Forced Schooling in America

[Anniee]

I'm sure that post wasn't directed towards me since I didn't say any of the things you're railing against in there, but this part stood out to me (in case you had me in mind along with others when you wrote this part for some reason): "Yep I see those teachers every day but hell, thant can't be compared to what you learn in your Poly-Sci classes, or those people you talk to at collage, or what those books and articles say."

As for me personally, I've been busily home educating my children for 15 years now and have been active in board of education and legislative issues on the local and state levels, as well as being a veteran of compulsory government schooling myself. I've earned my stripes and my right to speak on this and that isn't simply from studying it exhaustively (though that is indeed an aspect worth noting.)

John Taylor Gatto also taught in the government schooling system - and won many awards for doing so - for thirty years. Is he allowed to discuss it? It's hard to tell under the sarcasm. I didn't come across his books until I'd been home educating for some time, but it was a nice discovery nonetheless.

You know, when I first read the 6 Lesson schoolteacher, I recognized many aspects of my own years in that prison. I've known several kids like me who were cursed/blessed with that native quickness and very high intelligence that serve to do little but show you the stupidity of the system in which you were trapped. Most of those of the highest intelligence left as soon as they could - no excuse was ever offered for why those of us who nearly aced the SATs at 13 were still being forced to sit through five more years of indoctrination (there is a reason.) Unfortunately, like Cassandra, we knew what it was and we hated it but couldn't do anything, and most didn't even realize it. Those six loathsome lessons. The class warfare drilled into us daily, being taught to despise those who weren't as smart as we were? Disgusting. You DO teach those six lessons, whether you realize it/admit it or not. They're mandatory. http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/etext/6-lesson...oolteacher.html

The very best - the top one percent - of US students are failing miserably compared to the best elsewhere. But even this isn't the issue. Even if the socialized schools weren't (as they MUST do) failing people would still have the absolute right to direct the upbringing and education of their own children. It still remains unconstitutional to have compulsory education funded on the federal level. It is still the responsibility and the right of those who have the children to bring up and educate them. When others do things for you you get lazy. So have parents. So long as you government people STOP trying to FORCE our family into your system or putting any requirements of your failing system onto ME and MY family, I have no issue with you. Keep on with it. Knock yourselves out and I won't even fight the taxes you take from me. Homeschoolers want and deserve to be left alone by a system that doesn't even work. That is really not much to ask.

[Anniee]

liberty you might enjoy this article on the ridiculous bureaucratic system that is called "teacher certification." Of course much more has been exposed about the failure of that methodology; this is simply an anecdotal account. Some of the best private schools and of course colleges don't follow that arbitrary standard, naturally, which is one reason they tend to do better. Here

[libertyminded]

5lange1

I'm not sure whether you're picking out parts of my arguments you think are flawed and just responiding to those or if you are simply missing my point alltogether.

It is NOT my contention that the the teachers are responsible for the stupidity of the students but rather the formula of the education system.

It really doesn't matter how good any one teacher is or isn't. The system is specifically set up so that people that really do want to educate CAN'T. For the most part I wholeheartedly agree with you that teachers are doing their best to make do with what they have. Unfortunately what they have is a system where kids are shuffled along like cattle every few minutes so that they can never become very engrossed in deep and meaningful learning. I was shocked at the huge difference in the pace when I went from public school to college. At college, in most cases, you still get that little bit of time each day for each subject but the proffesors belt information out at you at pace that pretty much every public school student finds difficult to keep up with for their first year. In other cases we have classes that last 2 1/2 hours for subjects that require lots of back and forth between the students and the proffesor and even at the end of those classes I always come away thinking there was so much more that could have been discussed.

While there are lazy teachers and bad teachers out there, I would say that they are the minority. Most of the teachers I had in public school seemed to me like they were really trying to educate us but the students were mostly not there to be educated. School (these days at least) is more of a social club than anything else. Students are much more concentrated on who's cool and who's not and who's got the flashy new shoes and a myriad of other meaningless crap, then gaining a more profound understanding of the arts and sciences. I did notice that this massive, cruel popularity contest did do one thing very usefull for our ever more socialist society, it gets you used to the pecking order. It gets you used to being an underling just waiting for the chance to be accepted by a higher echelon of social status.

