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culebrero · Jan 29, 2004, 05:03 pm

. . . to the coerced bending over and butt-slapping of young women by male school principals? See open letter below.

Kim Gandy, President
National Organization for Women
733 15th St. NW, 2nd floor
Washington, D.C. 20005
February 1, 2002

Dear Ms. Gandy:

Please consider two hypothetical scenarios: 1) A male employer informs a 25-year-old female employee that she will not be considered for promotion unless she allows him to massage her buttocks. 2) A male school principal informs a 15-year-old schoolgirl that she will be suspended from classes for the next three days, therefore receiving zero grades on all missed tests and assignments, unless she submits to his spanking her on the buttocks with a wooden board. What are the essential differences between these two cases? Which of the two would you consider to be a more egregious violation of a defenseless victim? If you had to choose, which victim is in more urgent need of protection?

Bear in mind that the beating is more painful and more dangerous than the massage, that the schoolgirl is probably more dependent on the adults in her world and less resourceful in defending her own interests, and that the psychological consequences to her are more apt to be long-term, setting her up for future victimization by other presumed authority figures, e.g., boyfriend, husband, employer—anyone with the power to demand her compliance and to hurt her if she resists. At this time, thanks largely to the efforts of such organizations as yours, nowhere in the U.S. are employers legally permitted to demand sexual favors in exchange for job security or advancement. In the public school systems of 23 states, however, thinly disguised sexual favors can be, and are being, coerced from students with impunity. According to the most conservative estimates, legal beatings of schoolchildren number about 1/3 million incidents per year, and many of those beatings are inflicted by adult males on underage females (though even 18-year-old women are not exempt from being paddled). It is often with threats to these girls’ academic standing—and by extension, their prospects for college admission—that these men prevail on them to “assume the position.”

The purpose here is not to make a moral distinction between the mistreatment of girls and that of boys. We consider any deliberate aversive stimulation to the pelvic area of a non-consenting, underage person, irrespective of gender, to be a sexual violation.

The purpose is rather to present the issue in terms of your particular mission: the protection of women. Ironically and tragically, to date no major women’s rights advocacy group that we are aware of has addressed this issue (excepting a 1992 resolution by the Florida chapter of NOW and a story published in Women’s Enews last September). It seems clear to us that one way—arguably the best way—to empower grown women would be to stop systematically disempowering young girls. That could be achieved with relative ease and speed. Virtually every other advanced nation, and more than a few developing nations, have already given schoolchildren statutory protection from disciplinary beatings. Ten European nations and Israel have now extended that protection to children in their homes. Posted on our Web site is “Rape: Lesson No. 1,” a young woman’s account of her experience with corporal punishment while a student at a Florida public high school. It speaks eloquently to this issue and should be read by everyone concerned about violence against women. You may read and make copies of that document at www.nospank.net/s-rape.htm. You can also see typical paddling-related injuries at www.nospank.net/whacked3.htm.

In closing, we invite you to share this letter with board members, staff and the membership of your organization. We hope that you will decide that now is the time to protect schoolgirls from sexual violence disguised as discipline. To ignore their plight is to do a gross disservice to all women and to all society. Please keep us apprised of your plans in this regard. You may count on our cooperation in every way.

Sincerely,

Jordan Riak, Executive Director
Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education (PTAVE)
P.O. Box 1033
Alamo, CA 94507-7033
Tel.: (925) 831-1661
E-mail: riak@nospank.net
Web site: "Project NoSpank" at www.nospank.net

**Pooeypants** · Jan 29, 2004, 06:14 pm

Isn't this a difference between discrimination and Discipline?

G. Adams · Jan 29, 2004, 09:33 pm

WTF?? How could this go on these days? I know I grew up in a rough area but if any teacher took any such action, hell even a clip, would result in the teacher taking a serious beating from the kids.

Of course thats not the point of the post, but thats what struck me first.

Feminists don't turn a blind eye. Organisations can get mixed up with themselves, beginning as radicals and turning conservative the moment they consolidate. My sister is an arch feminist (no not feminazi castille) and she'd be appalled on point of a teacher violation trust, corporal punishment and sexual abuse.

