government university make me an arm chair critic? Keep in mind that no answer you give will have any bearing on the discussion of the nature of government schools BECAUSE YOUR QUERY AS TO MY PROFESSION IS NAUGHT BUT A RED HERRING.

I have answered your questions already, despite your pretense to the contrary. I have given several examples of those able and willing to teach children. I deny your unfounded assumption that there are children who have no access to any adult capable of teaching them anything. The notion is quite simply absurd. Such children do not exist, unless of course they are being raised by wolves. Or perhaps I am just able to see the worth in those who are poor, or in undesirable situations.

As to when, I would stop the abuse of children immediately. I would cease the coercion of adults immediately. I would stop the leviathan today, were it up to me.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Why not respond to the harm in constatnly telling person or profession that they are worthless so often that the prophesy self fulfills?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy of begging the question? If not you should familiarize yourself with it, and why it is a fallacy. The above is a wonderful example of begging the question.

And for what it is worth, I have already pointed out that your characterization of teachers as victims is not only false, but absurd. So given that the antecedent of your conditional is false, nothing follows.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
NO SIR!!!!! YOU CHANGE IT!!!! You are the one with the big axe to grind. I will continue trying to improve it realistically and support progress toward better ideas.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I have no ax to grind, rather I have refuted your misconceptions, mischaracterizations, and logically flawed arguments. Nothing more. You may want to consider that one must be willing to recognize reality, understand truth, and know what it means to move forward to accomplish these goals you have set for yourself. Thus far you have emgaged in ad hominem attacks, false premises, and logical fallacies to reach your conclusions. So taking these small samples and extrapolating, it seems highly unlikely that you can achieve the goals you state, or even work towards them.

Your pretense that the feds do not mandate what they recognize as formal schooling is unconvincing, and certainly fails to refute the points and arguments I made.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
When was the last time you saw a reasonable presentation of any situation in which the US government was involved?

I assume you NEVER have.... ever.... hmmm well this one last time I will respond to you....
The response following 911 was reasonable and efficient. I was in Arizona during the fires last summer and the government handeling of the situation was great. I have lived through a few floods on the Mississippi and have always been impressed with the government's aid and response. I thought they handled WWII and Korea pretty well. I think the police departments to a damned fine job considering the enormity of their task for the size of their force. I think our military is a fine presentaion of success (not condoning the wars, just the reasonable presetation of ability).
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Did you chose to ignore the fact that we were discussing schools? Did you also choose to ignore the fact that I spoke specifically of PRESENTATIONS? btw your assumption belies a false dichotomy, another logical fallacy.

Your above claims are absurd. I must admit that I personally do not revel in the taking of innocent life, nor can I find it joyful or something to herald or even to find acceptable. Any who can do so show their character for the world to see and mourn.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
OK I have now walked a mile in these shoes and have attended to and responded to your posts WAY more than you have to mine. Don't bear the light for me anymore please. I have my own thanks.

M5<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Is honesty too much to request? You have left many questions unanswered, many refutations ignored, and most issues raised to the side. Unlike you, I have answered all of your questions, addressed the issues, and refuted the claims and arguments offered. I have not employed ad hominem attacks, insults, mischaracterizations, or other deceptive or irrational behaviors.

Calling darkness light, falseness truth, and emotion reason are all wonderful examples of Orwellian newspeak.. works well in the government schools, is that where you learned it? :)

The Black Flag · Feb 16, 2004, 12:09 am

What the fuck happened to this topic? It was interesting, then i saw a bunch of words about how someone is an asshole, but put in big words and long sentences. Everyone I've seen here are quite intelligent...EVERYONE. I may not agree with some, but even they are intelligent. Just wanted to say that. Now quit bickering. I'm gonna go listen to Dope.

Leopard · Feb 16, 2004, 01:44 am

Too bad this discussion degenerated into such an abyss...

m5lange1,
first off, on this particular subject, I am on the side opposite of you, BUT, I do not agree with the tone and language used by Lightbearer in the posts you two trade...

re: wanting to see a 'viable' alternative in place before abolishing our public education system
some questions:
(1) Why do you support the idea of having government involved with education at all? Perhaps more wide: What do you define as legitimate roles for government in total?
(2) You asked about 'the poor (income) children who couldn't afford private schooling, that would they then be put out into the streets to run amuck... don't we already see that happening today?

ok, 'viable alternative':
first, some assumptions - I have seen a variety of figures on the cost to the average taxpayer of educating a child for one year (K-12). This figure ranges from $8k - $11k. Private education ranges from $4k - $16k. So, by eliminating the school taxation, parents would have the money to choose some sort of alternative right off the bat. In addition, in the 'vacuum' left behind of public education, hundreds of competing educational institutions would materialize - I say 'materialize' not like magic, but simply because parents have a GREAT demand for educating their children AND there are plenty of entepeneurs who would immediately create businesses to cater to this new market. this great rush would also serve to keep costs down AND provide the best possible service (yes, education is a 'service' not a 'right' - it is not necessary for survival and comes in a variety of forms). Teachers are performing a 'service' for the parents(consumers). Add to this another alternative to poor parents: educational loans.

By eliminating public education (and the related taxes), people would have more money to donate to educational charities and the like which would help to allow the poorest of folks an education- IF they desired - one CANNOT educate someone who does not want to be... which brings us to another point:
You seem to tout the 'principled' act of public education forcing every child off of the streets, and that in private schools the unruly are rejected or thrown out which is 'bad' - what is worse? Having children who absolutely do not desire to be educated be forced into a classroom with other children who do, thus disrupting the class and demanding a disproportionate amount of teacher attention, OR, let them find out some of lifes hard lessons outside of school - lessons which can be learned by others outside of the situation (ie: ok, one disruptive student gets booted out, has to go into the work force, does not have enough education to qualify for the better paying jobs, etc - other students/parents see this and have a greater incentive to learn/teach: life may be a cruel teacher, but it is the BEST teacher also). So the 'public' way is to force disruptive students next to non-disruptive - at the expense of the 'good' student....

so, without 'public' education, how would the market for education look? here is a view: a variety of private 'schools' (religious, secular, whatever), an abundance of vocational schools (perhaps funded in part by local businesses - they have a stake in education also - as well as the parents), 'company' schools - a version of vocational but perhaps more specialized in whatever a particular company required, homeschooling, neighborhood schooling (a extended version of homeschooling where there is enough demand in a neighborhood for them to combine efforts and hire private teachers and/or trade duties in homeschooling all the kids in a neighborhood, apprentiships, etc.

What would result? a more sophisticated populace, where education (or lack thereof) is allowed to be valued on the market as it should be - people having to face the consequences for their actions, take personal responsibility for choices they make and have no one else but themselves to blame (...or congratulate), a highly flexible educational market which is able to adjust to the changes in the job marketplace as well as reflect whatever morals of the society exist at the time.

Although in advocating the abolishment of public schools, my main desire is to increase personal responsibility and freedom - there are some very utilitarian side-effects: this single step would catapult us back on top as having the most most educated and productive population and the results would be echoed throughout our industries and our general welfare and wealth.

(BTW: I am not a teacher either - my experience in education is minor: I have been assistant teacher for an at-risk class (high school), and my former wife is a 4th-6th grade teacher)

michael

Feb 16, 2004, 08:54 am

Leopard,

What is so bothersome about civility, honesty, and sound arguments? Or were you bothered by my calling M5 on the use of personal attacks and logical fallacies?

I asked questions, then asked again for answers when those questions were not addressed. I clarified clear mischaracterizations and cited the peronsal attacks, and somehow you find this to be bothersome? Are you implying that it is preferrable to follow the path m5 has chosen, that of false assumptions, logical fallacies, and personal attacks?

I actually agree that it is a shame that the topic and issues raised have been ignored in favor of garden paths, red herrings, and personal attacks.

LB

m5lange1 · Feb 16, 2004, 10:11 am

Hooray Leopard...

Intelligent discourse. Lets talk.

I know I am so wordy that my main points tend to get burried. (sigh) I will try to be more precise.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
(1) Why do you support the idea of having government involved with education at all? Perhaps more wide: What do you define as legitimate roles for government in total?
(2) You asked about 'the poor (income) children who couldn't afford private schooling, that would they then be put out into the streets to run amuck... don't we already see that happening today?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

1. I don't necessarily support government involvment. I am only defending it because the government is the main source of education at the moment. My point is WHATEVER system is doing the job is actually harmed by constant non-constructive rehtoric. I have no problem with the government getting its nose out of education but I do not think we can do it all at once. I do not think voters are going to buy it right away. So I think it has to be phased out, not abolished. And it needs some support during transition.

2. The poverty culture: Yes it is happening today. I believe if you left it up to many of those parents it would happen to a much greater degree. But my concern really is not that they are out running around. They are in the summer anyway. My concern is their education.