You're in english class for 48 minutes, that's as long as your english teacher has to impart some nugget of information about the finier points of your language to you, but you're in "society class" all day long. In this class you are humiliated and elevated on a regular basis for your hapenstance. Made to feel like a piece of filth for not having a slick baseball hat or slightly unkept hair or maybe you have a hole in your sock in the locker room. You get elevated when you come up with a particularlly witty slight against a less fortunate student, or when you show your metal by ignoring the teacher when they try to silence your social chatter. With everyone constantly consumed in the ratrace how do you expect any teacher to be able to educate.

You might not think it, but the system was INTENTIONALLY designed with this in mind. To ensure that no one particullarly dedicated or bright teacher would capture the minds of the students and actually turn them into learners instead of just cogs in a social machine. The John Taylor Gatto fellow I tell you about was a teacher in New York for 30 years and constantly pissed off his superiors because he wouldn't submit his students to this cruelty. He wanted to have the kids read Moby Dick and was forced to SMUGGLE in actual copies of the book because when he asked for it from the administration they provided him with a rendition of the book specially made for public schools. In the public school version the book is chopped up into neat clean sections that can be read and discussed inside a 48 minute period, with little questions at the end of each section predetermined by some "expert" in a university somewhere (usually the University of Chicago or Columbia Teacher's College). Naturally these students couldn't be trusted to read the book in it's unadulterated form. That kind of learning would be to unbridled... who knows what kind of conclusions students might come to if allowed to disect this book on their own terms. When (after a few days) the administrators in Gatto's school noticed that his student's weren't buzzing about to the sound of the bells like all the other classes the Principal went in to see what was the matter. He came in to find all of the students engrossed in copies of Moby Dick not approved by the administration and proceded to shout all manner of abuse at Gatto for his insubordinace.

You're right throwing rocks at the car isn't going to get it going again, but the point you're missing is that we shouldn't be ridding in that car. Doing so will turn us all into slaves to a system that we cannot control. That is not freedom and freedom is more important than anything else PERIOD!

[Jackney Sneeb]

It pleases me to see such articulate voices kicking the crap out of the idea of public education. There is yet hope for America.

--Jackney Sneeb

[m5lange1]

No Anniee my post was not really aimed at you. It was reflecting the other statments regarding how teachers have just gotten lazy when I see year after year how much harder they are being made to work, how much more difficult their job gets year after year and how no one ever seems to want to stand up for them. They do work hard and they are held to high standards.
And I do think it is harmful to enable the problem populations to shuck their responsibility.

In response to you, you will note that I have had nothing but compliments for those of you who are dedicated and have successfully home shcooled your children. I do not know what type of population you served but when you taught, but I try to picture some of the families I have served home schooling their own children... well I somehow do not think they would approach it with your skill and dedication.

And I do feel strange standing alone to defend a profession (which I confess I am not really a part of since I am a clinnician) that takes on a difficult, important and necessary task. It is not like these people are corperate raiders or drug dealers or pimps. They are people who spend their life trying to educate children. If people don't want to say thanks, ok fine. Why kick them around do badly?

Between you and I Anniee the citizen in me really believes we should support and try to improve public education but the viscious vengeful me would really get a sick joy in seeing it collapse.

I really want to see what the alternatives will be. All those kids are going to be educated somewhere even if it is just on the street corner with the other kids.

Will some alternative school system such as charter or private take over? What will they do when they are given the full blast of hard case kids? Not just a few that get in on a voucher but the whole gang. The ones who sneak the weapons in and tell the teachers and principals to F**K off and if you call in the parents they are apt to attack the teacher (Oh yea seen it happen more than once). Where will they get the teachers?

You seem well read so I am sure you are aware that 25% of our current certified teachers will retire in the next 8 years. The new crop of graduates is sure not keeping up. Where will they get the buildings and administators for this mass of humanity dumped on their doorstep?

What wonderful new carriculum will be introduced? I have even been involved with public schools collaberating with charter carriculums and the like trying to get their scores up. Believe me they are trying like someone drownding to stay alive.

If it is home school enmasse do you really feel that the parents in this country are as qualified as you and perhaps your circle of friends to school thier children at home? Do you trust single parents who are working or (sorry to say) alchaholic and drug addicted parents to produce citizens that we will not have to support at best or arrest at worst?

At one of our own school meetings one of our administrators was going on about how the student population was no excuse for a lower performance. He then proceded to downgrade the staff at school X for being on the watch list pointing out two or three examples of poor schools with no money who were making excellent progress. He then went on to praise the teachers at school Y for thire hight achievement.

