Has feminism lived up to its promise?

[barts]

I'm old enough to remember (and to reap the benefits of) the introduction of the "Pill". So, I was well aware of the very beginnings of modern feminism. Let me arbitrarily set that year as 1963 with the publication of Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique.

I recall that the feminists of the day made a range of arguments for women's liberation. If memory serves (and it often doesn't) the ultimate rationale for women's liberation was the attainment of a better world for all. If women, the meme went, were equally and fairly represented in all aspects of the community, in law, medicine, government, business, science, education--the list goes on--the world would be a better place for both men and women. Women would temper the "winner take all / survival of the fittest / law of the jungle / patriarchal" ethos of men with their nurturing, compassion, and cooperation.

As grandfather, husband, father, and brother of women, I wholeheartedly, without reservation, and with enthusiam support the principle of gender equality. However, having said that, it seems to me that feminism has never delivered on its promise for a better world and, in fact, cannot. Now rather than simply having male assholes running everything we have male and female assholes running everything.

If we are to be true to the notion of gender equality and women's liberation, we have to accept that women have as much right to be dickheads as men, and they have embraced that right with enthusiasm.

For women, gender equality and liberation has benefited many, and that's good, but it has not created a better world. The promise of feminism hasn't been kept, and it never will be.

[Jack]

As long as America, and much of the Western world, believes it has inherited from the Judeo-Christian ethic the concept of a patriarchal society women will never be given full and equal consideration in all aspects, even if the benefits could be clearly illustrated.

[LetThereBe]

Feminism suffers from the same "us vs them" mentality as other solidarity movements that restrict their efforts to only benefit one demographic.

That said, it is indeed doomed to failure even ignoring that flaw. Even if humans say they want equality, the vast majority of people actually do not. Whether it is a direct result of how we evolved or whether it is just overwhelmingly encouraged in our culture, even the most liberal tend to buy into gender roles... at least subconsciously.

[Dan74]

Radical feminism is what I stand with. "Moderate" feminism results in this :

However, having said that, it seems to me that feminism has never delivered on its promise for a better world and, in fact, cannot. Now rather than simply having male assholes running everything we have male and female assholes running everything.

Basically,

Radical feminism calls for things like abolition of patriarchy, equality between all sexes, and abolition of gender as a social construct. This almost always associated with the far-left.

"Moderate" feminism calls for things like better pay for women, more female CEOs, yadda yadda yadda.

[Darklordabc]

As long as America, and much of the Western world, believes it has inherited from the Judeo-Christian ethic the concept of a patriarchal society women will never be given full and equal consideration in all aspects, even if the benefits could be clearly illustrated.

How much better can it get for women? I can't imagine a society where women are significantly more liberated then they are now.

Feminism suffers from the same "us vs them" mentality as other solidarity movements that restrict their efforts to only benefit one demographic.

This is fundamentally wrong. Feminism has always been about equality for women, nothing more.

For women, gender equality and liberation has benefited many, and that's good, but it has not created a better world. The promise of feminism hasn't been kept, and it never will be.

So women's suffrage, hasn't made the world better? Raising half of the human population out of second-class citizen status, is not a significant improvement?
We only have to look at societies, where women are still essentially treated as property, to see just how far we owe to feminism and the people who fought under its banner.
To say, that the freeing of half the population, is not made a better world, is undervaluing the importance of freedom and liberty.
Feminism is one of the most important ideological movements in human history, and is a hallmark of truly free societies.

[LetThereBe]

This is fundamentally wrong. Feminism has always been about equality for women, nothing more.

That depends on the feminist you talk to.

For example, you have the feminists that feel the word of an accuser should be sufficient to convict a man of rape... but for other crimes the word of one person isn't enough. They will think you are a victim-blaming chauvinist if you even suggest that educating about reducing risk of rape is a good idea. They will tell you how much a problem slut-shaming is when it comes to females that are open with their sexuality, but also how men that are sexually forward are creeps and essentially no better than rapists.

In either case, the point is that they only care about the "for women" issues. Consider the very common feminist complaint of the word "rape" being used in jokes or as a euphemism for "destroy" or "dominate". I can understand why some would consider this offensive, but is it any more offensive than doing the same for any other tragedy? What about "murder", "massacre", "slaughter"? These are similarly terrible tragedies (worse than rape objectively) but no one cares that these are used for colorful language. You will never hear a feminist complain about them because they aren't a gender specific issue. This is why I say they restrict their efforts to benefit only one demographic.

[Darklordabc]

For example, you have the feminists that feel the word of an accuser should be sufficient to convict a man of rape... but for other crimes the word of one person isn't enough. They will think you are a victim-blaming chauvinist if you even suggest that educating about reducing risk of rape is a good idea.