So please, save the generalisations for the bar.

culebrero · Jan 29, 2004, 10:49 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,)
Isn't this a difference between discrimination and Discipline?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Sorry, I don't follow you.

culebrero · Jan 29, 2004, 10:54 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

Feminists don't turn a blind eye. Organisations can get mixed up with themselves, beginning as radicals and turning conservative the moment they consolidate. My sister is an arch feminist (no not feminazi castille) and she'd be appalled on point of a teacher violation trust, corporal punishment and sexual abuse.

So please, save the generalisations for the bar.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Then it's too bad your sister's not in charge of NOW. Maybe then they'd have something to say about this.

I should note that Florida NOW and Women's Enews would be exceptions to the generalization I made.

G. Adams · Jan 29, 2004, 11:09 pm

Well as NOW do not represent all Feminists, which would have to be the case if your title was correct, please don't reflect the actions of this group upon al feminists.

culebrero · Jan 30, 2004, 03:36 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
Well as NOW do not represent all Feminists, which would have to be the case if your title was correct, please don't reflect the actions of this group upon al feminists.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

OK, are there other feminist groups or individuals who have in fact addressed the situation, that in 22 states young women are obliged to submit to spankings from male principals?

fedfem · Jan 30, 2004, 08:30 am

I must be missing something. Where does this show feminists turning a blind eye?

As far as the issue, I would think since the girls are minors, the parents would be the first stop in ending the practice. I know this type of punishment is no longer allowed in schools and social workers would be all over the school in most states. I will research the matter a bit and post what I find.

I attended private school(many years ago)and yes, I got the paddle myself. I know they no longer use it. The practice was ended over 20 years ago.

Man Against Time · Jan 30, 2004, 12:24 pm

I dont care how loud a feminist yells in my face, if I had the legal power to demand the compliance of a bent-over 16 year old school girl in those hot uniforms...I dont think I'd fast yield it.

culebrero · Jan 31, 2004, 04:37 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,)
I must be missing something. Where does this show feminists turning a blind eye? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>Well, how else should we characterize their failure (with a few exceptions) to acknowledge this practice?<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,)
As far as the issue, I would think since the girls are minors, the parents would be the first stop in ending the practice.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Parents who fight the practice generally have an uphill battle. School officials circle the wagons, authorities decline to bring charges, their child may face reprisals at school for "making waves," and the courts have not been sympathetic. There may even be state laws immunizing the schools from liability (e.g., Alabama and Texas). And sadly, some parents don't care if their daughters are being spanked at school--maybe even approve of it.

It should also be noted, however, that these girls are not always minors. Upper class students as old as 18 or 19 are not exempt from paddling.<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,)
I know this type of punishment is no longer allowed in schools and social workers would be all over the school in most states.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Paddling remains legal in 22 states. Teachers frequently get away with levels of brutality to kids that parents would be thrown in jail for.

Man Against Time · Jan 31, 2004, 08:39 am

Ok, now youre getting stupid. If you are saying its sort of warped and sexual, well, yes. As testimony to that you can cite the fact that most of us would get an erection if presented with the ready haunches of a high school girl in those little skirts and knee-high socks. I dont think anyone with a penis is going to argue that point.

But Brutal? Comeon dude, grow up. There is no BRUTALITY in some slaps with a board on the ass. Stop exaggerating.

And dont reply with, "How would you like it if..." or, "How come parents cant..." or any other stupid emotionally charged bullshit. You know damn well you cannot present an objective case for a slap on the ass as being Brutal.

fedfem · Jan 31, 2004, 10:04 am

CULEBRERO:
"Parents who fight the practice generally have an uphill battle. School officials circle the wagons, authorities decline to bring charges, their child may face reprisals at school for "making waves," and the courts have not been sympathetic. There may even be state laws immunizing the schools from liability (e.g., Alabama and Texas). And sadly, some parents don't care if their daughters are being spanked at school--maybe even approve of it."

Here in New England, parents have a lot of power in the schools. Our PTA's are quite active and I can't even imagine a teacher or a school admin dictating to us. As far as some states allowing it...the weird things going on lately like taking evolution out of the classroom, raids by police, etc...

That said, this is something that citizens need to address, male, female etc.

I read the site posted above and it does sound like a much bigger problem than I was ever aware of. This needs to be approached state by state.