Recognizing that there are exceptions to every rule and that the rarity of success in the disadvntaged communities should re-affirm the difficulty, not disprove it, I made a suggestion. Why don't we let those great teachers from school Y and those lazy teachers from school X change schools for a year or two so that the children as school X could benifit from the better talent for a couple of years. I am sure I don't have to tell you who applauded and who had looks of pure panic on their faces.

[Anniee]

I suppose I haven't read the whole thread, then. Teachers are just people who happen to be fighting a losing battle within a bad system. My attacks are on the system itself, and on the strongarm tactics of unions (yes including teacher's unions) and legislators that are used against good and responsible parents.

I do have faith in the free market and in people, tremendous faith, yes. Before we instituted compulsory education in this country the literacy rate for non-slaves was nearly 100 percent. People were going to college (at a far higher level of learning than we approach today) at 14 years old, proficient in languages, mathematics, writing, history, etc. When people have to do for themselves, they generally DO for themselves. When they don't have to, they don't. We simply don't know all the various things that would happen if the constitution were adhered to and true liberty was tried - likely there would be a great many community-level schools, private arrangements by various groups of people involving many forms of barter, and a lot of other things we can't foresee. If you've ever read "I, Pencil" (available at the fee.org site) you'll see that it's quite unforeseeable the ways people find of meeting their needs. However it does happen. If given the chance.

To answer one of your specific questions, as to whether most parents are qualified - yes. Barring some very serious circumstances there's no reason why not. You may have noticed that there are curricula now that require little more than a warm body to administer - surely that's not ideal, but with all that's available it can be done on just about any level of teacher involvement. However, I don't think the question is all that necessary because there aren't simply two choices - compulsory government education OR solely private/homeschool. There are a myriad of possibilities from co-ops to things that we haven't thought of yet because we haven't had to. Humans are amazingly resourceful.

Still like I say so long as the compulsory arm is kept far from me and others like me I'm willing to live in a state of mutual toleration.

[sdcinder]

I have to agree with Anniee here. I home educate my children and am staunchly against public education. Where is another place in this country that people are seperated from the rest of real society, are told to believe ONLY what they are verbally fed, are forced to only socialize with other people like them, AND don't learn how to deal with the real world until they are released? Prison of course. Why should we place our children in an environment that matches only prison and is a prison of sorts? How do we really learn how do deal with people of all sorts of ages, races, education levels, and opinions if we are NEVER exposed to them? We just can't. Is the foreign language that we chose to learn in high school enough that we can speak it in the given country of origin? No, not even the same at all. Was I prepared for the outside world at all after I graduated high school? No. I wasn't because I was limited to my days being eaten up by "school" in which all I really learned was how to hate other people and how to just "do enough to get by." It wasn't ever to do my best but just what ever it took to get through the day. I really disliked it all but I did well as far as grades went.

Sad. Academic intelligence was not only ridiculed but practically looked down upon if one was not athletic and helped the team get to State. Wasn't me. Yeah, we went to the academic meets around the area and I generally placed in them. Wasn't quite good enough though. Eight hours of my day was eaten up by being at school and then I would have another four or five hours of homework every night plus my chores that I was required to do at home. Where does that leave me to explore stuff that really interested me? It didn't. No self-learning allowed.

I didn't want that ridicule for my children, I wanted them to be able to explore their own interests and not be limited to sharing space with 25 other people vying for one person's attention. I have been homeschooling my children for about six years now and well, they are very well behaved, they can relate to people outside their age group, their academic understandings are higher than of their public school peers, and they are more responsible for their age than most other children. Not to say that public schooled kids can't be this way but it takes a parent being at home for them to really get a grasp on how to treat people that are not children AND a good moral structure. It is interesting because everyone that we decide we are going to spend time with, can't get enough of our kids and are always asking if they can keep our kids for the weekend or would like their kid(s) to hang out with ours so that they learn good habits.

Because I have spent quanity time with my kids I have gotten more quality time. Time to get to really know my kids not just know what they look like and what clothes they wear.

I thoroughly believe that compulsory attendance pushes to seperate the biggest influence in the lives of our future is to remove the children from that particular environment. Where would we be today if Thomas Edison had been forced to go to public school???

[Anniee]

Cinder that was a very astute post (I feel much the same way) and I just wanted to say it's really nice to "meet" a home educator :) It always is.

m5lange1,

There appears to be a problem or two of perception. If one wants to call up sacred (in the sense of above all criticism) positions/groups in the US, one need but mention police, firemen, military, and of course, perhaps most often: teachers. So while some mild and long overdue criticism may be offered in some small ways and in small places, such as online forums, it is less than accurate to characterize teachers as victims or persecuted.

