Question for Pro Lifers

[kingjust]

What does that even mean? How is a body a choice? Do unborn babies have no rights to a "choice"? I mean, it's their body...sooo isn't it also "a choice"?

Lou, are you serious? She meant it is her body, so she and only she has the choice to do what she wants, period. Stop being ignorant to the fact. And no, honestly, the baby doesn't have a choice. It is dependent on it's mother and the mother can decides what happens to it wether it lives or die. It sounds fucked up, but hey, who are you and I to intrude into her decision of the child when you're not even going to have anything to do with the child after it is born, if she ends up having one.

Lou, let's say that you love piercings, and I don't. Is it right for me to make you stop getting piercings because I don't like it? How about the government? It's your body, right? Who am I to tell you what to do with your body. Now I know your going to say, but there isn't a fetus involved. Until completely seperated from the mother, it is dependent on the mother, not the prolifers, not the government, but the mother. So, choice, is a big deal with women, let it be in the womans hands, because if the make the wrong choice, will you be their to grieve with them, no, I don't really think so.

[kingjust]

Quote by: Lou Minotti The choice to what? Make babies and promply destroy them so we can "put the money towards better things" like public school/government training centers that teach this degenerate crap in the first place? No thanks.

I never knew the government and schools teach abortion. Where the hell do you live. Secondly, it is their choice right. Not yours, so mind your damn business.

If their was a homeless child in an alley and a woman about to get an abortion, and you can only do one good thing, what would you do. Would you help the child, or try to stop the woman from "choosing" to abort her fetus?

[kingjust]

Quote by: Gorgo If you wish to transfer the fetus to your womb, then you have a good case. However, if it's inside my daughter's womb, stay out of her body. There is no reason not to allow women to end their pregnancies in the first six months. Call fetuses humans, call them basketball players, I don't care. Unless you solve some other problems like health care, poverty, poor education, etc., I don't want to hear anything about murder. Stop killing children in Iraq, stop poverty, etc., and then come to me about how you're going to call abortion murder. You want to make contraception and contraception education free in order to minimize abortions? Great. You want to offer subsidies for woman to have babies, and raise and educate them and take care of them? Wonderful. Otherwise, I don't care how many abortions anyone has. As I said before, the worst thing about abortions is that it is a major medical procedure which should not be taken lightly. If it weren't for that, they should be available on every street corner to anyone that wants one.

Agreed.

[kingjust]

Quote by: syracusa I am currently pregnant (13 weeks). I will soon undergo Down Syndrome/Trysomy/neural tube tests. Some women on the pregnancy forum I visit have a hissy fit when others suggest that they may terminate if the amnio says things are wrong. They are so zealout about what others should do with their lives they make me puke. So how do you see this one, smart debaters?...

Well, it boils down to what "you" are going to do. Raise the child with down syndrome or the other. I can't say what to do because I do not have any kids with down syndrome. Either way, say to the zealots, are you going to help me raise my child with down syndrome, no,... well then, mind your fucking business. That's what I would say.

[syracusa]

Quote by: kingjust Well, it boils down to what "you" are going to do. Raise the child with down syndrome or the other. I can't say what to do because I do not have any kids with down syndrome. Either way, say to the zealots, are you going to help me raise my child with down syndrome, no,... well then, mind your fucking business. That's what I would say.

Exactly.

I certainly hope all tests will look just fine - but I am still outraged at how some women get attcked for contemplating termination if their tests turn out bad. One woman on the forum I visit got such virulent attacks over this - some of her tests showed potential risks and she was now thinking whether to go for the amniocentesis which tells you "black" or "white".

The nerve that these so-called "pro-lifers" have is unimaginable to me. I'd be willing to start a literal WAR against them if I could. Yeah, that kind - with bombs and shit.

As for the fetus having "a choice" and "a voice" ...as a pregnant woman I am pleased to announce that no, at this point, my baby has neither a choice nor a voice. And neither do I or him/her need the pro-lifers to volunteer one for him/her.
I AM his/her voice at this stage because I am also providing the placenta, the energy, the okygen, the breathing, the everything. Sorry to put it this way, but I am pretty much his/her indirect God on Earth right now. He/she lives and breathes because God wants ME to live and breathe.