Great job on the viable alternatives Leopard. When they are ready to go in place (politically as well as economically) I am on your side. All I am saying is, demoralizing those who are working in the current system is making things worse.

My points are really just twofold.
Point 1.
I think most critics of PS are seriously underestimating the difficulty of educating the poverty culture. PS is all that is required to deal with the entire mass now.
If/when the government system is gone, there are going to be some very sruprised critics out there. (barring those who will just continue to criticize and naturally have all the answers as to why the new system is also failing).
You are probably right Leopard, there are probably some who don't want to be educated so they won't be but there are millions out there who don't want to be educated but can be motivated. I see it happen a lot. Yes even in the government schools.
I probably cannot convince those of you who just do not believe that there are kids out there without access to adults who can teach them. I cannot help but believe you have been pretty sheltered in your involvement with the hard core poverty culture areas.
For those of you who may post that you, indeed, have that experience tell me who would be the home educator for the preshcooler we had to teach not to drink out of toilets because he had been left alone so opften that that is where he had to get his water? What about the parents that threaten anyone who comes to their home? Who are they going to go out and encourage to come teach their children? I really care about these children and want to see them educated.
You are right... The PS system is doing a pretty crappy job of it but they are doing a job. And they are reaching and teaching many.

Point 2.
Demoralizing the current workers is adding to the problem. I know many of you have said you are criticizing the system. I have much less concern about that than demoralizing the teachers. In spite of Lightbearer's claim that the criticism is "Mild...In some small way..." after which he says PS teachers are less respectable than pimps and drug dealers and that they are dishonest, all anyone has to do is listen to the media and read the paper so see teacher bashing. "They are lazy" (no one who has taught in K-12 can possibly believe that). "They are just there to collect a paycheck" Right, it is such a big one.
"They sit on their butts all summer" Lots of them work summers to make ends meet. "They are not accountable" That one is the one that is the most rediculous. "They cannot get rid of them once tenure is earned" BIG myth, it just requires the same sort of justification that most union contracts require. The union does more to keep a teahcer employed than tenure. (By the way unions tend to be present in private enterprises as well as in government enterprises). The biggest reason it is difficult to fire a teacher now is that there is a HUGE teacher shortage. Do you really wonder why?
As I posted above it is not me personally because I am accountable as a clinnician. Not a teacher. No one seems to bash us. I would probably not be so vehement in my own defence.
I have seen the deterioration of the morale of PS teachers. MANY many of them are actually becomming what people accuse them of being because they are getting the "Why bother" attitude.

Recap for the skimmers....
1. While I am very open to alternatives to government schools, I believe most people are drastically underestimating the poverty culture's effect on alternative school plans. I still want to see those children receive an education.
This population is particulary left out of the home school model since many parents are unwilling/unable to teach their children nor will many of them seek any help from neighbors, volunteers or fellow gang members.

2. Demoralizing the teachers is adding to the problem. Yes alternitives such as privatization are option but it is not there, at least not yet. In the meantime I believe we have to support (or at least not ridicule) the people who are trying to do the job.
Particularyly in the area of private or charter shcools, this same population of teachers is likely to be what is hired by the private/charter shcools to teach the millions released to their care.
If not what carrot is going to be out there to attract new and better teachers?

Anniee · Feb 16, 2004, 10:45 am

I am beginning to wonder if you're deliberately skewing the points made or simply not comprehending them at all. You're still applying the SAME MODEL when people are explaining (sometimes painstakingly) that they're talking about getting rid of the actual model. Please try to grasp what I mean by "model" before attempting to reply to that, because so far it hasn't even registered or, and I hope this isn't the case, it's simply being ignored on purpose.

You speak of serious neglect (toddler left alone so often he drank out of toilets) which is a criminal issue (and toddlers don't go to school) so I don't know where that came from. There are and should be penalties for abuse, don't you think? Bringing up uncommon and extreme instances is sort of unfair, we could all do that. I brought up widespread systemic issues in my last post, and I've noticed you haven't mentioned them (despite wanting examples of "indoctrination," which is after all where some of this began.)

You keep saying that this "nonconstructive" criticism and "bashing" is the REASON schools are failing, and frankly that's really been torn to shreds already by a heck of a lot of unrefuted proofs that have been offered to you. They weren't designed to succeed at some things, and in fact are not. Unsurprisingly. You've offered not a single substantive thing (that I've seen) to back up the position that it's those who point out that mandatory government schooling is a bad idea ARE IN FACT THE CAUSE of its failure. Your only evidence is that you see teachers get depressed and discouraged by it, and give up. Frankly that doesn't have squat to do with ANY of the actual problems, much less the ones that have been brought to light. By the way, teachers make a lot more money per year than my family of four has lived on with our one income for over a decade; and we don't have benefits; AND most of them have more than one income per family. Only recently have we possibly surpassed them (and I'm not even sure, as the last figures I saw were 6 years old.) Singing the blues on that one and daring to call people "sheltered" was not cool whatsoever. I should be so sheltered as someone who makes at least $40K in 9.5 months WITH benefits (as of '97.)

In any case it's all a moot point because this bureaucracy is going NOWHERE and all the crying in the world over any criticism of the system and how we're destroying it by our criticism isn't going to MAKE it go anywhere. I'd agree, I think, to a raise in teacher salaries if they'd agree to stop advocating against homeschoolers. You want to talk persecution, start looking at the people who REALLY get it. It ain't the government employees. Now this is just getting obnoxious.

m5lange1 · Feb 16, 2004, 10:52 am

HAHAHAHA

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
What is so bothersome about civility<hr size="1" /></blockquote>, ......

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Please do not pretend that it does not appear on your screen, disappearing into the ether with the others.. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
It is the destruction of this system that would bring joy to anyone who loves knowledge, education, children, and peace.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Be ware of your own delusions of grandeur.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Calling darkness light, falseness truth, and emotion reason are all wonderful examples of Orwellian newspeak.. works well in the government schools, is that where you learned it?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
honesty, <hr size="1" /></blockquote>..........

Disclaimer... I am not sure the following quotes are dishonest, so I am not calling anyone a liar. They may be a result of irrationality.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Is honesty too much to request? You have left many questions unanswered, many refutations ignored, and most issues raised to the side. Unlike you, I have answered all of your questions, addressed the issues, and refuted the claims and arguments offered. I have not employed ad hominem attacks, insults, mischaracterizations, or other deceptive or irrational behaviors. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
And for what it is worth, I have already pointed out that your characterization of teachers as victims is not only false, but absurd.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
(see above quotes)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
and sound arguments?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
When was the last time you saw a reasonable presentation of any situation in which the US government was involved?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I deny your unfounded assumption that there are children who have no access to any adult capable of teaching them anything. The notion is quite simply absurd. Such children do not exist, unless of course they are being raised by wolves.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Man Against Time · Feb 16, 2004, 11:00 am

This may have been answered in the last 4 pages, which are way too long to begin reading now, but, what concept about American education is so flawed that 22 people do not approve of it?

I disapprove of the idea that education is meant for everyone. If it were up to me, 15% or so of the population would have any schooling at all, unless you count vocational training. I think the first 18 years of an American's life are completely wasted in making him something he is not. There really is no use for what you learn in school for most people.

Add to that the fact that rudimentary education is what inspires the ignorant crowds to think their opinion matters, and their own TV-guided whims are enlightened and supported and everyone has an obligation to respect them.

Something tells me that no one else agrees with this essentially medieval or ancient perspective. So why did 21 other people say the entire concept is flawed? The concept is, "People who will grow up to vote need an education."
My problem is with the entire justification for even having elections.

m5lange1 · Feb 16, 2004, 11:31 am

Sheesh I respod to one and another pops up...
Yea I am defending the unpopular. It is getting kind of old to me too but hey? We are here to debate issues.

Anniee,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I am beginning to wonder if you're deliberately skewing the points made or simply not comprehending them at all. You're still applying the SAME MODEL when people are explaining (sometimes painstakingly) that they're talking about getting rid of the actual model. Please try to grasp what I mean by "model" before attempting to reply to that, because so far it hasn't even registered or, and I hope this isn't the case, it's simply being ignored on purpose.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You may be right. I may have a misconception of what you mean by model. I assume you are talking about what you believe is an indoctronation model that is used by PS to teach children. I assume your criticism holds for the private schools and charter schools as well because if you mean methodology, textbooks and carriculums they are not much different from private to PS to charter. I have worked in two Private schools and had to review Charter school carriculums during school improvement exercises.

If I am wrong about what you mean bu model, enlighten me so that I may better address what you are saying.

If I am correct just understand that I am unconvinced (regardless of the origins of public schools) that our current PS system has alterior motives to education.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You speak of serious neglect (toddler left alone so often he drank out of toilets) which is a criminal issue (and toddlers don't go to school) so I don't know where that came from. There are and should be penalties for abuse, don't you think? Bringing up uncommon and extreme instances is sort of unfair, we could all do that. I brought up widespread systemic issues in my last post, and I've noticed you haven't mentioned them (despite wanting examples of "indoctrination," which is after all where some of this began.) <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

First of all I said preschooler -not toddler-. Most people would not consider a 4 year old a toddler. Yes this student was seen as part of government education (enrollment in Head Start).