You mention high standards for teachers. Could you cite some of these?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
And I do feel strange standing alone to defend a profession (which I confess I am not really a part of since I am a clinnician) that takes on a difficult, important and necessary task. It is not like these people are corperate raiders or drug dealers or pimps. They are people who spend their life trying to educate children. If people don't want to say thanks, ok fine. Why kick them around do badly?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Given that most "teachers" in the US are employed by the government, and undertake tasks other than education, I would take issue with the claim that "they" are people who are taking on an important, necessary, or difficult task. I would also question the assumption that education is involved. Drug dealers and pimps are more honest, as well as more aware of the negative effects of their actions, and for this are in fact more respectable than many in the profession at issue.

Out of curiosity, would you thank the propagandaists of a facists, or socialist regime for "teaching" your children that one group is better or more deserving than another? If not, which I assume you would not, then why thank those here playing the exact same role?

It is the destruction of this system that would bring joy to anyone who loves knowledge, education, children, and peace. No reason to see this joy as "sick." Instead celebrate in it, and remember that the majority of the great accomplishments of humans occured either in the absence of government enforced "schools" or despite the existence of such camps. Always recall that government "schools" are a new creation, just over 100 years old, and even then they did not cover 100% of the population and did not extend as long as they do now, nor were the areas of indoctrination so stringent or dictated to the teachers for most of that time.

If you will humor me with a quick thought experiment, look to all of your criticisms of homeschoolers, and your suggested solutions for government schools, and invert them. Now consider the suggestions and criticisms. There is a clear assumption that if the parents "fail" (not sure by what standard this is to be judged) then the government "must" seize control. Okay.. (well naturally I disagree, being a peace and knowledge loving individual, but for the sake of discussion.. ) so when the government "schools" or representatives ("teachers") fail, then the control ought to be taken away from the government correct? If not, then why not?

In hope of avoiding some of the personal attacks and flawed assumptions that are so common on forums, allow me to throw in some personal info that is irrelevant to the questions and points made, but may help lower walls: I have been a teacher myself, even for two years in a government funded institution of some note, and I come from a family which includes government school, as well as private school teachers.

[m5lange1]

Sorry all sarcasm aside. I went through and got a Masters degree and chose a profession in education. I certainly did not do it for the money, I certainly did not do it because I thought it would be a cushy job. I did this because I really wanted to help people, especially young people. As a citizen I wanted to make a contribution beyond just earning money for some corperation.

It is not profitable for my level of education nor is it an easy short hour job. But it is a job I felt was necessary and important.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
First of all, the charter schools we have, have already proven their superiority, with the kids in them outperforming public school kids by leaps and bounds. I can hear your cantankering already saying that it's because these schools have kids in them that come from better social backrounds or something like it but you're wrong. Public School teachers don't have to worry about performing effectively, their jobs are secure no matter how well they do their job. Charter School teachers are held to a standard. If kids aren't learning the stuff, the teachers are reviewed.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I work there. This is a total misconception of what is going on. I am sure anyone who has worked in the public schools anytime during the past 10 years realizes this. Public school teachers are under tremendous stress (in my opinion so much stress right now that it is interfereing with their performance) to perform. Reviewed? Have you actually heard from someone that public school teachers are not reviewed? You do not think, especially with all this politicizing that public school staff are not held to a standard? It is all they hear day in week out. And you may be tired of hearing about social backround affecting performance but the truth has a way of resurfacing.
Look at any demographics map in any city and pick out the trouble schools.
Its like telling those lazy lumberjacks over in lot a that you are damned tired of hearing those 'no axes or saws' excuses.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
It pleases me to see such articulate voices kicking the crap out of the idea of public education. There is yet hope for America.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
It's a disgusting and dismal failure and needs to be scrapped. It's 100% unconstitutional at the federal level and it's time to not fund it to unprecedented symphonies of dollars but to end it already.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I think the teachers have gotten lazier in their duties and instead of working harder, they want to dope up our kids with ridilin. Our kids aren't there to accomodate the teacher's needs, the teachers are their to do that for the students.. lets dope them up on caffeine to boost them up to do their jobs.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Where is another place in this country that people are seperated from the rest of real society, are told to believe ONLY what they are verbally fed, are forced to only socialize with other people like them, AND don't learn how to deal with the real world until they are released? Prison of course. Why should we place our children in an environment that matches only prison and is a prison of sorts?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

As I said I spent 6 years in collage hoping to go in to a profession that really helped people. Having actually done it for 25 years I feel like I have.