Don't get me wrong, this is a very much wanted and very much beloved fetus; but if I knew it had some horrible birth defect - yes, I would terminate exactly because I would want to spare this little life as well as ours, as parents, of perpetual misery.

Nobody deserves to live a lesser life.

[Lou Minotti]

Baby's are the equivalent of "body piercing". You people are sick. Dehumanization at it's finest.

[Gorgo]

Abortion is much more dangerous and invasive and expensive than body piercings.

[Lou Minotti]

If their was a homeless child in an alley and a woman about to get an abortion, and you can only do one good thing, what would you do. Would you help the child, or try to stop the woman from "choosing" to abort her fetus?

What is this, third grade? If zombies were attacking your city and you could only save your mom or your dad, who would you choose?

[syracusa]

Quote by: Lou Minotti Baby's are the equivalent of "body piercing". You people are sick. Dehumanization at it's finest.

Nah-ha. YOU, people are sick - when you believe that saving an already born, conscient, starving, struggling child is less important than making sure a currently unconscient, unsocialized form of life gets his/her butt here, under ANY circumstances, no matter how dire; and then, if asked to take responsibility for that form of life that you want so badly to get here, you pass it onto the parent yelling "individual responsibility".

Could it be that you just need a larger, vulnerable, desperate labor force for the future masters?

It is YOUR priorities that are sick, not ours - and they only go to show the conservative mind for what it really is and what it has always been, ever since Christ and well before:
a LOVER OF DOGMAS and RIGID RULES, not a lover of humanity and human beings.
Don't kid yourself at night - you know very well who you are!

If you want to convince me otherwise, please let me know when you decide to take in your care and provide for the unwanted child of a poor, desperate person or the child with a birth defect.

The most abhorent thing about the dogmatic conservatives is their infinite hypocrisy and the virulence with which they adore to shove their dogmas onto EVERYONE'S throats.

If I don't force you to abort your Down-syndrome child or a child you would be incapable of providing for - please take your dirty paws off of my choices too!!

[Lou Minotti]

Nah-ha. YOU, people are sick - when you believe that saving an already born, conscient, starving, struggling child is less important than making sure a currently unconscient, unsocialized form of life gets his/her butt here, under ANY circumstances

You have no idea what I believe beyond what I've posted. You are good at assuming you do and setting up straw men, though...

[MerlinsByte]

Everyone why not just strip the emotional baggage of this and expose the naked question for what it is.

The only question should be. WHEN IS THE CELL / FETUS HUMAN? After this is determined all other augment is moot, and void.

This is not a religious quagmire, or a moralistic nightmare, this is basic human rights. Either you are a cold sob or you respect all human life, which is it?

mb

[Gorgo]

The question for some seems to be, not what is best for humans, but how can I put religion into this and make it sound logical?

There is no black and white yes or no answer here. The question is, how do we make life as good as possible for the greatest number of humans, with the realization that we need to be concerned about the rest of the planet as well. Why? Because we are humans and we'd like to live as long and as happily as possible. Not because some mythical Jesus says so, but because that's what we'd like. That is the goal. No other goal makes much sense to me.

In order to reach that goal, with limited understanding and ability, we have to make choices. We kill insects and bacteria to limit disease. We kill plants and animals to eat. We imprison (domesticate) animals for our own enjoyment. We restrain people and animals that might be dangerous to humans or our property.

Some of these things become distasteful to people who wish everything was peaceful all the time.

Abortion is one of the choices that we've made available. It is a major medical procedure. Some find it distasteful for logical reasons. Something that can be (remotely) labeled "human" is being treated as something that can be discarded. I understand that. However, lines have to be drawn. A reasonable line is pre-birth, or even the end of the second trimester.

[kingjust]

Quote by: Lou Minotti Baby's are the equivalent of "body piercing". You people are sick. Dehumanization at it's finest.

Not equivalent, it was just a scenario to see how you would feel if people told you what to do with your body. But since you didn't have enough integrity to answer honestly, then I command that you behead yourself. LOL What a close minded fool!! NO PUN BABY NO PUN

[Lou Minotti]

How am I "closed-minded"? For not having taken the bait laid out by Whoopi Goldberg and Rosie O'Donnell? Babies and body piercings are cannot be compared. This isn't the 4th grade.

[kingjust]

Quote by: Lou Minotti What is this, third grade? If zombies were attacking your city and you could only save your mom or your dad, who would you choose?