Yes it was abuse and it was reported since all Head Start personnel, as well as PS teachers, are mandated reporters. Glad we caught it. At least we managed to help that child a bit by getting him out of that home. True he would eventually gotten tall enough to reach the sink without us but I still think we helped.

All that aside you are correct that it is unfair to use atrocity stories and try to apply them across the board. I certainly hear about atrocities in public schools that would NEVER be tolerated in any where I work but are presented as if it is the norm.

I stand corrected.

It is a method I stooped to because I just cannot believe that so many of you have no idea how irresponsible SOME of this population is. That even if help was made available to them, regardless of the model, they would not seek it out.

As a special educator I am not able to serve a child until I receive written permission form the parents. It can take months just to get a signature to address the disablity. They peek out of curtains and do not answer the door.... sorry there I go again.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You keep saying that this "nonconstructive" criticism and "bashing" is the REASON schools are failing,<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

That is a mistake on your part. Check my posts I never said it was the REASON. It is not even close to the REASON. What I have said and what I believe is that it is a contributing factor. The REASONS go much deeper. You appear to put all the blame on the "model". I see a lot of reasons including (what I believe you mean as) the model.

You seem to think I am ignoring what is said to me by others on this post and I do not know why. I have read the posts and feel I have responded to most of them. I remain unconvinced and maybe that is why you believe I am twisting or whatever.

I also think I am not being read very carefully (and perhaps being unintentionally twisted) when you post that I said bashing is the REASON (even go so far as to capitolize it) for a failing system, which I nver did. Only said that it was a contributing facror (and the most easliy corrected since it can be done with common curtosy and no cost)...
Or when..
you take my example of a preschooler and imply that I said toddler and then point out that they dont go to school. You seemed to read preschooler as toddler and be forgetful of (or unaware of) Head Start, Children at risk, The Pre-K program or other government based preschool programs. Before you misunderstand I am not trying to start a fight over whether they are effective or not only pointing out that they exist and that is why preschoolers can end up in school.
Why jump to those false conclusions?

I understand you hate the system... or model the system uses... OK. I concede that point.

My frustration comes.... once again.....
In that I have still not seen any realistic plan for my poverty culture children.
I still am convinced that demoraliztion of the work force ADDS TO (not causes) the problem.

I don't think I can be any clearer.

Feb 16, 2004, 02:54 pm

Annie,

You are obviously correct in your noting that replacing the current system with another nearly identical system simply avoids the points that have been repeatedly made, and repeatedly ignored or misconstrued.

The idea that one size fits all, that there is not only a need but a right to force others to abide by the presumed omniscience of some arbitrary few is itself erroreous such that no matter how we apply it, it will remain erroneous.

This is in part what I was trying to get to with the thought experiment I put forth that was unfortunately twisted way out of the possibility for recognition. I was hoping that in showing the double standards, the hypocrisy, that a light bulb would go on, and actual alternatives would then be considered.

m5,

Is there any purpose to continuing the mischaracterizations and personal attacks? Or are you willing to put that behavior aside so that we may discuss the issue?

Let us step back to some of your assumptions you use as premises:

1. Teachers and the government schools are personally attacked groundlessly.
Do you have any evidence which supports this set of assumptions, which run counter to that which is observable and verifiable?

2. That a single regulated schema is necessary and desirable.
Again, what are your reasons for this assumption?

3. That you are defending the unpopular (government schools)?
Again, the same question: can you substantiate this claim that defending the status quo is somehow unpopular.

LB

Feb 16, 2004, 05:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You yourself generalized teachers as dishonest.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

False, blatantly so. I never so much as hinted that teachers are dishonest.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You yourself stated that they were less respectable than drug dealers or pimps.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Again this is false, but at least this time there is something remotely similar which was simply mischaracterized. In response to your own comparison to drug dealers and pimps, I noted that the GROUP of GOVERNMENT "teachers" did not acknowledge their actions and the consequences of them, unlike drug dealers and pimps. So you got the group mischaracterized as well as the actual descriptions.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You did not directly call teachers lazy but It is a common accusation. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is question begging. Where is the EVIDENCE? Simply restating your groundless claims does not give them any support.

All of which is naught but a clear red herring avoiding the very simple straight forward question asked: upon what do you base your unfounded assertion that teachers are unjustly and overwhelmingly criticized.

Even if I had taken the positions you falsely attribute to me, even if I or anyone held the beliefs you attribute to me, you would at best be offering ONE example as "proof" of your universal claims. Surely you know that one instance does not a universal make.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
This is one of the resons I do not believe people are reading what I say. I do NOT think a single regulated schema is necessary, only that it is what is in place. I have said time and time again I DO NOT CARE FOR THE SYSTEM EITHER but I do not think it is as poisonous as you do. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

That you have not acknowledged any of the alternatives, that you insist that some specific SYSTEM be offered to replace the current one, both belie your claim. Also that you demand that those who are noting the objective facts bear the burden of proof for any and all alternatives to the failed government run institutions lends even more evidence to the position you are denying you hold.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
That does not make me unreasonable or illogical. It means we disagree. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I have not said otherwise. However that you employ logical fallacies, unfounded and baseless assumptions, as well as personal attacks all stand as clear and objective evidence to that end.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
These points I concede but somehow you keep missing that just because I do not blieve the current system is of evil intent.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You have no evidence for this claim either. I have used the tools of reason to dmeonstrate that many of your assumptions are false and baseless, that your arguments are fatally flawed by logical fallacies, and that your personal attacks on myself have no bearing on the issues at all. No where have I missed your statements, quite the contrary as I relied explicitly upon them to make these very points. You ought not attribute mental states to others for which you have no evidence.

The question to which you offered these red herrings as responses was, and remains: 2. That a single regulated schema is necessary and desirable.
Again, what are your reasons for this assumption?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Sorry for the repetition here but it seems this is not getting through. I am only defending government schools because they are what is in place IN THE INTERUM to a better way. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Perhaps you believe this to be true, but your words tell a different story. You have denied all alternatives, as well as insisted on a complete governed system to replace the currect failed system. By removing all alternatives, you are de facto supporting the status quo. However the question asked for evidence supporting the claim that you are defending the unpopular.

m5lange1 · Feb 16, 2004, 08:47 pm

In fairness to Lightbearer he is not referring to a false topic. I did indeed go back and delete a post I made at 3:47 PM Feb. 16th 2004.

All of the quotes he attributes to me are accurate.

I posted it originally in response to LBs request to set aside animosity and try for civil discourse. I felt I did in that post. Then I read the rude, condecending, 'how can you dare to defy my brilliant logic' tone of his response and decided that my approach will not matter. The hand of civility was streached one way.

I put out a hand and had it spit in. Don't you wish you could take that back in real life? Well here you can. I took back my civility. If that makes me look like I am running away.. so be it. Who's respect am I trying to earn here? LB's? haha.

There is just one thing I cannot avoid commenting on.

In response to LB's request for response:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
1. Teachers and the government schools are personally attacked groundlessly.
Do you have any evidence which supports this set of assumptions, which run counter to that which is observable and verifiable?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I posted the folloing as quoted by LB above:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You yourself generalized teachers as dishonest.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

LB's response:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
False, blatantly so. I never so much as hinted that teachers are dishonest. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Original quote I was referring to:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Drug dealers and pimps are more honest,<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Maybe that is ... how did he put it?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
mischaracterized<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

but considering those are LBs exact words I cannot help thinking that he had indeed "...so much as hinted that teachers are dishonest."

Anyway beyond that I forgo all my rights of rebuttal. Since I deleted my post
that is the price I shall pay. It is getting tireing being insulted for haveing the audacity to disagree with LB anyway.

I still have strong feelings on this subject and if anyone would like to respond reasoably to the following I would still welcome discourse.
(I promise you will not have to gag through any more crap between me and LB. Maybe from his end but not mine.)

1. If you would abolish government schools what would you see in its place. Not suggesting a system just tell me what you would seee as education for our children? Please state these in positives without bashing any other method.

2. How abruptly would you make the change? Would you have a transition plan or would you just close the schools and see what happened? In this instance could you please address the culture shock. Even though home schooling had a millinia of success it was not dropped all at once on a culture who has been dependent on an alternative for generations.

3. Since we all know this is not going to happen this year why are you so opposed to my suggestion of respect, or at least courtesy, for your fellow citizens who are working with what we have?

4. Remembering that I do NOT think that demoralization is a complete REASON for anything, do you truly not beleive demoralization can affect performance? If you believe it can It just seems like a simple, costless, very easy way to help just a little. If not.. why not?