I'd be careful about equating feminism to what feminists do and say.
Its as dangerous as thinking that equality for blacks, is what Al sharpton and Jesse Jackson spew.
I'm a feminist and I do not agree with the garbage that a few feminists believe.
I'm sure if pressed, everybody on this forum is a feminist, just like how everybody is for equality for gays, blacks, and other historically oppressed groups.

You will never hear a feminist complain about them because they aren't a gender specific issue. This is why I say they restrict their efforts to benefit only one demographic.

Again, your mixing up the fundamental definition of feminism and what feminists do.

This is why I say they restrict their efforts to benefit only one demographic.

I will be the first to condemn large section of feminists for their short-sightedness and silliness, especially with their disgusting disregard for their Muslim sisters, but we musnt let modern day feminists sully a noble and necessary idea. Especially when there are literally millions of women who are living in a pre-feminism world, where the ideals of feminism are both needed and fringe.

[LetThereBe]

I'd be careful about equating feminism to what feminists do and say.
Its as dangerous as thinking that equality for blacks, is what Al sharpton and Jesse Jackson spew.
I'm a feminist and I do not agree with the garbage that a few feminists believe.
I'm sure if pressed, everybody on this forum is a feminist, just like how everybody is for equality for gays, blacks, and other historically oppressed groups.

There are many brands of feminism... just as there are many types of Christians, many types of liberals, many types of everything.
Being a feminist doesn't alone make you a bigot, but there are plenty that take it that far.

[Dan74]

How much better can it get for women? I can't imagine a society where women are significantly more liberated then they are now.

.......what?

-Rape is still prevalent

-Words like "bitch" and "cunt" are still prevalent

-Women are still portrayed as sex objects by various media

-Many still see women as little more than housewives

-Single moms are discriminated against

And I could probably list several more reasons why women are still nowhere near equal to men.

In either case, the point is that they only care about the "for women" issues. Consider the very common feminist complaint of the word "rape" being used in jokes or as a euphemism for "destroy" or "dominate". I can understand why some would consider this offensive, but is it any more offensive than doing the same for any other tragedy? What about "murder", "massacre", "slaughter"? These are similarly terrible tragedies (worse than rape objectively) but no one cares that these are used for colorful language. You will never hear a feminist complain about them because they aren't a gender specific issue. This is why I say they restrict their efforts to benefit only one demographic.

Rape ruins a person's life. Murder takes it away. Very different things. Talking about which one is "worse" really gets you nowhere.

[Darklordabc]

There are many brands of feminism... just as there are many types of Christians, many types of liberals, many types of everything.
Being a feminist doesn't alone make you a bigot, but there are plenty that take it that far.

Feminism is a very basic idea, their isn't much room for disagreement with its definition. Its the practical application which creates all those crazy feminists you talk about.
This is the definition I base my feminism off "The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."

[LetThereBe]

Rape ruins a person's life. Murder takes it away. Very different things. Talking about which one is "worse" really gets you nowhere.

Unquestionably they are different things... but I think it is a pretty reasonable statement that it is worse to kill someone than to have sex with someone without their consent. Rape at least can sometimes be recovered from. Murder? Not so much.

In either case, if one "isn't worse than the other" still only one is considered offensive. If I say:
"Did you see the game? Team A absolutely RAPED team B"
...that would be considered offensive. If I say instead:
"Did you see the game? Team A absolutely MURDERED team B"
...no one bats an eye.


EDIT:

-Words like "bitch" and "cunt" are still prevalent

So are words like "dick".

-Women are still portrayed as sex objects by various media

So are men.

-Many still see women as little more than housewives

The fact that "many" people have stereotypes doesn't mean that women have not been "liberated". On that note, it isn't like men are without stereotypes as well.

-Single moms are discriminated against

Specifically how?

[Darklordabc]

.......what?
-Rape is still prevalent

-Words like "bitch" and "cunt" are still prevalent

-Women are still portrayed as sex objects by various media

Somethings are never going to be equal. There is nothing to be equality among rape victims, women will always be raped. But I don't see any obvious ways for us to reduce it anymore then we already have reduced it.
I'm not convinced bitch and cunt are related to female oppresion, anymore then asshole or dick, is related to male oppression. There will always be deogragtive expressions designed for either one of the genders. Women will always be viewed as sex objects, in at less some fashion, again, i don't see how you could change that, as its hardcoded into male psychology.

Many still see women as little more than housewives
Single moms are discriminated against

Single mother's are discriminated against? By who? Certainty not the government which forces men to pay for children they dont even want (in some cases).
I don't know anybody who views women as little more then housewives, this almost just sounds like a sexiest stereotype against men.

There will never be equality in outcomes, mainly because of genetic differences between men and women. We should aim for equality in choices and opportunities.