Gender Feminists' Anti-Testosterone Bias

[Autolykos]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (syracusa,)
Naahhh....In good faith, I think you exaggerate.
See...the problem with accusing a certain part of "bias" is that it is never clear where the real 'CENTER' is.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Very true. It is all too hard to find the truth in this day and age.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Moreover, the part that has managed to implant its skewness/bias in society's consciousness for a very, very long time is the one that comes out sounding "truthful", even if "the truth" is not exactly with it.
Anything that deviates from that - sounds "biased".<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I'm sorry, but "society's consciousness"? Please. This is off-topic, but I personally reject the notion that "society" has anything remotely resembling a consciousness.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The only quick and delightfully easy to observe facts that come to mind when reading your post are:

1. Men still rule the world big time (in a very unsuccesful manner, for that manner - as it can very well be observed); so mind you, I see no male disadvantage here and no feminization of society whatsoever. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

My response is that it depends on what you mean by "rule." I think it's important to notice that in all primitive societies (to my knowledge), there are clearly-defined gender "roles." Males, being stronger, are normally the hunters, while the females are the "masters of the home," so to speak. That's not to say that I think gender roles should be public policy or any such thing, but it does point out that the traditionally evolved roles for men and women are based on their biological differences (yes, they do exist).

On another note, my father taught me from a young age that (and I quote) "women control the jewels." Of course, this is not always the case, as when women are beaten by their husbands. Such things are very tragic and wrong indeed, and are not a result of biology, but psychology (namely, the factors involved in the shaping of both personalities).

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
2. Many boys (socialized by sociopathic parents, most probably fathers obssessed with testosterone) continue to think it is OK to bully, hit, shove, ridicule...or even shoot - somebody/something that appears weak(er).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Perhaps I am wrong here, but I fail to see how testosterone per se is necessarily linked to sociopathy. In addition, I see bullying as mostly a childish activity best explained by the statement "kids are cruel." That is, children often fail to understand and empathize with others around them (although I have read -- can't remember where -- that young children can be very empathic) -- they fail to put themselves in the other's shoes, as it were. However, it is safe to say that males are generally more physically violent than females.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
3. Society continues to be ruled by mass hysteria when it comes to male-oriented sporting events. I do not know of anything similar targeting women.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

"Mass hysteria"? Please. While sporting events can get out of hand, normally it's just good fun. I don't see anything wrong with supporting a team and cheering when they do well. One could draw parallels between male sporting events and female "gossip clubs" ...

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
3. Prisons are still filled with males (the majority of criminals, rapists and thieves (including Enron-type) continue to be males). I know...old arguments...but very telling.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Telling about... what? All that tells me is that males, again, are the more physically violent gender. And as we all should know, most crimes involve physical activity.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
4. The majority of resources and property (which are very good for keeping others in check) continue to be had by men.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

"Keeping others in check"? I'm sorry but wealth is definitely *not* a zero-sum game. Do you really think that men in business think to themselves "I want to make more money so that others will have less"? If so, you are sadly mistaken.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
5. Any society on the face of this Earth can benefit from less AGRESSIVITY(traditionally associated with the male...not that the female would be incapable of displaying that) and from more COOPERATION AND EMPATHY (traditionally associated with the female...not that a male would be incapable of that either).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Every society develops a code of behavior, however formal/informal it may be. Plato's Republic gives an excellent description of the alternative (Book 1, I believe, for those interested). This code is generally designed to minimize wanton violence.

Concerning competition vs. cooperation, it seems to me that people are most competitive (as in working against each other) when it comes to selecting mates. This should come as no surprise -- rather, it's surprising that the competition is not worse, as is the case in the rest of the animal kingdom. Men and women, alike, are most aggressive when competing over one of the scarcest resources of all -- each other. Indeed, one could say that most (if not all) of the violence in human history does not somehow relate to sex.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Chill. The feminization of society is a myth used by power-hungry men and their brainwashed women to maintain the enormous imbalance of power that has existed between sexes for ages.
Something that is just purely and essentially WRONG.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

"Power"... are you aware that power comes in many, many forms? Why do you think that men are hungry for power? I'm sure there are lots of reasons, but normally one wants power only when someone wants to do something with it. For example, money is a form of power. I desire money to buy groceries at the store, among other things -- so I really desire the groceries more than the money itself. But the money is the means to which I can accomplish the desired end, obtaining the groceries.