Thanks for your time.

Feb 16, 2004, 09:25 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
It is getting tireing being insulted for haveing the audacity to disagree with LB anyway.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I have asked in the past for honesty and I would ask for it again. I have not insulted you. I have not spit in your hand as you pretend. I have not insisted that you be impressed by anything. I have asked for but the minimum basic characteristics of an honest civil intellectual discourse. When you have made personal attacks, false accusations, mischaracterizations and the like I have quite simply refuted them. When you have failed to answer the questions asked, I have asked the questions again. When you have offered red herrings, ad hominems, and other logical fallacies in place of a reasoned response I have noted them. None of these behaviors on my own part are insulting, offensive, or even of any real note given that they are the norm in any honest civil intellectual discussion. That you have taken offense to the very idea that your claims can be questioned, that you would be asked for some small degree of evidence to support your claims demonstrates at least an unfamiliarity with intellectual discussions, else an antagonistic attitude towards the same.

However, yet again please allow me to give you every possible opportunity to demonstrate that your claims are true: cite these insults you claim exist, and are consistently offered? Without evidence, without connection to reality, such claims are naught but ad homimen attacks and red herrings.

For the record I have been civil to you at all times. You cannot simply stipulate that no one can offer clear and sound refutations of your claims and arguments, else they face the accusation of incivility.

As for your cut and paste job, I would ask that you accurately represent the facts by actually taking the ENTIRE statement rather than editing it to suit your desired claim. However even with your editing, it fails to support your claim. You still have no instance of my claiming that all teachers, or even all government "teachers" are dishonest.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
1. If you would abolish government schools what would you see in its place. Not suggesting a system just tell me what you would seee as education for our children? Please state these in positives without bashing any other method.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Since you have demonstrated that ANY criticism, ANY objective observation of government schools, will be labeled "bashing" your criterion here is far from intellectually honest. It is akin to telling another to prove their position without ever accounting for all of the failures of other possibilities.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Would you have a transition plan or would you just close the schools and see what happened?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Again, this necessitates some degree of omniscience as well as a single system. Furthermore it is a false dichotomy.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
3. Since we all know this is not going to happen this year why are you so opposed to my suggestion of respect, or at least courtesy, for your fellow citizens who are working with what we have? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

False premise. NO ONE has said that courtesy ought not be given, nor basic respect for persons. All that has been offered is objective criticism, noting of the easily observed failures which NEED addressing, and yet you call any and all such simple facts by the label of "bashing."

But please, prove me wrong: cite what you would allow along the lines of objective facts and criticism of the failed existing system.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
. Remembering that I do NOT think that demoralization is a complete REASON for anything, do you truly not beleive demoralization can affect performance? If you believe it can It just seems like a simple, costless, very easy way to help just a little. If not.. why not?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Again you start with a false assumption. You have repeatedly been asked to provide evidence of this victim status of teachers and thus far nothing has been offered to this end. Also should you not take into account that honest failure is far more demoralizing than unrecognized success? Why not simply accept that these failure in fact exist, and that they will not disappear by ignoring them or refusing to allow others to recognize them?

It is worth mentioning that this is not a battle of personalities. It never matters who makes the sound argument, who offers the facts, who notes the false assumptions or flawed arguments. It appears that you have taken all of this personally, especially given that you claim to be insulted by the mere act of asking for evidence, or by the act of refuting a poorly developed position or argument. But so what? The one who will help you most is the one who points out the weaknesses in your position and your arguments, for it is from this individual that you will learn. Those who simply blindly agree with you teach you nothing and only help blind you to the flaws in the position or argument.

Leopard · Feb 17, 2004, 01:00 am

okie dokie, I think I see some way to whittle this down a bit...
lets take your questions first (yes, Lightbearer, I understand the fallacies contained within, but I think I can read the intent of his words and perhaps move on in discourse rather than repeatedly sticking my finger in his eye (although you are quite 'correct' in your posts) pointing out any swaying from the purely logical path...)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
1. If you would abolish government schools what would you see in its place. Not suggesting a system just tell me what you would seee as education for our children? Please state these in positives without bashing any other method.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
First, please understand that I take the view that 'simply living' is actually an education: we learn a bit everyday about how to relate to others, what constitutes reality and fantasy, we learn from mistakes made and correct assumptions undertaken... life IS an education and I think that is pretty undeniable. What I will 'infer' here is that you mean 'formal' education. Since 'formal' education is a relatively new phenonemon<sp?> and it is not necessary in order to insure ones survival, then it HAS to be an optional endeavor. The degree and pattern of education each person desires, or desires for their children is exceedingly subjective and personal and a private affair. It infringes on no right of mine if my neighbor sees fit to educate their child in math, or not, in english, or not, in religion, or not. I am not advocatng some kind of romantic return to an uneducated agrarian<again..sp?> rural culture, BUT, if people CHOOSE to do so for themselves and their families, so be it - I only wish to give them back their freedom to make the choice. So, in response to your question 'what would you see as education for our children?', I say that it is simply not my place to dictate to you or others how to educate YOUR children, my children I will ensure that they can properly communicate with others through oral and written language, understand economics enough so they can maintain a household budget and understand a bit of the world around them, have at least a minimal of mathematics skills to succeed in this world of computers and numbers. these would be my minimums... my goals would be to insure that my child has a MUCH better than average chance when competing with others for a particular job, that he/she has mutliple skills and talents to draw from and to fall back on in uncertain times, and has available to them the full range of career choices that our world has to offer. I do not think that these 'goals' are necessarily 'good' or 'moral' for anyone else but myself and my children. I do think that the road to happiness can be achieved in poverty as well as in 'success' - and the definition of 'happiness' is up to each person to decide for themselves - I do not think that even with my own constant attention and perhaps badgering I could instill my own definition of 'happiness' upon my own child - that is soley reserved for their mind to discover.
(and you thought that YOU were wordy

View Poll Results: What do you think of the American education system?
a) I think it's doing a great job.	3	4.84%
b) I think it's doing an okay job.	12	19.35%
c) I think it's doing a terrible job.	14	22.58%
d) I think think the whole concept is flawed.	33	53.23%
Voters: 62. You may not vote

Feb 15, 2004, 07:10 pm	#41 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	Thanks Justin that ws refreshing. Edit: HAHA I started this one just after I read Justin's post. It in no way reflects anything posted during the time I was typing. Sorry I am so pokey. Lightberer..... You don't think my responses were reasonable? I am not surprised. I respoded out of courtesy trying to answer your questions as honestly as I could. My suspicions were that even if I gave answers you liked you would have stayed up till the wee hours thinking about sone way to claim that I sidestepped your "obvious and simple" questions. I did not answer ones that made accusations I do not understand. From your last post.... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by BTW the question avoided was: "Out of curiosity, would you thank the propagandaists of a facists, or socialist regime for "teaching" your children that one group is better or more deserving than another?"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The answer to just that is NO The part I did not understand was From your previous post where the question was originally posted </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Out of curiosity, would you thank the propagandaists of a facists, or socialist regime for "teaching" your children that one group is better or more deserving than another? If not, which I assume you would not, then why thank those here playing the exact same role?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The part I did not understand was the second part </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If not, which I assume you would not, then why thank those here playing the exact same role?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I asked for examples and received none so I cannot answer. In response to.... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Given that most "teachers" in the US are employed by the government, and undertake tasks other than education, I would take issue with the claim that "they" are people who are taking on an important, necessary, or difficult task.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I posted... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by At my school they have playground duty... they have to watch the halls and do some discipinary activities occasionally. They attend PTA meetigns and occasionally have a pizza party or something as a class reward. I am trying to think of what tasks I see them undertake that are not educational. Guess I need an example or two.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> from you </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You claim that you do not see the propagandizing of government in the government schools. What of the voting rhetoric? What of the approval list of "Acceptable" books? Have you ever opened an accepted history text in government schools?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Are these the examples? That they have "acceptable book lists" I thought you said you taught for a while. You think non-public schools do not have acceptable book lists? Yea I have opened histroy books both in and out of school. Yea they all give a view of history. Yea some vary. Sorry but where is the propaganda? Are you a revisionist. That is a whole different thread. I asked what you do... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I have been an instructor in one of the nations largest universities, so I have walked a mile in those shoes.. Currently I do in fact help others but quite frankly my profession is irrelevent. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Why am I not surprised? It is alwyas hard for armchair critics to defend. For someone who becomes irate when thier queries are not responded to, you sure can ignore someone elses. The sarcasm I mentioned in my earlier post was not regarding any of your posts. You are much to aggressive for anything as subtle as sarcasm. I was reffering to a post of my own that was totaly done in a sarcastic tone (deliberately). When I said "all sarcasm aside..." I meant my comming post would be in a more serious vein than my previous. Since it appears to me that you think most things I post MUST relate to you and what you have said, and it evidently angers you that I am not just dazzled into submission by your stunning and irrefutbable logic. Why have you only responded to my direct response to your questions? Why have you not addressed any of the things I have stated are my concerns? Who are these wise citizens that are going to help with the millions you displace??? What do you want to do for the children without access to adults that are willing and able to teach??? When are you going to do this??? Where is your alternative plan???? Why not respond to the harm in constatnly telling person or profession that they are worthless so often that the prophesy self fulfills? As I suspected we are so far apart in our beliefs that we view reality differently. Dont bother to answer. I hope the remaining quotes help you to understand why I plan to skim any of your responses with the same lack of care you seem to have skimmed mine. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I do no hold onto positions for nonsensical reasons such as emotion or false pride.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No sir you are no crusader. You are an armchar complainer. Destructive rehtoric and the old "well anything is better than that" argument when pressed. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Drug dealers and pimps are more honest<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by It is the destruction of this system that would bring joy to anyone who loves knowledge, education, children, and peace.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If firemen failed as miserably as government "teachers" routinely do, then they too would be criticized for failing to meet basic minimal standards, in other words they would be "bashed" as you call it.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I like this one.... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If you do not like the criticisms of the failings of the government "teachers" then change the system, change those individuals so that the failings which are being noted and criticized are no longer there.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> NO SIR!!!!! YOU CHANGE IT!!!! You are the one with the big axe to grind. I will continue trying to improve it realistically and support progress toward better ideas. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by One of the problems of the government controlled and mandated "education" is that parents are not allowed alternatives, such as allowing grandparents, neighbors, retired professional instructors, etc to teach their children.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> What have you been reading (smoking?)? The schools I work in actually help organize grandparents, neighbors, retired professional instructors etc. to teach children. There are programs in place in Public Schools to support this kind of thing. In your state do they really not allow these people to teach children? If so it is not due to any fedreal prohibition. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by When was the last time you saw a reasonable presentation of any situation in which the US government was involved? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I assume you NEVER have.... ever.... hmmm well this one last time I will respond to you.... The response following 911 was reasonable and efficient. I was in Arizona during the fires last summer and the government handeling of the situation was great. I have lived through a few floods on the Mississippi and have always been impressed with the government's aid and response. I thought they handled WWII and Korea pretty well. I think the police departments to a damned fine job considering the enormity of their task for the size of their force. I think our military is a fine presentaion of success (not condoning the wars, just the reasonable presetation of ability). OK I have now walked a mile in these shoes and have attended to and responded to your posts WAY more than you have to mine. Don't bear the light for me anymore please. I have my own thanks. M5 Protester against the culture war!!!!