As I said before, I too was a victim of the paddle but never thought of it in the terms presented until I read some of the information on the website. I know now where certain fetishes have come from now.

castille · Jan 31, 2004, 11:15 am

We still have this punishment today. When I was in primary school I got into a fight with another kid and we ended up getting the stick. Then I got it again for not finishing my homework, so painful I can still remember it heh!

And it isnt reserved for women (unless its a porno), both guys and girls get it too. In fact more guys get beaten than girls.

I dont see anything wrong with it. You do something wrong, you take the punishment. Just dont get caught next time and you wont get punished. If you couldnt stand it (cry for a guy, or run away) then you'd be a bit of a wimp wouldnt yuou?

culebrero · Jan 31, 2004, 02:33 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time,)
Ok, now youre getting stupid. If you are saying its sort of warped and sexual, well, yes. As testimony to that you can cite the fact that most of us would get an erection if presented with the ready haunches of a high school girl in those little skirts and knee-high socks. I dont think anyone with a penis is going to argue that point.

But Brutal? Comeon dude, grow up. There is no BRUTALITY in some slaps with a board on the ass. Stop exaggerating.

And dont reply with, "How would you like it if..." or, "How come parents cant..." or any other stupid emotionally charged bullshit. You know damn well you cannot present an objective case for a slap on the ass as being Brutal.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>I'm not sure by what standard "some slaps with a board on the ass" fails to qualify as brutal (especially if you're not interchanging it with merely "a slap on the ass"). You might at least want to qualify your statement after seeing some of the paddling-related bruises on this page.

One objective fact to consider (though it's not often available for measurement) is the degree of skin inflammation that results immediately from a paddling, whether or not bruises later form. Then consider how much water at how high a temperature it would take to achieve similar results.

Does inflammation from spanking correlate less sharply to pain intensity than inflammation from scalding? Would scalding someone's ass not be "brutal" in your book?

There's nothing bullshit at all about asking people to put themselves in the position of a victim or their family--and certainly not about asking why there's a double standard allowing teachers to do to kids what their parents can't. If that's too emotionally charged for you, maybe you should stick to debating less emotionally charged practices.

culebrero · Jan 31, 2004, 02:51 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
I dont see anything wrong with it. You do something wrong, you take the punishment. Just dont get caught next time and you wont get punished. If you couldnt stand it (cry for a guy, or run away) then you'd be a bit of a wimp wouldnt yuou?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>So would you be OK with a boss using a paddle to discipline employees? Or with the judicial system using it for speeders or tax cheats? If not, what would be your (manly) objection?

Besides, if the lesson you took away from getting the stick was "don't get caught next time," that doesn't exactly recommend it as a deterrent--unless they just didn't give it to you hard enough.

Man Against Time · Jan 31, 2004, 03:45 pm

I dont think being hit qualifies as Cruel or Unusual, so yes, it is perfectly appropriate as a civil punishment in lieu of crap like Community Service. The only Civil right dealing with punishment is that which protect a citizen from something that is cruel or unusual, not something that hurts, and I fail to see how being hit is either cruel or unusual. With this in mind, it is absolutely legal for the law of the land to comply with this practice. There is zero constitutional ground to demand an end to the practice.

So now because of "skin inflammation" it is a brutal practice? That is just digging this pit of stupidity deeper; brutal is certainly a subjective word with no "scientific scale' to measure, but, anyone who holds that being cracked in the ass is Brutal lives a very sugar-coated life. Grow up homo.

castille · Jan 31, 2004, 09:15 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (culebrero,)
So would you be OK with a boss using a paddle to discipline employees? Or with the judicial system using it for speeders or tax cheats? If not, what would be your (manly) objection?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well I would prefer physical punishment to having to pay a few thousand dollars in fines. I would object only if the punishment left permanent marks (ie. scars, etc). Otherwise, soft punishment like the stick is preferable to a fine.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Besides, if the lesson you took away from getting the stick was "don't get caught next time," that doesn't exactly recommend it as a deterrent--unless they just didn't give it to you hard enough.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Thats my way of thinking. However, if I get caught doing something wrong and I get "counselled", I would do it again.