I disagree with any legislative barriers to opportunity -- in either direction. However, I think that private organizations should be allowed to have whatever kind of internal rules as they want. That in mind, let it be known that the free market punishes discrimination and rewards inclusion.

- Rob

[Anniee]

As humorless as the feminists...well I don't happen to think it's funny to see a cartoon drawing of a little boy with rocks flying towards his head that says, "Boys are stupid, Throw Rocks at them." (There are many others just as bad.) Would you think it's funny to see a shirt with a girl or woman on it that says "Girls suck. Rape them!" or "Women stink. Shoot them!" ? No? I don't either. I don't think that's funny either way. And none of them are appropriate to put on children. The David and Goliath site shows the "stupid factory" where boys are made, and the little girl blows up the building to leave him buried head down in the mud with his pants off. Then you can play the game where you pelt rocks at the boy behind the fence and watch as they bloody his head and knock him senseless. Hit him enough times and you win. HA HA HA! Boy, what a laff riot. I tell you, I think we should make more of those and make some touting violence against girls too. Pfft.

As to the rest, been there done that too many times. Thanks anyway; suffice it to say all those myths have been debunked so many times it's not worth going over again here.

[Anniee]

Btw autolykos, I loved Who Stole Feminism (though The War Against Boys was more interesting to me.) Have you read Heterophobia? Or the Myth of Male Power by Warren Farrell?

You should read that last one syracuse.

[castille]

Fight back by encouraging girls to read Teen or Seventeen magazines.

Soon they'll be shopping and giggling again.

[syracusa]

Yeap...I agree Castille, that'll do it. :)

I don't know who the message "moan moan moan" is directed at, but I see this every time a man just shares an experience or gives his POV on misandry and anti male bias. When the negative retorts of "whiner" and such are returned with the suggestion that "Men should get their own damned movement and get off their arse" is not at all a piece of sound of advice, the message is disingenuous to say the least, and I usually give the provider of such nuggets of intellectual wonder the black flag and ignore them. At least not take them seriously, anyway.

[Anniee]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (URnotmeRU,)
I don't know who the message "moan moan moan" is directed at, but I see this every time a man just shares an experience or gives his POV on misandry and anti male bias. When the negative retorts of "whiner" and such are returned with the suggestion that "Men should get their own damned movement and get off their arse" is not at all a piece of sound of advice, the message is disingenuous to say the least, and I usually give the provider of such nuggets of intellectual wonder the black flag and ignore them. At least not take them seriously, anyway.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Yep. It's disgraceful.

[G. Adams]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Anniee,)
Great suggestion putting out windows. Anyway, if you're suggesting that men are not taking to the streets in protest against discrimination in divorce and custody law, for example you're wrong. They are. They're fighting tooth and nail against the legal discrimination they're facing, and against having their children ripped from them. We don't hear about it very much in the mainstream media, because they think like you do; you have to visit men's news sites to hear about it. Over the past year Glenn Sacks has spearheaded a campaign to protest David and Goliath T-Shirts, made for little girls, which carry violent and hateful messages towards little boys - but no such messages about girls. Stores all over the continent have pulled the shirts from their shelves, from Macy's to Bloomingdales. At Christmas a big group of divorced fathers in England donned Father Christmas suits and demonstrated in the public square against the unfair divorce and custody laws. Activists are trying to get the VAWA (the 5 billion dollar law to help only women who are victims of violence, despite the fact that men suffer far more violent crimes) to distribute the money more equally - to open shelters for abused men (who comprise about 40 percent of DV victims, by the way.)

And every time they talk about what they're doing, talk about the discrimination they are facing, share their stories or discuss the legal discrimination they are facing, they have people telling them they're a bunch of pansy crybabies who should shut up and take it like a man.

Well, nice work.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I know well about the child custody problem, we had a guy in spiderman suit climb to the top of a crane and protest for ages to get the problem noticed.

In regards to to being told to stop crying, as I said earlier, they should organise themselves properly and make themselves heard. If the media arn't listening, force them to, it's really not hard if the cause is worthy.