Feb 15, 2004, 10:50 pm	#42 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Lightberer..... You don't think my responses were reasonable? I am not surprised. I respoded out of courtesy trying to answer your questions as honestly as I could. My suspicions were that even if I gave answers you liked you would have stayed up till the wee hours thinking about sone way to claim that I sidestepped your "obvious and simple" questions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Nice strawman followed by ad hominem. I do not consider personal attacks, implied insults and the like to be reasonable responses, and no reasonable person would. That you choose to pretend that I was commenting on all of your responses, and then pretend that you are omniscient and in your omniscience know that my character is necessarily dishonest, is of course itself insulting, arrogant, and intellectually dishonest. Why rely on these tactics when honest and straight-forward discussion will suffice? You asked for examples and I presented a few.. another poster here managed to read them and comment on them, so I am certain that the words are appearing on the screen. However, to easily refute your claims again, look to any approved history text. Turn to the sections on the Civil War, and note that the winners are writing the books.. any mention of the fact that succession was not only allowed by the original union of the colonies, it was the ultimate statement of states rights and the freedom which was supposed to be protected by a minimal federal government. Is there even any mention of state's rights in this history text? Of coruse not. So there you have yet another example. Please do not pretend that it does not appear on your screen, disappearing into the ether with the others.. I have to laugh that YOU imply that I am a revisionist. I am actually taking issue with the revisionist histories, the pro-state rhetoric, and the misleading characterizations, and you employ another weak ad hominem implication in an attempt to divert attention from the failings of your own positions? How is it inconceivable to you that those controlling the "information" fed to children would adapt that information to their own ends? BTW Did you even notice that you claim that I did not answer the question about propaganda in schools, then you quote part of the answer I gave... hard to defend your own criticism when you yourself provide the evidence clearly refuting your claim. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Since it appears to me that you think most things I post MUST relate to you and what you have said, and it evidently angers you that I am not just dazzled into submission by your stunning and irrefutbable logic. Why have you only responded to my direct response to your questions? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Be ware of your own delusions of grandeur. Contrary to what is necessitated in your assumptions, you are not in fact omniscient, nor are you even remotely close in your characterizations of me used as red herrings and ad hominems. I commented on a post of yours, which appeared to be trying to address some of the issues I raised. You later clarified that you had not yet responded to those issues, and I took your comments at face value. Why assume negative emotion when your claims are refuted? I have responded to your responses because this is the nature of a discussion. I would personally take it quite well if you would chose to address the issues I have raised and answer the questions asked of you. Addressing your red herring yet again, what does my current profession have to do with the state of affairs in government schools? And how does having taught in a government university make me an arm chair critic? Keep in mind that no answer you give will have any bearing on the discussion of the nature of government schools BECAUSE YOUR QUERY AS TO MY PROFESSION IS NAUGHT BUT A RED HERRING. I have answered your questions already, despite your pretense to the contrary. I have given several examples of those able and willing to teach children. I deny your unfounded assumption that there are children who have no access to any adult capable of teaching them anything. The notion is quite simply absurd. Such children do not exist, unless of course they are being raised by wolves. Or perhaps I am just able to see the worth in those who are poor, or in undesirable situations. As to when, I would stop the abuse of children immediately. I would cease the coercion of adults immediately. I would stop the leviathan today, were it up to me. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Why not respond to the harm in constatnly telling person or profession that they are worthless so often that the prophesy self fulfills? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Are you familiar with the logical fallacy of begging the question? If not you should familiarize yourself with it, and why it is a fallacy. The above is a wonderful example of begging the question. And for what it is worth, I have already pointed out that your characterization of teachers as victims is not only false, but absurd. So given that the antecedent of your conditional is false, nothing follows. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by NO SIR!!!!! YOU CHANGE IT!!!! You are the one with the big axe to grind. I will continue trying to improve it realistically and support progress toward better ideas. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have no ax to grind, rather I have refuted your misconceptions, mischaracterizations, and logically flawed arguments. Nothing more. You may want to consider that one must be willing to recognize reality, understand truth, and know what it means to move forward to accomplish these goals you have set for yourself. Thus far you have emgaged in ad hominem attacks, false premises, and logical fallacies to reach your conclusions. So taking these small samples and extrapolating, it seems highly unlikely that you can achieve the goals you state, or even work towards them. Your pretense that the feds do not mandate what they recognize as formal schooling is unconvincing, and certainly fails to refute the points and arguments I made. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by When was the last time you saw a reasonable presentation of any situation in which the US government was involved? I assume you NEVER have.... ever.... hmmm well this one last time I will respond to you.... The response following 911 was reasonable and efficient. I was in Arizona during the fires last summer and the government handeling of the situation was great. I have lived through a few floods on the Mississippi and have always been impressed with the government's aid and response. I thought they handled WWII and Korea pretty well. I think the police departments to a damned fine job considering the enormity of their task for the size of their force. I think our military is a fine presentaion of success (not condoning the wars, just the reasonable presetation of ability). <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Did you chose to ignore the fact that we were discussing schools? Did you also choose to ignore the fact that I spoke specifically of PRESENTATIONS? btw your assumption belies a false dichotomy, another logical fallacy. Your above claims are absurd. I must admit that I personally do not revel in the taking of innocent life, nor can I find it joyful or something to herald or even to find acceptable. Any who can do so show their character for the world to see and mourn. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by OK I have now walked a mile in these shoes and have attended to and responded to your posts WAY more than you have to mine. Don't bear the light for me anymore please. I have my own thanks. M5<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Is honesty too much to request? You have left many questions unanswered, many refutations ignored, and most issues raised to the side. Unlike you, I have answered all of your questions, addressed the issues, and refuted the claims and arguments offered. I have not employed ad hominem attacks, insults, mischaracterizations, or other deceptive or irrational behaviors. Calling darkness light, falseness truth, and emotion reason are all wonderful examples of Orwellian newspeak.. works well in the government schools, is that where you learned it? :)

Feb 16, 2004, 12:09 am	#43 (permalink) (top)
The Black Flag Molten Ash Location: thomaston, GA Posts: 132	What the fuck happened to this topic? It was interesting, then i saw a bunch of words about how someone is an asshole, but put in big words and long sentences. Everyone I've seen here are quite intelligent...EVERYONE. I may not agree with some, but even they are intelligent. Just wanted to say that. Now quit bickering. I'm gonna go listen to Dope. Whenever citizens are seen routinely as enemies of their own government, writers are routinely seen to be the most dangerous enemies. --E.L. Doctorow