On behalf of all of us who are really out there trying I thank you all for your support.

I enjoy a good argument and have thoroughly enjoyed most of the threads here. Maybe this one is a little to close to home for me to be here with absolutely no supporters. I am starting to feel a little sick on this one.

[Anniee]

I'm sorry you feel that way; try to distinguish between attacks on a system and attacks on your person; they really are very different things.

Were any of the questions asked answered?

I allowed that you may be able to find some few criticisms of government indoctrinators here and other forums, but noted specifically that this is not the norm by any stretch, noting that in fact teachers (by which most mean government indoctrinators) are perhaps the most sacred of the professional groups in the US.

I do agree with your comment that perhaps this is too close to home for you to look at objectively, but then again I see no reason why you would not want to take a step back, appreciate that you are more than your chosen profession, perhaps even better than the majority of others in your chosen profession, and quite possibly you have even been betrayed by those controlling your chosen profession. I know that this is the reason the few true teachers I have known in government schools have left.

BTW to what sarcasm are you referring? Did you mistakenly assume that some existed in my own post? I offered the comments, arguments, thought experiments, and observations quite straightforwardly and honestly.

I too spent six years in college, then I decided that I liked it enough to spend another six to continue exploring various ideas and avenues of study. I am not sure what to offer on the supporter notion.. The mere fact that others disagree ought not be enough to sway you, for any teacher enters a classroom every single day to face any number of students (I had to face about 300, and several colleagues and superiors) that disagree, and this is met as a either a challenge or an opportunity. But allow me for one to say that I offer an honest opportunity: address me honestly, reasonably, objectively and rationally and you will prevail. I do no hold onto positions for nonsensical reasons such as emotion or false pride.. so please fire away.. :)

[Packratt]

While it's easy to stereotype those who work within a system for the general flaws of the system itself, it should be said that there are some teachers who do work hard to actually teach instead of babysit or indoctinate despite labryntine policies and regulations that work against them, some do make a difference. (yes, I do believe that public schools are geared by policy to indoctrinate people and train them to be consumers and subserviant workers).

I homeschool my children as well, but for many different reasons instead of just a general dissapointment with or mistrust of the public school system in the US.

[libertyminded]

15ange1

Let me be perfectly clear. My criticism of the public school system is exactly that, criticism of the SYSTEM. I know I got a little belligerent in some of my attacks agains the teacher end of things and let me appologize for that now. Teachers (for the most part) are in there fighting the good fight with their hands tied behind their backs. The system is engineered to deny the teachers ant meaningfull opportunity to get familiar with their students. Granted I think most teachers have come out of teaching certification indoctrinated with a lot of socialist propaganda, but nevertheless I believe that most of them are vested heart and soul into diseminating knowledge and understanding. Just take a look at my last post and you'll see why the schools are failing. It's the formula, not teachers.

Furthermore, I also think that teachers are grossly underpaid, but the answer is not more money for the system. The system is top heavy with beauracratic freeloaders. Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts; two thirds of every dollar we spend on education in this country never makes it into a classroom.

I do find your obstinace regarding the genesis of the system irritating though. Like Aniee said... there was no conspiracy to turn America into a country full of ignorant people, conspiracies are done in secret, what these people (Carnegie, Ford, JP Morgan, Rockefeller, John Dewey, Horace Mann) did was completely out in the open and they didn't really have sinister intentions. They thought they were engineering a system that would work to keep society sustainible, but that meant making it easier to control people. Here's a quote from the Executive Director of the NEA made in public right before WWI, "we will accomplish in this country through the education system what dictators in Europe are now trying to accomplish through coercion and force."

Anyway I appologize again if I denegrated the teaching proffesion and those that suffer long and hard hours to try better the lives of others. It was not my intention.

[m5lange1]

Pretty obvious I am the Devil's advocate on this thread so I am responding to several members at once. I also have arthritus and type slowly so quite often by the time my post comes up it no longer follows the last post I read.

In addition to that I know I am wordy. If I saw one of my posts I wold probably skim it as well.... let alone go back and thoroughly read them all

I pretty much realize I am not going to convince this partcular group of much. We all seem to be pretty firmly entrenched in our opinions. Since Liberty was considerate enough PM me and ask that I return I have. Let me state my positions below in a very skimable way since I think many of you misunderstood.