[Anniee]

And I suppose in spite of the fact that they ARE doing so, they aren't allowed to, you know, like TALK about it otherwise? Because it's "whining" and "crying" for them to discuss it on message forums? Or do you think feminists were (or are) silent except when they're on the streets in organized marches? They don't need to like, DISCUSS the stuff or raise awareness to the facts of what's going on, right?

What a load of bullshit.

[castille]

Well, men SHOULD take action.

Put all your money in a trust under your dad's name, so that when your wife divorces you, she won't get much.

[Automatic Nate]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Anniee,)
As humorless as the feminists... Boy, what a laff riot. I tell you, I think we should make more of those and make some touting violence against girls too. Pfft.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
I wonder where jokes that align an equality movement (constituted of history's most frequent victims of physical violence) with National Socialism rank on the "touting violence" hierarchy...

[Anniee]

Well after reading that about 5 times I think I know what you were saying. You're referring to "feminazi" (a term I didn't use) right? And claiming that women are the most frequent victims of violence?

Here's a small project for you. Go to the Department of Justice statistics. See who are the most frequent victims of violent crime. By FAR.

That should get you started. When you're done with that I have 30 years of research by the foremost domestic violence researchers as to the rates of DV broken down by gender. AND including child abuse (guess who does it most?) After that, SPR (Stop Prison Rape) wants to have a word with you about who are the most frequent victims of rape in the US - about ten - twenty TIMES more than the other. Then we can get started on your notion of equality and just exactly WHO is fighting for it, and who is blowing smoke up our asses.

After that we might be able to have a discussion. Except you equate the use of a pejorative with violence, so maybe not. See, that's the same type of shit feminist groups do, even referring to internet trolling as "rape." So maybe there's nothing to talk about. I wouldn't want to be VIOLENT by talking with you, after all <rolleyes>.

[Automatic Nate]

I'm sorry. I thought you were griping about T-shirts. I didn't know you were talking about violence. And as far as "equating" things, please point out in my (apparently obtuse) post the point at which I "equated" anything with anything else. I'll apparently have to be careful with my syntax--sensitive people in here.

[Atomica]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (syracusa,)
Granted that you are all very conservative men here, age-old gross biases, untruths and injusticeS ARE absolute TRUTHS and RIGHTEOUSNESS in your minds simply becauSe it has been like this for a long time.

Your replies are perversly biased and sound desperate in the face of crude, empirical, measurable reality. They sound as desperate and bitter as the angry protests of a power-hungry individual about to lose some of that power.
I cannot reply to your replies because we wouldn't get anywhere. What you said is absolute perversion of anything remotely related to reality.

Just two more things:

1. The only time I see women displaying their "agression" towards each other(apologies for the word "agressivity", English is not my native tongue) is when they buy into the ideology that the other women are potential enemies in their constant competition for men. Men don't seem to do that because they don't have to. Remind a woman about her biological clock and how awful it will be if she doesn't find a man, and you have her all ready to fight tooth and nail for it.
This state of mind of SOME women (which is more prevalent in some cultures compared to others) generally fits well with men.
Divide ed impera. It works.
Women are not inherently agressive. Once competition for men is out of the picture and once they understand that their life's most precious goal is NOT necessarily to beat the other women at securing a man for themselves- then their agression towards each other usually goes away.
They like to talk a lot with each other and relate to each other - and this very fact unites them rather than putting them in competition. Guys (American guys) cannot claim that.
"Bonding" over a touch-down or becoming "allies" in a war does little in the way of producing true empathy and understanding between individuals.

2. I said it before and I say it again. If it trully is "testosterone" that makes SOME guys act and think like you presented it here - then I delight in the knowledge that the same testosterone will drive you to jump off a plane some day (or something similarly stupid and insane which passes for "masculinity" in some people's minds) and thus exterminate yourselves earlier.