Feb 16, 2004, 01:44 am	#44 (permalink) (top)
Leopard Propertarian Posts: 568	Too bad this discussion degenerated into such an abyss... m5lange1, first off, on this particular subject, I am on the side opposite of you, BUT, I do not agree with the tone and language used by Lightbearer in the posts you two trade... re: wanting to see a 'viable' alternative in place before abolishing our public education system some questions: (1) Why do you support the idea of having government involved with education at all? Perhaps more wide: What do you define as legitimate roles for government in total? (2) You asked about 'the poor (income) children who couldn't afford private schooling, that would they then be put out into the streets to run amuck... don't we already see that happening today? ok, 'viable alternative': first, some assumptions - I have seen a variety of figures on the cost to the average taxpayer of educating a child for one year (K-12). This figure ranges from $8k - $11k. Private education ranges from $4k - $16k. So, by eliminating the school taxation, parents would have the money to choose some sort of alternative right off the bat. In addition, in the 'vacuum' left behind of public education, hundreds of competing educational institutions would materialize - I say 'materialize' not like magic, but simply because parents have a GREAT demand for educating their children AND there are plenty of entepeneurs who would immediately create businesses to cater to this new market. this great rush would also serve to keep costs down AND provide the best possible service (yes, education is a 'service' not a 'right' - it is not necessary for survival and comes in a variety of forms). Teachers are performing a 'service' for the parents(consumers). Add to this another alternative to poor parents: educational loans. By eliminating public education (and the related taxes), people would have more money to donate to educational charities and the like which would help to allow the poorest of folks an education- IF they desired - one CANNOT educate someone who does not want to be... which brings us to another point: You seem to tout the 'principled' act of public education forcing every child off of the streets, and that in private schools the unruly are rejected or thrown out which is 'bad' - what is worse? Having children who absolutely do not desire to be educated be forced into a classroom with other children who do, thus disrupting the class and demanding a disproportionate amount of teacher attention, OR, let them find out some of lifes hard lessons outside of school - lessons which can be learned by others outside of the situation (ie: ok, one disruptive student gets booted out, has to go into the work force, does not have enough education to qualify for the better paying jobs, etc - other students/parents see this and have a greater incentive to learn/teach: life may be a cruel teacher, but it is the BEST teacher also). So the 'public' way is to force disruptive students next to non-disruptive - at the expense of the 'good' student.... so, without 'public' education, how would the market for education look? here is a view: a variety of private 'schools' (religious, secular, whatever), an abundance of vocational schools (perhaps funded in part by local businesses - they have a stake in education also - as well as the parents), 'company' schools - a version of vocational but perhaps more specialized in whatever a particular company required, homeschooling, neighborhood schooling (a extended version of homeschooling where there is enough demand in a neighborhood for them to combine efforts and hire private teachers and/or trade duties in homeschooling all the kids in a neighborhood, apprentiships, etc. What would result? a more sophisticated populace, where education (or lack thereof) is allowed to be valued on the market as it should be - people having to face the consequences for their actions, take personal responsibility for choices they make and have no one else but themselves to blame (...or congratulate), a highly flexible educational market which is able to adjust to the changes in the job marketplace as well as reflect whatever morals of the society exist at the time. Although in advocating the abolishment of public schools, my main desire is to increase personal responsibility and freedom - there are some very utilitarian side-effects: this single step would catapult us back on top as having the most most educated and productive population and the results would be echoed throughout our industries and our general welfare and wealth. (BTW: I am not a teacher either - my experience in education is minor: I have been assistant teacher for an at-risk class (high school), and my former wife is a 4th-6th grade teacher) michael Take on the responsibility to be free

Feb 16, 2004, 08:54 am	#45 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Leopard, What is so bothersome about civility, honesty, and sound arguments? Or were you bothered by my calling M5 on the use of personal attacks and logical fallacies? I asked questions, then asked again for answers when those questions were not addressed. I clarified clear mischaracterizations and cited the peronsal attacks, and somehow you find this to be bothersome? Are you implying that it is preferrable to follow the path m5 has chosen, that of false assumptions, logical fallacies, and personal attacks? I actually agree that it is a shame that the topic and issues raised have been ignored in favor of garden paths, red herrings, and personal attacks. LB

Feb 16, 2004, 10:11 am	#46 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	Hooray Leopard... Intelligent discourse. Lets talk. I know I am so wordy that my main points tend to get burried. (sigh) I will try to be more precise. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (1) Why do you support the idea of having government involved with education at all? Perhaps more wide: What do you define as legitimate roles for government in total? (2) You asked about 'the poor (income) children who couldn't afford private schooling, that would they then be put out into the streets to run amuck... don't we already see that happening today?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> 1. I don't necessarily support government involvment. I am only defending it because the government is the main source of education at the moment. My point is WHATEVER system is doing the job is actually harmed by constant non-constructive rehtoric. I have no problem with the government getting its nose out of education but I do not think we can do it all at once. I do not think voters are going to buy it right away. So I think it has to be phased out, not abolished. And it needs some support during transition. 2. The poverty culture: Yes it is happening today. I believe if you left it up to many of those parents it would happen to a much greater degree. But my concern really is not that they are out running around. They are in the summer anyway. My concern is their education. Great job on the viable alternatives Leopard. When they are ready to go in place (politically as well as economically) I am on your side. All I am saying is, demoralizing those who are working in the current system is making things worse. My points are really just twofold. Point 1. I think most critics of PS are seriously underestimating the difficulty of educating the poverty culture. PS is all that is required to deal with the entire mass now. If/when the government system is gone, there are going to be some very sruprised critics out there. (barring those who will just continue to criticize and naturally have all the answers as to why the new system is also failing). You are probably right Leopard, there are probably some who don't want to be educated so they won't be but there are millions out there who don't want to be educated but can be motivated. I see it happen a lot. Yes even in the government schools. I probably cannot convince those of you who just do not believe that there are kids out there without access to adults who can teach them. I cannot help but believe you have been pretty sheltered in your involvement with the hard core poverty culture areas. For those of you who may post that you, indeed, have that experience tell me who would be the home educator for the preshcooler we had to teach not to drink out of toilets because he had been left alone so opften that that is where he had to get his water? What about the parents that threaten anyone who comes to their home? Who are they going to go out and encourage to come teach their children? I really care about these children and want to see them educated. You are right... The PS system is doing a pretty crappy job of it but they are doing a job. And they are reaching and teaching many. Point 2. Demoralizing the current workers is adding to the problem. I know many of you have said you are criticizing the system. I have much less concern about that than demoralizing the teachers. In spite of Lightbearer's claim that the criticism is "Mild...In some small way..." after which he says PS teachers are less respectable than pimps and drug dealers and that they are dishonest, all anyone has to do is listen to the media and read the paper so see teacher bashing. "They are lazy" (no one who has taught in K-12 can possibly believe that). "They are just there to collect a paycheck" Right, it is such a big one. "They sit on their butts all summer" Lots of them work summers to make ends meet. "They are not accountable" That one is the one that is the most rediculous. "They cannot get rid of them once tenure is earned" BIG myth, it just requires the same sort of justification that most union contracts require. The union does more to keep a teahcer employed than tenure. (By the way unions tend to be present in private enterprises as well as in government enterprises). The biggest reason it is difficult to fire a teacher now is that there is a HUGE teacher shortage. Do you really wonder why? As I posted above it is not me personally because I am accountable as a clinnician. Not a teacher. No one seems to bash us. I would probably not be so vehement in my own defence. I have seen the deterioration of the morale of PS teachers. MANY many of them are actually becomming what people accuse them of being because they are getting the "Why bother" attitude. Recap for the skimmers.... 1. While I am very open to alternatives to government schools, I believe most people are drastically underestimating the poverty culture's effect on alternative school plans. I still want to see those children receive an education. This population is particulary left out of the home school model since many parents are unwilling/unable to teach their children nor will many of them seek any help from neighbors, volunteers or fellow gang members. 2. Demoralizing the teachers is adding to the problem. Yes alternitives such as privatization are option but it is not there, at least not yet. In the meantime I believe we have to support (or at least not ridicule) the people who are trying to do the job. Particularyly in the area of private or charter shcools, this same population of teachers is likely to be what is hired by the private/charter shcools to teach the millions released to their care. If not what carrot is going to be out there to attract new and better teachers? Protester against the culture war!!!!