Other people, however, might think differently. If you get the stick from your class teacher for not doing your homework, wouldn't you do your homework next time? (If you still didn't, I can imagine your ass would be quite sore by the end of a month).

culebrero · Feb 1, 2004, 12:34 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time)
I dont think being hit qualifies as Cruel or Unusual, so yes, it is perfectly appropriate as a civil punishment in lieu of crap like Community Service. The only Civil right dealing with punishment is that which protect a citizen from something that is cruel or unusual, not something that hurts, and I fail to see how being hit is either cruel or unusual. With this in mind, it is absolutely legal for the law of the land to comply with this practice. There is zero constitutional ground to demand an end to the practice. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>Calls to end paddling are not generally based on questions of constitutionality, and I don't think any were invoked in this thread. But something doesn't have to violate the Constitution for states to outlaw it.

That said, you certainly could make a case that the use of school paddling violates Title IX because unlike boys, girls who are maturing would have to reveal intimate personal information in order to avoid the chance of this punishment being unfairly compounded by menstrual discomfort.<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time)
So now because of "skin inflammation" it is a brutal practice? <hr size="1" /></blockquote> Not skin inflammation in and of itself, but pain intensity--of which the inflammation may be an index. <blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time)
brutal is certainly a subjective word with no "scientific scale' to measure,anyone who holds that being cracked in the ass is Brutal lives a very sugar-coated life.<hr size="1" /></blockquote> Imagine someone bending your wife or girlfriend over a desk and painfully whacking her ass with a board. Brutal or not brutal? (Guess the jury's still out on scalding someone's ass.)<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time)
Grow up homo.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Well, of course you would say that . . . Let's just hope you are never in a position to "demand the compliance of a bent-over 16 year old school girl"

culebrero · Feb 1, 2004, 12:38 am

Castille, I give you credit for being consistent. But one part of your answer troubles me:<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
However, if I get caught doing something wrong and I get "counselled", I would do it again. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>It's not like the only alternative to corporal punishment is counseling. There are all kinds of non-physical penalties.

castille · Feb 1, 2004, 01:10 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (culebrero,)
Castille, I give you credit for being consistent. But one part of your answer troubles me:It's not like the only alternative to corporal punishment is counseling. There are all kinds of non-physical penalties.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Then I would still do it again :)

Unless they use the death penalty. Like Stalin would say, "Death solves any problem. No man, no problem". Then he committed genocide.

Jan 29, 2004, 06:14 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,469	Isn't this a difference between discrimination and Discipline? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Jan 29, 2004, 09:33 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	WTF?? How could this go on these days? I know I grew up in a rough area but if any teacher took any such action, hell even a clip, would result in the teacher taking a serious beating from the kids. Of course thats not the point of the post, but thats what struck me first. Feminists don't turn a blind eye. Organisations can get mixed up with themselves, beginning as radicals and turning conservative the moment they consolidate. My sister is an arch feminist (no not feminazi castille) and she'd be appalled on point of a teacher violation trust, corporal punishment and sexual abuse. So please, save the generalisations for the bar. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jan 29, 2004, 10:49 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Pooeypants,) Isn't this a difference between discrimination and Discipline?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Sorry, I don't follow you.

Jan 29, 2004, 10:54 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) Feminists don't turn a blind eye. Organisations can get mixed up with themselves, beginning as radicals and turning conservative the moment they consolidate. My sister is an arch feminist (no not feminazi castille) and she'd be appalled on point of a teacher violation trust, corporal punishment and sexual abuse. So please, save the generalisations for the bar.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Then it's too bad your sister's not in charge of NOW. Maybe then they'd have something to say about this. I should note that Florida NOW and Women's Enews would be exceptions to the generalization I made.