(Lightbearer your response is going to be more specific so it will be in a later post).

1. I never felt any of you were attacking me personally since I am not a teacher. I am accounatble on a more medical model and whether or not my students are corrected is much more obvious. If he still says /th/ for /s/ then I am not done. I have also worked in hospitals and convolescent centers and parochial schools (since they do not have special educators in my city) and my basic technique does not change.

2. I work with public school teachers and see how hard they work. What makes me sad/angy is the way people hear untruths about public schools so often that they just assume it is true. (And I am not talking about indocronation subtleties here I am talking about observable truths.

a) That PS teachers are not reviewd. It is weekly and it is a priority and lately it has become brutal. I see this all the time. They have gone so far as to bring in non public school experts to observe classes regularly.

b) That tenure means you cannot be fired. That is a myth. It makes it more difficult, just like any union contract would be. It just requires that adminstrators have some proof of a cause. I have seen tenured teachers fired.

c) That PS teachers are not held to a high standard. They may not be achieving a high standard but if they are at a school that is not they are working extra and coming to special meetings and have to submit improvement plans. If after a review period their plan has not worked they had better provide a reason why and how they will fix it.

3. I also have worked in parochial schools when they have had special needs children. The carriculum is almost identical and the methods of teaching the same. One of my close friends has taught both private and pubic here in our city. I asked him last night and he said the differences are minimal and the ones that exist are the addition church indoctronation. No complaint, just observation.

4. Regardless of sinister origins, I believe people involved in public school systems from the beauracrats who make the rules through school-board members, through administrators down to student tutors (with the exception of the same number of bad apples likely to be found in any profession) are really doing what they feel is right to educate our children.

5. I have not criticized home schooling. I have been nothing but compimentary to those of you that have home schooled your children. My concerns with it are noted below.

6. THIS ONE MOST OF YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED. I agree that our current system of public schools is bad and getting worse. What we seem to disagree on is why and what should be done about it.

a) I cannot stress this enough. People are tired of the excuse of certain student populations bringing down scores or being more difficult to teach. You may be sick of the arguments but the reason you hear them so much is because it is (at least) one of the major problems in public schools. Whatever system you put in will no longer be able to ignore this as an excuse but will have to deal with it. No system will succeed without addressing this problem.

b) Charter/private schools and that population. I have not had personal dealings with charter schools but I have seen how private schools in at least 6 different cities deal with hard case students. They toss them out and get them off the problem list. (Not expulsion or suspension where they have to remain on a roster they just scrape them off). I have read that charter schools do the same but cannot personally verify it. From the literature I have read no truly exclusive "slum/barrio" area charter school has shown any remarkable raise in scores. If literature (non internet since I have NO faith in what is posted there) is out there I would appriciate guidance toward it.

c) Homeschool/co-op. Supporters of home schooling are usually highly intelligent dedicated parents who set very high expectations and standards for their children. My Granfather smoked over a pack a day from the age of 12 and lived into his 80s. I still do not recommend it for everyone.
Please do not just read this, take a moment and picture telling parents who are gang members, parents who have left thier kids alone for days at a time while they are on binges, parents of cultures who actually scorn education, that they are on thieir own to teach their children either at home or in a co-op with the other residents of their tenament (or gang members). Can you honestly say that those children will get a fair shot at education?
Disclaimer: I am not talking race here I am talking a large poverty culture that includes all races.

7. I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SCRAPPING THE PS SYSTEM but I do want to see a REASONABLE alternative in place. I want to see the available personnel for charter/private schools ready to handle the millions that would be in need of their service. I want to see charter schools taking the populations I refer to above. I want to know what will happen to the millions of children who's parents are unwilling or unable to teach them a basic vocabulary much less teach them to read. Surly you realize any plan would have to take into consideration all of our children not just the ones in our own neighborhoods.

8. If you can do that, lets do it NOW.

9. If we cannot do it NOW for whatever reason PLEASE stop making what we have in the interum less effective. If you cannot knock it down STOP making it sick. Stop enabling parents and students to BLAME the teachers and shirk their share of the responsibility. No all parents dont't do that but millions do. Students know now that if they don't do well their teacher gets in trouble. I hear them talk about it. Add that to a culture that sees education as "uncool". Stop making PS Teacher such a joke that we no longer have students interested in that career. THAT is what I believe the other big problem is.

Go on and tell people there is a better way if you have a plan but why drag public education through the mud as you do because while we are waiting for you it is all we have.