You know what just stop posting, if you can't entertain a question just for the sake of trying to understand your views, then get the fuck out.

The question was meant to see what your frame of thought is when it comes to what important to society. Protecting those who are already here, or imposing your "belief" onto someone that you have no right or business with. Step up or shut the fuck up, thank you.

[kingjust]

Quote by: Lou Minotti You have no idea what I believe beyond what I've posted. You are good at assuming you do and setting up straw men, though...

First off, you called us sick and you don't even know us, hypocrite. Check yourself, answer some of the questions with honesty and integrity. Even if you say that you would rather stop an abortion then save a starving child, I would still have respect for you. But you avoid simple but serious questions that make me question you, or ASSUME. So please quit these simple minded postings answer some questions, if not, I will turn your house into an abortion clinic, JK . But seriously, I know you can come off better than what you have, I have seen some of your post before, but right now, you're the 3rd grader not willing to answer simple questions.

[kingjust]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Everyone why not just strip the emotional baggage of this and expose the naked question for what it is. The only question should be. WHEN IS THE CELL / FETUS HUMAN? After this is determined all other augment is moot, and void. This is not a religious quagmire, or a moralistic nightmare, this is basic human rights. Either you are a cold sob or you respect all human life, which is it? mb

Actually MB, I think there is one more question, the choice. Because once we determine when the cell/fetus is human, when will the madness of people imposing their "put in your own word(s) here" stop, trying the take away the simple right of choice, right or wrong? And I agree it is not religious, but it's those who are (zealots) who are doing the most protesting, IMO. MB, I think that is kind of harsh to say cold sob, when a mothers life is endangered by the preganancy, is she a cold sob for doing what "SHE THINKS" is right, to have a baby another day, when it is not going to affect her life (or death)?

[kingjust]

Quote by: Gorgo The question for some seems to be, not what is best for humans, but how can I put religion into this and make it sound logical? There is no black and white yes or no answer here. The question is, how do we make life as good as possible for the greatest number of humans, with the realization that we need to be concerned about the rest of the planet as well. Why? Because we are humans and we'd like to live as long and as happily as possible. Not because some mythical Jesus says so, but because that's what we'd like. That is the goal. No other goal makes much sense to me. In order to reach that goal, with limited understanding and ability, we have to make choices. We kill insects and bacteria to limit disease. We kill plants and animals to eat. We imprison (domesticate) animals for our own enjoyment. We restrain people and animals that might be dangerous to humans or our property. Some of these things become distasteful to people who wish everything was peaceful all the time. Abortion is one of the choices that we've made available. It is a major medical procedure. Some find it distasteful for logical reasons. Something that can be (remotely) labeled "human" is being treated as something that can be discarded. I understand that. However, lines have to be drawn. A reasonable line is pre-birth, or even the end of the second trimester.

Reading my mind G, reading my mind. So my question to you is, like my original post, is the womans (or couples, inevitably the womans though) choice hers or for others to choose for her. And if it is the others, which I think that you will not choose, is that right?

[kingjust]

Quote by: Lou Minotti How am I "closed-minded"? For not having taken the bait laid out by Whoopi Goldberg and Rosie O'Donnell? Babies and body piercings are cannot be compared. This isn't the 4th grade.

Because you have a one track mind in which you think that women do not have or should not have a choice during their preganancy, and government with the rest of the society of zealots should choose for her, because "THEY" think they know what is right. That is why I called you close minded. I hope I am wrong though. And the bait was to find out, like I stated, your frame of thought, that is all.

[Lou Minotti]

First off, you called us sick and you don't even know us, hypocrite

But that was based on what you posted, not what I assumed about you. That's the difference. I used to be "pro choice". I thought Bill HIcks' railing against "prolifers" was funny. Now, I do not. Abortions are going to happen no matter what. I am not going to waste my time trying to stop them with force. I have bigger fish to fry, IE, a criminally corrupted economy that in effect, creates the conditions that create poverty, war and suffering (and yes, abortions).

But I still think the amount of abortions that happen on a daily basis are disgusting. I think our society has become so dehumanized and decadent, sometimes I wonder why I care or even try. And you know what? Sometimes people's justification for abortion sounds awfully like other people's justification for war. VERY similiar.

I actually despise this issue. I think it drives a wedge between thinking people.