Feb 16, 2004, 10:45 am	#47 (permalink) (top)
Anniee Mr. Queen Posts: 231	I am beginning to wonder if you're deliberately skewing the points made or simply not comprehending them at all. You're still applying the SAME MODEL when people are explaining (sometimes painstakingly) that they're talking about getting rid of the actual model. Please try to grasp what I mean by "model" before attempting to reply to that, because so far it hasn't even registered or, and I hope this isn't the case, it's simply being ignored on purpose. You speak of serious neglect (toddler left alone so often he drank out of toilets) which is a criminal issue (and toddlers don't go to school) so I don't know where that came from. There are and should be penalties for abuse, don't you think? Bringing up uncommon and extreme instances is sort of unfair, we could all do that. I brought up widespread systemic issues in my last post, and I've noticed you haven't mentioned them (despite wanting examples of "indoctrination," which is after all where some of this began.) You keep saying that this "nonconstructive" criticism and "bashing" is the REASON schools are failing, and frankly that's really been torn to shreds already by a heck of a lot of unrefuted proofs that have been offered to you. They weren't designed to succeed at some things, and in fact are not. Unsurprisingly. You've offered not a single substantive thing (that I've seen) to back up the position that it's those who point out that mandatory government schooling is a bad idea ARE IN FACT THE CAUSE of its failure. Your only evidence is that you see teachers get depressed and discouraged by it, and give up. Frankly that doesn't have squat to do with ANY of the actual problems, much less the ones that have been brought to light. By the way, teachers make a lot more money per year than my family of four has lived on with our one income for over a decade; and we don't have benefits; AND most of them have more than one income per family. Only recently have we possibly surpassed them (and I'm not even sure, as the last figures I saw were 6 years old.) Singing the blues on that one and daring to call people "sheltered" was not cool whatsoever. I should be so sheltered as someone who makes at least $40K in 9.5 months WITH benefits (as of '97.) In any case it's all a moot point because this bureaucracy is going NOWHERE and all the crying in the world over any criticism of the system and how we're destroying it by our criticism isn't going to MAKE it go anywhere. I'd agree, I think, to a raise in teacher salaries if they'd agree to stop advocating against homeschoolers. You want to talk persecution, start looking at the people who REALLY get it. It ain't the government employees. Now this is just getting obnoxious. Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. Mohandas Gandhi

Feb 16, 2004, 10:52 am	#48 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	HAHAHAHA </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by What is so bothersome about civility<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>, ...... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Please do not pretend that it does not appear on your screen, disappearing into the ether with the others.. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by It is the destruction of this system that would bring joy to anyone who loves knowledge, education, children, and peace.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Be ware of your own delusions of grandeur.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Calling darkness light, falseness truth, and emotion reason are all wonderful examples of Orwellian newspeak.. works well in the government schools, is that where you learned it?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by honesty, <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>.......... Disclaimer... I am not sure the following quotes are dishonest, so I am not calling anyone a liar. They may be a result of irrationality. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Is honesty too much to request? You have left many questions unanswered, many refutations ignored, and most issues raised to the side. Unlike you, I have answered all of your questions, addressed the issues, and refuted the claims and arguments offered. I have not employed ad hominem attacks, insults, mischaracterizations, or other deceptive or irrational behaviors. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by And for what it is worth, I have already pointed out that your characterization of teachers as victims is not only false, but absurd.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> (see above quotes) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by and sound arguments?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by When was the last time you saw a reasonable presentation of any situation in which the US government was involved?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I deny your unfounded assumption that there are children who have no access to any adult capable of teaching them anything. The notion is quite simply absurd. Such children do not exist, unless of course they are being raised by wolves.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Protester against the culture war!!!!

Feb 16, 2004, 11:00 am	#49 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	This may have been answered in the last 4 pages, which are way too long to begin reading now, but, what concept about American education is so flawed that 22 people do not approve of it? I disapprove of the idea that education is meant for everyone. If it were up to me, 15% or so of the population would have any schooling at all, unless you count vocational training. I think the first 18 years of an American's life are completely wasted in making him something he is not. There really is no use for what you learn in school for most people. Add to that the fact that rudimentary education is what inspires the ignorant crowds to think their opinion matters, and their own TV-guided whims are enlightened and supported and everyone has an obligation to respect them. Something tells me that no one else agrees with this essentially medieval or ancient perspective. So why did 21 other people say the entire concept is flawed? The concept is, "People who will grow up to vote need an education." My problem is with the entire justification for even having elections. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Feb 16, 2004, 11:31 am	#50 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	Sheesh I respod to one and another pops up... Yea I am defending the unpopular. It is getting kind of old to me too but hey? We are here to debate issues. Anniee, </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I am beginning to wonder if you're deliberately skewing the points made or simply not comprehending them at all. You're still applying the SAME MODEL when people are explaining (sometimes painstakingly) that they're talking about getting rid of the actual model. Please try to grasp what I mean by "model" before attempting to reply to that, because so far it hasn't even registered or, and I hope this isn't the case, it's simply being ignored on purpose.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You may be right. I may have a misconception of what you mean by model. I assume you are talking about what you believe is an indoctronation model that is used by PS to teach children. I assume your criticism holds for the private schools and charter schools as well because if you mean methodology, textbooks and carriculums they are not much different from private to PS to charter. I have worked in two Private schools and had to review Charter school carriculums during school improvement exercises. If I am wrong about what you mean bu model, enlighten me so that I may better address what you are saying. If I am correct just understand that I am unconvinced (regardless of the origins of public schools) that our current PS system has alterior motives to education. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You speak of serious neglect (toddler left alone so often he drank out of toilets) which is a criminal issue (and toddlers don't go to school) so I don't know where that came from. There are and should be penalties for abuse, don't you think? Bringing up uncommon and extreme instances is sort of unfair, we could all do that. I brought up widespread systemic issues in my last post, and I've noticed you haven't mentioned them (despite wanting examples of "indoctrination," which is after all where some of this began.) <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> First of all I said preschooler -not toddler-. Most people would not consider a 4 year old a toddler. Yes this student was seen as part of government education (enrollment in Head Start). Yes it was abuse and it was reported since all Head Start personnel, as well as PS teachers, are mandated reporters. Glad we caught it. At least we managed to help that child a bit by getting him out of that home. True he would eventually gotten tall enough to reach the sink without us but I still think we helped. All that aside you are correct that it is unfair to use atrocity stories and try to apply them across the board. I certainly hear about atrocities in public schools that would NEVER be tolerated in any where I work but are presented as if it is the norm. I stand corrected. It is a method I stooped to because I just cannot believe that so many of you have no idea how irresponsible SOME of this population is. That even if help was made available to them, regardless of the model, they would not seek it out. As a special educator I am not able to serve a child until I receive written permission form the parents. It can take months just to get a signature to address the disablity. They peek out of curtains and do not answer the door.... sorry there I go again. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You keep saying that this "nonconstructive" criticism and "bashing" is the REASON schools are failing,<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> That is a mistake on your part. Check my posts I never said it was the REASON. It is not even close to the REASON. What I have said and what I believe is that it is a contributing factor. The REASONS go much deeper. You appear to put all the blame on the "model". I see a lot of reasons including (what I believe you mean as) the model. You seem to think I am ignoring what is said to me by others on this post and I do not know why. I have read the posts and feel I have responded to most of them. I remain unconvinced and maybe that is why you believe I am twisting or whatever. I also think I am not being read very carefully (and perhaps being unintentionally twisted) when you post that I said bashing is the REASON (even go so far as to capitolize it) for a failing system, which I nver did. Only said that it was a contributing facror (and the most easliy corrected since it can be done with common curtosy and no cost)... Or when.. you take my example of a preschooler and imply that I said toddler and then point out that they dont go to school. You seemed to read preschooler as toddler and be forgetful of (or unaware of) Head Start, Children at risk, The Pre-K program or other government based preschool programs. Before you misunderstand I am not trying to start a fight over whether they are effective or not only pointing out that they exist and that is why preschoolers can end up in school. Why jump to those false conclusions? I understand you hate the system... or model the system uses... OK. I concede that point. My frustration comes.... once again..... In that I have still not seen any realistic plan for my poverty culture children. I still am convinced that demoraliztion of the work force ADDS TO (not causes) the problem. I don't think I can be any clearer. Protester against the culture war!!!!