[m5lange1]

Hello Lightbearer.
This the response you requested. I enjoy good debate and discourse but I am truly afraid that our beliefs are so far apart that they my qualify as different views of reality. Still that is just an impression. I could be wrong.
Anyway out of respect for your request here goes.....

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Were any of the questions asked answered?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

No. I took so long to write the post you referred to that I had not read yours before mine was complete so anything in that post was totally unaware of your questions.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
There appears to be a problem or two of perception. If one wants to call up sacred (in the sense of above all criticism) positions/groups in the US, one need but mention police, firemen, military, and of course, perhaps most often: teachers. So while some mild and long overdue criticism may be offered in some small ways and in small places, such as online forums, it is less than accurate to characterize teachers as victims or persecuted.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

"Mild..." ? "Some small ways....." Wow. Nothing I can say to that.
"..long overdue criticism" Yep mild and small ways.
Anyway I am not saying they are victims or persecuted I am saying they are routinly criticized for doing an difficult job and that they are being asked to shoulder an entire responsiblity that should be shared.

Regarding other helping professions... yea if this post was about firemen, police (at least in broad generalizations), and the military I would be in here defending them as well. Not from as broad a knowledge base since I am not associated with those professions but I feel they also get a bum rap.

Sorry I guess I will have to use your adjectives regarding firemen. "Mild and "in some small ways". Never have heard much fireman bashing. (shrug)

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Given that most "teachers" in the US are employed by the government, and undertake tasks other than education, I would take issue with the claim that "they" are people who are taking on an important, necessary, or difficult task.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

At my school they have playground duty... they have to watch the halls and do some discipinary activities occasionally. They attend PTA meetigns and occasionally have a pizza party or something as a class reward. I am trying to think of what tasks I see them undertake that are not educational. Guess I need an example or two.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Drug dealers and pimps are more honest, as well as more aware of the negative effects of their actions, and for this are in fact more respectable than many in the profession at issue. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Yep "Mild" and "in some small way". It is hard to believe the open-mindedness you profess at the end of your post.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Out of curiosity, would you thank the propagandaists of a facists, or socialist regime for "teaching" your children that one group is better or more deserving than another? If not, which I assume you would not, then why thank those here playing the exact same role?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Sorry I have not seen that occuring. Give me an exampleof what you are referring to.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If you will humor me with a quick thought experiment, look to all of your criticisms of homeschoolers, and your suggested solutions for government schools, and invert them. Now consider the suggestions and criticisms. There is a clear assumption that if the parents "fail" (not sure by what standard this is to be judged) then the government "must" seize control. Okay.. (well naturally I disagree, being a peace and knowledge loving individual, but for the sake of discussion.. ) so when the government "schools" or representatives ("teachers") fail, then the control ought to be taken away from the government correct? If not, then why not?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

First of all I have NEVER criticized home schoolers. I believe with very few exceptions people who even attempt home schooling are probably predisposed to the talent and ability to succeed. I have only said that I believe there is a vast population out there unwilling and/or unable to do it. Look at the low rate of adult literacy that has been noted in this very forum and tell me how those illiterate parents are going to teach children to read.

Here I shall humor you with your experiment. Your hypothisis above referred to home school so lets do it that way.
We have to assume that home schooling is how children are educated in this hypothetical culture. We further have to assume it is a deteriorating failing system or we cannot move forward with our experimet.
You assume incorrectly when you say I would then have the government seize control. If by that you mean we would pop up public schools all of a sudden.
The change cannot be quick. I would assume you take what you have and work on improvements. Either private institutions, churches, or (yes possibly even the government) could provide aid to partent struggling with thier children. Maybe set up places (I will avoid calling them schools) where professionals could come in and help out in problem areas. (and they would exist).

I WOULD NOT just rail against the home school system and downgrade it as nothing but failure. Since I am sure we both know that it would not be a complete failure. Millions of children would be doing very well. Just like there are millions of childeren who are doing very well in public schools.
(please before you get your panties in a bunch know that I agree the mojority are not doing well but it is foolish to say none are doing well. Just as it would be foolish to assume all would be failing in our hypothetical society.

I WOULD NOT just pop open a bunch of buildings and try to recruit non-existant teachers and tell parents...."You screwed it up so send the kids here." No more than I want to say to parents "School is out starting Monday. Teach your own kids from now on."

I would do whatever I could to support and improve what we had while we moved toward what we needed.

As I posted above. Fine, take down PS Schools as soon ans you have a realistic alternative in place. All I say is move toward this without making what we have in the meantime less effective with constant criticism and bombardment.