Jan 29, 2004, 11:09 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Well as NOW do not represent all Feminists, which would have to be the case if your title was correct, please don't reflect the actions of this group upon al feminists. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jan 29, 2004, 05:03 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	. . . to the coerced bending over and butt-slapping of young women by male school principals? See open letter below. Kim Gandy, President National Organization for Women 733 15th St. NW, 2nd floor Washington, D.C. 20005 February 1, 2002 Dear Ms. Gandy: Please consider two hypothetical scenarios: 1) A male employer informs a 25-year-old female employee that she will not be considered for promotion unless she allows him to massage her buttocks. 2) A male school principal informs a 15-year-old schoolgirl that she will be suspended from classes for the next three days, therefore receiving zero grades on all missed tests and assignments, unless she submits to his spanking her on the buttocks with a wooden board. What are the essential differences between these two cases? Which of the two would you consider to be a more egregious violation of a defenseless victim? If you had to choose, which victim is in more urgent need of protection? Bear in mind that the beating is more painful and more dangerous than the massage, that the schoolgirl is probably more dependent on the adults in her world and less resourceful in defending her own interests, and that the psychological consequences to her are more apt to be long-term, setting her up for future victimization by other presumed authority figures, e.g., boyfriend, husband, employer—anyone with the power to demand her compliance and to hurt her if she resists. At this time, thanks largely to the efforts of such organizations as yours, nowhere in the U.S. are employers legally permitted to demand sexual favors in exchange for job security or advancement. In the public school systems of 23 states, however, thinly disguised sexual favors can be, and are being, coerced from students with impunity. According to the most conservative estimates, legal beatings of schoolchildren number about 1/3 million incidents per year, and many of those beatings are inflicted by adult males on underage females (though even 18-year-old women are not exempt from being paddled). It is often with threats to these girls’ academic standing—and by extension, their prospects for college admission—that these men prevail on them to “assume the position.” The purpose here is not to make a moral distinction between the mistreatment of girls and that of boys. We consider any deliberate aversive stimulation to the pelvic area of a non-consenting, underage person, irrespective of gender, to be a sexual violation. The purpose is rather to present the issue in terms of your particular mission: the protection of women. Ironically and tragically, to date no major women’s rights advocacy group that we are aware of has addressed this issue (excepting a 1992 resolution by the Florida chapter of NOW and a story published in Women’s Enews last September). It seems clear to us that one way—arguably the best way—to empower grown women would be to stop systematically disempowering young girls. That could be achieved with relative ease and speed. Virtually every other advanced nation, and more than a few developing nations, have already given schoolchildren statutory protection from disciplinary beatings. Ten European nations and Israel have now extended that protection to children in their homes. Posted on our Web site is “Rape: Lesson No. 1,” a young woman’s account of her experience with corporal punishment while a student at a Florida public high school. It speaks eloquently to this issue and should be read by everyone concerned about violence against women. You may read and make copies of that document at www.nospank.net/s-rape.htm. You can also see typical paddling-related injuries at www.nospank.net/whacked3.htm. In closing, we invite you to share this letter with board members, staff and the membership of your organization. We hope that you will decide that now is the time to protect schoolgirls from sexual violence disguised as discipline. To ignore their plight is to do a gross disservice to all women and to all society. Please keep us apprised of your plans in this regard. You may count on our cooperation in every way. Sincerely, Jordan Riak, Executive Director Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education (PTAVE) P.O. Box 1033 Alamo, CA 94507-7033 Tel.: (925) 831-1661 E-mail: riak@nospank.net Web site: "Project NoSpank" at www.nospank.net

Jan 30, 2004, 03:36 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) Well as NOW do not represent all Feminists, which would have to be the case if your title was correct, please don't reflect the actions of this group upon al feminists.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> OK, are there other feminist groups or individuals who have in fact addressed the situation, that in 22 states young women are obliged to submit to spankings from male principals?

Jan 30, 2004, 08:30 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	I must be missing something. Where does this show feminists turning a blind eye? As far as the issue, I would think since the girls are minors, the parents would be the first stop in ending the practice. I know this type of punishment is no longer allowed in schools and social workers would be all over the school in most states. I will research the matter a bit and post what I find. I attended private school(many years ago)and yes, I got the paddle myself. I know they no longer use it. The practice was ended over 20 years ago.