Feb 16, 2004, 02:54 pm	#51 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Annie, You are obviously correct in your noting that replacing the current system with another nearly identical system simply avoids the points that have been repeatedly made, and repeatedly ignored or misconstrued. The idea that one size fits all, that there is not only a need but a right to force others to abide by the presumed omniscience of some arbitrary few is itself erroreous such that no matter how we apply it, it will remain erroneous. This is in part what I was trying to get to with the thought experiment I put forth that was unfortunately twisted way out of the possibility for recognition. I was hoping that in showing the double standards, the hypocrisy, that a light bulb would go on, and actual alternatives would then be considered. m5, Is there any purpose to continuing the mischaracterizations and personal attacks? Or are you willing to put that behavior aside so that we may discuss the issue? Let us step back to some of your assumptions you use as premises: 1. Teachers and the government schools are personally attacked groundlessly. Do you have any evidence which supports this set of assumptions, which run counter to that which is observable and verifiable? 2. That a single regulated schema is necessary and desirable. Again, what are your reasons for this assumption? 3. That you are defending the unpopular (government schools)? Again, the same question: can you substantiate this claim that defending the status quo is somehow unpopular. LB

Feb 16, 2004, 05:24 pm	#52 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You yourself generalized teachers as dishonest.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> False, blatantly so. I never so much as hinted that teachers are dishonest. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You yourself stated that they were less respectable than drug dealers or pimps.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Again this is false, but at least this time there is something remotely similar which was simply mischaracterized. In response to your own comparison to drug dealers and pimps, I noted that the GROUP of GOVERNMENT "teachers" did not acknowledge their actions and the consequences of them, unlike drug dealers and pimps. So you got the group mischaracterized as well as the actual descriptions. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You did not directly call teachers lazy but It is a common accusation. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is question begging. Where is the EVIDENCE? Simply restating your groundless claims does not give them any support. All of which is naught but a clear red herring avoiding the very simple straight forward question asked: upon what do you base your unfounded assertion that teachers are unjustly and overwhelmingly criticized. Even if I had taken the positions you falsely attribute to me, even if I or anyone held the beliefs you attribute to me, you would at best be offering ONE example as "proof" of your universal claims. Surely you know that one instance does not a universal make. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by This is one of the resons I do not believe people are reading what I say. I do NOT think a single regulated schema is necessary, only that it is what is in place. I have said time and time again I DO NOT CARE FOR THE SYSTEM EITHER but I do not think it is as poisonous as you do. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> That you have not acknowledged any of the alternatives, that you insist that some specific SYSTEM be offered to replace the current one, both belie your claim. Also that you demand that those who are noting the objective facts bear the burden of proof for any and all alternatives to the failed government run institutions lends even more evidence to the position you are denying you hold. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by That does not make me unreasonable or illogical. It means we disagree. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have not said otherwise. However that you employ logical fallacies, unfounded and baseless assumptions, as well as personal attacks all stand as clear and objective evidence to that end. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by These points I concede but somehow you keep missing that just because I do not blieve the current system is of evil intent.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You have no evidence for this claim either. I have used the tools of reason to dmeonstrate that many of your assumptions are false and baseless, that your arguments are fatally flawed by logical fallacies, and that your personal attacks on myself have no bearing on the issues at all. No where have I missed your statements, quite the contrary as I relied explicitly upon them to make these very points. You ought not attribute mental states to others for which you have no evidence. The question to which you offered these red herrings as responses was, and remains: 2. That a single regulated schema is necessary and desirable. Again, what are your reasons for this assumption? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Sorry for the repetition here but it seems this is not getting through. I am only defending government schools because they are what is in place IN THE INTERUM to a better way. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Perhaps you believe this to be true, but your words tell a different story. You have denied all alternatives, as well as insisted on a complete governed system to replace the currect failed system. By removing all alternatives, you are de facto supporting the status quo. However the question asked for evidence supporting the claim that you are defending the unpopular.

Feb 16, 2004, 08:47 pm	#53 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	In fairness to Lightbearer he is not referring to a false topic. I did indeed go back and delete a post I made at 3:47 PM Feb. 16th 2004. All of the quotes he attributes to me are accurate. I posted it originally in response to LBs request to set aside animosity and try for civil discourse. I felt I did in that post. Then I read the rude, condecending, 'how can you dare to defy my brilliant logic' tone of his response and decided that my approach will not matter. The hand of civility was streached one way. I put out a hand and had it spit in. Don't you wish you could take that back in real life? Well here you can. I took back my civility. If that makes me look like I am running away.. so be it. Who's respect am I trying to earn here? LB's? haha. There is just one thing I cannot avoid commenting on. In response to LB's request for response: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 1. Teachers and the government schools are personally attacked groundlessly. Do you have any evidence which supports this set of assumptions, which run counter to that which is observable and verifiable?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I posted the folloing as quoted by LB above: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You yourself generalized teachers as dishonest.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> LB's response: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by False, blatantly so. I never so much as hinted that teachers are dishonest. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Original quote I was referring to: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Drug dealers and pimps are more honest,<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Maybe that is ... how did he put it? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by mischaracterized<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> but considering those are LBs exact words I cannot help thinking that he had indeed "...so much as hinted that teachers are dishonest." Anyway beyond that I forgo all my rights of rebuttal. Since I deleted my post that is the price I shall pay. It is getting tireing being insulted for haveing the audacity to disagree with LB anyway. I still have strong feelings on this subject and if anyone would like to respond reasoably to the following I would still welcome discourse. (I promise you will not have to gag through any more crap between me and LB. Maybe from his end but not mine.) 1. If you would abolish government schools what would you see in its place. Not suggesting a system just tell me what you would seee as education for our children? Please state these in positives without bashing any other method. 2. How abruptly would you make the change? Would you have a transition plan or would you just close the schools and see what happened? In this instance could you please address the culture shock. Even though home schooling had a millinia of success it was not dropped all at once on a culture who has been dependent on an alternative for generations. 3. Since we all know this is not going to happen this year why are you so opposed to my suggestion of respect, or at least courtesy, for your fellow citizens who are working with what we have? 4. Remembering that I do NOT think that demoralization is a complete REASON for anything, do you truly not beleive demoralization can affect performance? If you believe it can It just seems like a simple, costless, very easy way to help just a little. If not.. why not? Thanks for your time. Protester against the culture war!!!!

Feb 16, 2004, 09:25 pm	#54 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by It is getting tireing being insulted for haveing the audacity to disagree with LB anyway.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have asked in the past for honesty and I would ask for it again. I have not insulted you. I have not spit in your hand as you pretend. I have not insisted that you be impressed by anything. I have asked for but the minimum basic characteristics of an honest civil intellectual discourse. When you have made personal attacks, false accusations, mischaracterizations and the like I have quite simply refuted them. When you have failed to answer the questions asked, I have asked the questions again. When you have offered red herrings, ad hominems, and other logical fallacies in place of a reasoned response I have noted them. None of these behaviors on my own part are insulting, offensive, or even of any real note given that they are the norm in any honest civil intellectual discussion. That you have taken offense to the very idea that your claims can be questioned, that you would be asked for some small degree of evidence to support your claims demonstrates at least an unfamiliarity with intellectual discussions, else an antagonistic attitude towards the same. However, yet again please allow me to give you every possible opportunity to demonstrate that your claims are true: cite these insults you claim exist, and are consistently offered? Without evidence, without connection to reality, such claims are naught but ad homimen attacks and red herrings. For the record I have been civil to you at all times. You cannot simply stipulate that no one can offer clear and sound refutations of your claims and arguments, else they face the accusation of incivility. As for your cut and paste job, I would ask that you accurately represent the facts by actually taking the ENTIRE statement rather than editing it to suit your desired claim. However even with your editing, it fails to support your claim. You still have no instance of my claiming that all teachers, or even all government "teachers" are dishonest. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 1. If you would abolish government schools what would you see in its place. Not suggesting a system just tell me what you would seee as education for our children? Please state these in positives without bashing any other method.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Since you have demonstrated that ANY criticism, ANY objective observation of government schools, will be labeled "bashing" your criterion here is far from intellectually honest. It is akin to telling another to prove their position without ever accounting for all of the failures of other possibilities. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Would you have a transition plan or would you just close the schools and see what happened?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Again, this necessitates some degree of omniscience as well as a single system. Furthermore it is a false dichotomy. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 3. Since we all know this is not going to happen this year why are you so opposed to my suggestion of respect, or at least courtesy, for your fellow citizens who are working with what we have? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> False premise. NO ONE has said that courtesy ought not be given, nor basic respect for persons. All that has been offered is objective criticism, noting of the easily observed failures which NEED addressing, and yet you call any and all such simple facts by the label of "bashing." But please, prove me wrong: cite what you would allow along the lines of objective facts and criticism of the failed existing system. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by . Remembering that I do NOT think that demoralization is a complete REASON for anything, do you truly not beleive demoralization can affect performance? If you believe it can It just seems like a simple, costless, very easy way to help just a little. If not.. why not?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Again you start with a false assumption. You have repeatedly been asked to provide evidence of this victim status of teachers and thus far nothing has been offered to this end. Also should you not take into account that honest failure is far more demoralizing than unrecognized success? Why not simply accept that these failure in fact exist, and that they will not disappear by ignoring them or refusing to allow others to recognize them? It is worth mentioning that this is not a battle of personalities. It never matters who makes the sound argument, who offers the facts, who notes the false assumptions or flawed arguments. It appears that you have taken all of this personally, especially given that you claim to be insulted by the mere act of asking for evidence, or by the act of refuting a poorly developed position or argument. But so what? The one who will help you most is the one who points out the weaknesses in your position and your arguments, for it is from this individual that you will learn. Those who simply blindly agree with you teach you nothing and only help blind you to the flaws in the position or argument.