Now humor ME. Tell me what you do for a living and lets discuss the success and contributions of your profession for a while. You may even slap me down here if you are in the Military or a Police officer or (a fireman?) or in the medical profession. Somehow I get the impression you are not in what is referred to as a "helping" profession though.

Forgive typos please. In a bit of a hurry today.

M5

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Yep "Mild" and "in some small way". It is hard to believe the open-mindedness you profess at the end of your post.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I cited specific reasons and made very clear reasonable statements, only to be met with this very thinly veiled ad hominem instead of any reasoned response?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Look at the low rate of adult literacy that has been noted in this very forum and tell me how those illiterate parents are going to teach children to read.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

One of the problems of the government controlled and mandated "education" is that parents are not allowed alternatives, such as allowing grandparents, neighbors, retired professional instructors, etc to teach their children. Bureaucrats behind desks, and politicians presume their own omniscience in deciding what is best.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Sorry I guess I will have to use your adjectives regarding firemen. "Mild and "in some small ways". Never have heard much fireman bashing. (shrug)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

If firemen failed as miserably as government "teachers" routinely do, then they too would be criticized for failing to meet basic minimal standards, in other words they would be "bashed" as you call it. Of course, if firemen were failing at the same rate the evidence would be ever more undeniable than that of the government "teachers."

You claim that you do not see the propagandizing of government in the government schools. What of the voting rhetoric? What of the approval list of "Acceptable" books? Have you ever opened an accepted history text in government schools? When was the last time you saw a reasonable presentation of any situation in which the US government was involved?

BTW the question avoided was: "Out of curiosity, would you thank the propagandaists of a facists, or socialist regime for "teaching" your children that one group is better or more deserving than another?"


</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Here I shall humor you with your experiment. Your hypothisis above referred to home school so lets do it that way.
We have to assume that home schooling is how children are educated in this hypothetical culture.We further have to assume it is a deteriorating failing system or we cannot move forward with our experimet.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

What hypothetical culture?? I referred to no hypothetical culture. Why would we have to assume that home schooling was failing in a thought experiment which only asks if you would apply the very same standards in identical situations?

I never did see an answer to the question. Right now, given that government bureaucrats and politicians presume their own omniscience with regard to rearing other people's children, and since it appears that you approve of this behavior as a "solution" to perceived failures of specific parents, would you allow for a consistent application of the principle, such that when the government schools fail children, then the government would lose the priviledge of determining what is best for the education of that child?

No hypothetical culture. No garden paths lined with strawmen.. Just a simple question of consistent application of the rule.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Now humor ME. Tell me what you do for a living and lets discuss the success and contributions of your profession for a while. You may even slap me down here if you are in the Military or a Police officer or (a fireman?) or in the medical profession. Somehow I get the impression you are not in what is referred to as a "helping" profession though. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Well at least this red herring and ad hominem wannabe is not thinly veiled...

I have been an instructor in one of the nations largest universities, so I have walked a mile in those shoes.. Currently I do in fact help others but quite frankly my profession is irrelevent.

BTW you may want to take to heart something that Socrates said: Ideas are not our children, we ought not treat them as such.

If you do not like the criticisms of the failings of the government "teachers" then change the system, change those individuals so that the failings which are being noted and criticized are no longer there. There is nothing gained by shooting the messenger instead.

[JustinGilmore]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
which leaves one to ask, what will we get when the x'ers and y'ers are older? do you really think they will pay for the boomers' medicaid and social security when they know they won't have any for themselves? will they even care? education in school is nothing more than being programmed to serve the societal machine... happy slaves...

what are YOU going to do about it? nothing...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Nice post, I really love bias posts. :) Just Kidding.. but:

Yes. The american school system is not producing the best students that it can. Though I belive it's not really the school system at all. Considering the amount of money put into it via Govnt. American sociaty puts a great deal of emphasis in youth. It's to the point where today kids simply want to have fun wile they're younger, rather than looking ahead. Look at the big picture--can you blame them? Are you prepared to goto school from 7-4 just to work in a cubicle of some sort, in your near future. It's not the school system-it's not the kids, and it's not corrupt politics (heh, isn't that a first!). It's simply how sociaty is now, we've evolved for an enviroment that no longer exsits. People are paying off there college loans at about twenty years. That's working twenty years of your life to pay for school. You pay for school so you can pay the school back...there are many demoralizing factors, the student loan situation is just one.