Jan 30, 2004, 12:24 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	I dont care how loud a feminist yells in my face, if I had the legal power to demand the compliance of a bent-over 16 year old school girl in those hot uniforms...I dont think I'd fast yield it. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 31, 2004, 04:37 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,) I must be missing something. Where does this show feminists turning a blind eye? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Well, how else should we characterize their failure (with a few exceptions) to acknowledge this practice?</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,) As far as the issue, I would think since the girls are minors, the parents would be the first stop in ending the practice.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Parents who fight the practice generally have an uphill battle. School officials circle the wagons, authorities decline to bring charges, their child may face reprisals at school for "making waves," and the courts have not been sympathetic. There may even be state laws immunizing the schools from liability (e.g., Alabama and Texas). And sadly, some parents don't care if their daughters are being spanked at school--maybe even approve of it. It should also be noted, however, that these girls are not always minors. Upper class students as old as 18 or 19 are not exempt from paddling.</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fedfem,) I know this type of punishment is no longer allowed in schools and social workers would be all over the school in most states.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Paddling remains legal in 22 states. Teachers frequently get away with levels of brutality to kids that parents would be thrown in jail for.

Jan 31, 2004, 08:39 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	Ok, now youre getting stupid. If you are saying its sort of warped and sexual, well, yes. As testimony to that you can cite the fact that most of us would get an erection if presented with the ready haunches of a high school girl in those little skirts and knee-high socks. I dont think anyone with a penis is going to argue that point. But Brutal? Comeon dude, grow up. There is no BRUTALITY in some slaps with a board on the ass. Stop exaggerating. And dont reply with, "How would you like it if..." or, "How come parents cant..." or any other stupid emotionally charged bullshit. You know damn well you cannot present an objective case for a slap on the ass as being Brutal. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 31, 2004, 10:04 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	CULEBRERO: "Parents who fight the practice generally have an uphill battle. School officials circle the wagons, authorities decline to bring charges, their child may face reprisals at school for "making waves," and the courts have not been sympathetic. There may even be state laws immunizing the schools from liability (e.g., Alabama and Texas). And sadly, some parents don't care if their daughters are being spanked at school--maybe even approve of it." Here in New England, parents have a lot of power in the schools. Our PTA's are quite active and I can't even imagine a teacher or a school admin dictating to us. As far as some states allowing it...the weird things going on lately like taking evolution out of the classroom, raids by police, etc... That said, this is something that citizens need to address, male, female etc. I read the site posted above and it does sound like a much bigger problem than I was ever aware of. This needs to be approached state by state. As I said before, I too was a victim of the paddle but never thought of it in the terms presented until I read some of the information on the website. I know now where certain fetishes have come from now.

Jan 31, 2004, 11:15 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	We still have this punishment today. When I was in primary school I got into a fight with another kid and we ended up getting the stick. Then I got it again for not finishing my homework, so painful I can still remember it heh! And it isnt reserved for women (unless its a porno), both guys and girls get it too. In fact more guys get beaten than girls. I dont see anything wrong with it. You do something wrong, you take the punishment. Just dont get caught next time and you wont get punished. If you couldnt stand it (cry for a guy, or run away) then you'd be a bit of a wimp wouldnt yuou? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jan 31, 2004, 02:33 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time,) Ok, now youre getting stupid. If you are saying its sort of warped and sexual, well, yes. As testimony to that you can cite the fact that most of us would get an erection if presented with the ready haunches of a high school girl in those little skirts and knee-high socks. I dont think anyone with a penis is going to argue that point. But Brutal? Comeon dude, grow up. There is no BRUTALITY in some slaps with a board on the ass. Stop exaggerating. And dont reply with, "How would you like it if..." or, "How come parents cant..." or any other stupid emotionally charged bullshit. You know damn well you cannot present an objective case for a slap on the ass as being Brutal.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I'm not sure by what standard "some slaps with a board on the ass" fails to qualify as brutal (especially if you're not interchanging it with merely "a slap on the ass"). You might at least want to qualify your statement after seeing some of the paddling-related bruises on this page. One objective fact to consider (though it's not often available for measurement) is the degree of skin inflammation that results immediately from a paddling, whether or not bruises later form. Then consider how much water at how high a temperature it would take to achieve similar results. Does inflammation from spanking correlate less sharply to pain intensity than inflammation from scalding? Would scalding someone's ass not be "brutal" in your book? There's nothing bullshit at all about asking people to put themselves in the position of a victim or their family--and certainly not about asking why there's a double standard allowing teachers to do to kids what their parents can't. If that's too emotionally charged for you, maybe you should stick to debating less emotionally charged practices.