Survival of the smartest, right?
If testosteron=masculinity and masculinity=agression then masculinity=stupidity.
Thank God for the less "manly" men of the world! They seem to be the ones who survive and survive well; and the ones that get laid H*** of a lot more than the "testosteronish", "apeish" ones do.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. As usual you reject the truth because it doesn't jibe with your beliefs.
Sorry, Syracussr, but your lying liberal sayso don't make it so. Evidently CNN, NPR, PBS, The New Republic, and Ms Magazine have done a great job of brainwashing you.
You refuse to acknowledge that men are being attacked for no good reason whatsoever, you have this hateful attitude toward men that is extremely unhealthy, you seem to think that men are unqualified to do ANYTHING in life because they happen to have a "Y" chromosome or they have descended testes.
The problem with you is you evidently have shown just how closed your mind is to the truth.
Here is a look at Syracussr's methodology of dealing with men:
1) If a liberal says something negative about men then it must be true and women must run with it.
2) If a man is promoted over a woman for ANY reason it is sexism.
3) If a man defeats a woman in an argument he is a sexist pig.
Looks like your argument has been disproven and discredited as lying liberal sayso.
Go run along. I think Shitlery Rotten Clinton is speaking now.

[DarkRose33]

"If testosteron=masculinity and masculinity=agression then masculinity=stupidity. Thank God for the less "manly" men of the world! They seem to be the ones who survive and survive well; and the ones that get laid H*** of a lot more than the "testosteronish", "apeish" ones do."

Um....excuse me? There is nothing I hate more than a metrosexual...where have all the real men gone? I am having the worst time finding a guy that I can not beat the crap out of!!! There is a difference between an unthinking "ape" and a man who understands his agression and uses it as it is ment to be used. I love men who know their "manly" side...they are so great!! I think most of the women in this forum have only known agressive boys and never had any kind of meeting with a real dominant male...its a very refreshing expierience. They are leaders because that is what they feel is right. Men should respect and cherish what women are...which is getting harder and harder for them to do now because they are being forced to look at women as they would other men. I WANT to be that mans home and hearth. Not to say I'm a girly girl (I played football in Highschool) I am a strong woman and I believe in equality. But I also respect men for their strengths and I love them for it. Let men be men...they are beautifull.

[Impenitent]

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok..."

a great sketch actually...

http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/p...lumberjack.html

[MASTERPEEVE]

"They are leaders because that is what they feel is right. Men should respect and cherish what women are...which is getting harder and harder for them to do now because they are being forced to look at women as they would other men. I WANT to be that mans home and hearth. Not to say I'm a girly girl (I played football in Highschool) I am a strong woman and I believe in equality. But I also respect men for their strengths and I love them for it. Let men be men...they are beautifull"

Please bear with me, as I will now attempt to explain what I believe a "man" really is:

A real man respects and cherishes women. You couldn't be more right. A real man, I've come to realize (I certainly didn't learn it from my father) does what he is supposed to do, and that's provide and protect. In my opinion, if a man cannot provide for his loved ones or protect who he loves, he SHOULD feel like less of a man. If he is a burden to others he should feel some sort of guilt. Also, call me "sexist" if you will, but there are reasons a man might feel inadequate or inferior if his wife makes more than he does or if he gets beaten in a physical endeavor by a person he is supposed to be protecting (i.e. his girlfriend/wife). Scientific studies have shown that, while women tend to be emotionally smarter, men tend to be physically stronger on the average.

The whole point, genetically, socially, and culturally, through the ages from the Hunter/Gatherer times to present, of being competitive and aggressive was to ensure survival. Does this mean that ALL or even MOST women are inferior to men physically? Of course not. Does this mean that women SHOULDN'T take home more money from the job than their husbands? Definitely not. I'm simply explaining why a man might feel distressed in certain given situations. Physicality and the ability to be successful in "the hunt" have been with us as men for thousands of years. It cannot be simply turned off like a switch.

That being said, aggression for aggression's sake is not manly. Courage is not Foolishness, which is the lack of fear, but it is the ability to continue and finish one's duty, DESPITE fear. Despite the feelings some men may experience, it is ACTION that is important. It is only through action that we may realize intent.

Lastly, Reason is just as important to a man as testosterone. A man who knows his own weaknesses and is willing to be honest about them with himself and others is strong. Conversely, a man who complains about his weaknesses to others in order to get support is thought to be weak, as is a man who must dominate others physically (or mentally) in order to feel adequate in his own eyes. A real man respects and loves his wife and his friends, and acts as such. He also respects his rival, because it is through conflict with his rival that he remains strong.

This is what I believe. Perhaps it's what others on this board believe as well, but cannot voice it because you'll look like a chauvanistic idiot. If I am, so be it: I'd rather be an idiot that's true to himself than a smart, enlightened fraud.
-Chris