Jan 31, 2004, 02:51 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) I dont see anything wrong with it. You do something wrong, you take the punishment. Just dont get caught next time and you wont get punished. If you couldnt stand it (cry for a guy, or run away) then you'd be a bit of a wimp wouldnt yuou?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>So would you be OK with a boss using a paddle to discipline employees? Or with the judicial system using it for speeders or tax cheats? If not, what would be your (manly) objection? Besides, if the lesson you took away from getting the stick was "don't get caught next time," that doesn't exactly recommend it as a deterrent--unless they just didn't give it to you hard enough.

Jan 31, 2004, 03:45 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	I dont think being hit qualifies as Cruel or Unusual, so yes, it is perfectly appropriate as a civil punishment in lieu of crap like Community Service. The only Civil right dealing with punishment is that which protect a citizen from something that is cruel or unusual, not something that hurts, and I fail to see how being hit is either cruel or unusual. With this in mind, it is absolutely legal for the law of the land to comply with this practice. There is zero constitutional ground to demand an end to the practice. So now because of "skin inflammation" it is a brutal practice? That is just digging this pit of stupidity deeper; brutal is certainly a subjective word with no "scientific scale' to measure, but, anyone who holds that being cracked in the ass is Brutal lives a very sugar-coated life. Grow up homo. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 31, 2004, 09:15 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (culebrero,) So would you be OK with a boss using a paddle to discipline employees? Or with the judicial system using it for speeders or tax cheats? If not, what would be your (manly) objection?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well I would prefer physical punishment to having to pay a few thousand dollars in fines. I would object only if the punishment left permanent marks (ie. scars, etc). Otherwise, soft punishment like the stick is preferable to a fine. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Besides, if the lesson you took away from getting the stick was "don't get caught next time," that doesn't exactly recommend it as a deterrent--unless they just didn't give it to you hard enough.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Thats my way of thinking. However, if I get caught doing something wrong and I get "counselled", I would do it again. Other people, however, might think differently. If you get the stick from your class teacher for not doing your homework, wouldn't you do your homework next time? (If you still didn't, I can imagine your ass would be quite sore by the end of a month). Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 1, 2004, 12:34 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time) I dont think being hit qualifies as Cruel or Unusual, so yes, it is perfectly appropriate as a civil punishment in lieu of crap like Community Service. The only Civil right dealing with punishment is that which protect a citizen from something that is cruel or unusual, not something that hurts, and I fail to see how being hit is either cruel or unusual. With this in mind, it is absolutely legal for the law of the land to comply with this practice. There is zero constitutional ground to demand an end to the practice. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Calls to end paddling are not generally based on questions of constitutionality, and I don't think any were invoked in this thread. But something doesn't have to violate the Constitution for states to outlaw it. That said, you certainly could make a case that the use of school paddling violates Title IX because unlike boys, girls who are maturing would have to reveal intimate personal information in order to avoid the chance of this punishment being unfairly compounded by menstrual discomfort.</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time) So now because of "skin inflammation" it is a brutal practice? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Not skin inflammation in and of itself, but pain intensity--of which the inflammation may be an index. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time) brutal is certainly a subjective word with no "scientific scale' to measure,anyone who holds that being cracked in the ass is Brutal lives a very sugar-coated life.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Imagine someone bending your wife or girlfriend over a desk and painfully whacking her ass with a board. Brutal or not brutal? (Guess the jury's still out on scalding someone's ass.)</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Man Against Time) Grow up homo.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Well, of course you would say that . . . Let's just hope you are never in a position to "demand the compliance of a bent-over 16 year old school girl"

Feb 1, 2004, 12:38 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
culebrero Sedimentary Rock Posts: 17	Castille, I give you credit for being consistent. But one part of your answer troubles me:</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by However, if I get caught doing something wrong and I get "counselled", I would do it again. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>It's not like the only alternative to corporal punishment is counseling. There are all kinds of non-physical penalties.

Feb 1, 2004, 01:10 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (culebrero,) Castille, I give you credit for being consistent. But one part of your answer troubles me:It's not like the only alternative to corporal punishment is counseling. There are all kinds of non-physical penalties.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Then I would still do it again :) Unless they use the death penalty. Like Stalin would say, "Death solves any problem. No man, no problem". Then he committed genocide. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.