Abortion based on sex of the child

[Ender]

The real question should be what does it matter to you (or anyone for that matter) if it isn't your child. A non issue, though contreversial, trivial to the banes of our society.

It matters for a lot of reasons. Firstly, a general belief in non-violence and preservation of life would cause one to be concerned with this issue. But more specifically sex selection in abortion could lead to the disproportionate destruction of one sex over another. I hope most people would at least regard this as unethical, even if we can't agree whether or not it should be legal.

[Savi]

I'm pro-choice, but I don't think abortion should be encouraged for such a superfluous reason. Abortion should be a last resort for failed contraceptives or genetic defects, not any other reason.

Though you're technically pro-choice, your statement implies that you believe abortion is actually a bad thing that should be avoided under most circumstances. If you think it should only be used as a last resort, you clearly have a problem with it, which makes me wonder why you consider yourself pro-choice. I personally have no problem with abortion, and wouldn't mind if someone had one for any reason whatsoever.

[Savi]

Here's a question for anyone who objects to abortion based on gender: Who suffers as a result of the decision to have an abortion under those circumstances (or any circumstances)? The way I see it, there's no good reason to object to something if it doesn't reduce the quality of anyone's life. So who's life is worse off as a result of the abortion?

[Trojan_Ripper]

Here's a question for anyone who objects to abortion based on gender: Who suffers as a result of the decision to have an abortion under those circumstances (or any circumstances)? The way I see it, there's no good reason to object to something if it doesn't reduce the quality of anyone's life. So who's life is worse off as a result of the abortion?

The mother, or, I guess the women undergoing an abortion and afterwards. It seems it does effect their quality of life….it seems there are all kinds of detrimental effects of abortion.....hmmmm? Look em up.

In a study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion, researchers found that 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor. A 5 year retrospective study in two Canadian provinces found significantly greater use of medical and psychiatric services among aborted women. Most significant was the finding that 25% of aborted women made visits to psychiatrists as compared to 3% of the control group. Women who have had abortions are significantly more likely than others to subsequently require admission to a psychiatric hospital. At especially high risk are teenagers, separated or divorced women, and women with a history of more than one abortion.

Since many post-aborted women use repression as a coping mechanism, there may be a long period of denial before a woman seeks psychiatric care. These repressed feelings may cause psychosomatic illnesses and psychiatric or behavioral in other areas of her life. As a result, some counselors report that unacknowledged post-abortion distress is the causative factor in many of their female patients, even though their patients have come to them seeking therapy for seemingly unrelated problems.

While psychological reactions to abortion fall into many categories, some women experience all or some of they symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The lowest incidence rate of PTSD reported following abortion is 1.5%, which would translate to over 600,000 cases of abortion induced PTSD.2 Another study found that 14% of American women have all the symptoms of PTSD and attribute them to their abortions, with as many as 65% reporting some, but not all symptoms of PTSD.

[minorwork]

The mother, or, I guess the women undergoing an abortion and afterwards. It seems it does effect their quality of life….it seems there are all kinds of detrimental effects of abortion.....hmmmm? Look em up.

You've countered Savi's proposition fine. What occurs to a woman after her birth or abortion is the burden of responsibility. Where is your responsibility in that mother's life, such that you would suffer the effects you cited?

[Trojan_Ripper]

You've countered Savi's proposition fine. What occurs to a woman after her birth or abortion is the burden of responsibility. Where is your responsibility in that mother's life, such that you would suffer the effects you cited?

It seems I have none, as the Mother dosen't need my approval to abort. So the effects of said abortion should not be my responsibilty should it?

The effects it seem are only left to the Mother (not the Father's) and part of the problem.

[minorwork]

It seems I have none, as the Mother doesn't need my approval to abort. So the effects of said abortion should not be my responsibility should it?

If the pregnancy were of your doing but you didn't know about the pregnancy, I don't see you having any effects whether terminated or carried to term. If you know then conscience, present or absence, might determine different effects depending if you think you own something there, be it the mother or child.

I paid child support from '87 to '05. Should I have? My decision. Don't know if you should.

The effects it seem are only left to the Mother (not the Father's) and part of the problem.

You cited the effects that seemed to be speaking of the Mother not the Father. You got some effects from an unknown mother aborting or birthing on the west coast I'd like to hear about them.

[ironeagle]

Well if we're gonna murder defensless babies then why not do it based on sex too! It never ceases to amaze me of the filth of this nation.

[minorwork]

Well if we're gonna murder defensless babies then why not do it based on sex too! It never ceases to amaze me of the filth of this nation.

Filth?

[Trojan_Ripper]

You cited the effects that seemed to be speaking of the Mother not the Father. You got some effects from an unknown mother aborting or birthing on the west coast I'd like to hear about them.

Don’t understand your question or statement, minorwork.

I’m sure the effects of abortion would be, and could be, the same, maybe even more on the unwilling Father if he knows. This change would….and can only make the outcome worse by doubling the known effect.

It’s intresting how there is no response to this by pro-abortion/choice activists. Is it because this knowledge is something that doesn’t matter, or, because it goes against their beliefs they don’t want to discuss?

In a study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion, researchers found that 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor. A 5 year retrospective study in two Canadian provinces found significantly greater use of medical and psychiatric services among aborted women. Most significant was the finding that 25% of aborted women made visits to psychiatrists as compared to 3% of the control group. Women who have had abortions are significantly more likely than others to subsequently require admission to a psychiatric hospital. At especially high risk are teenagers, separated or divorced women, and women with a history of more than one abortion.

Since many post-aborted women use repression as a coping mechanism, there may be a long period of denial before a woman seeks psychiatric care. These repressed feelings may cause psychosomatic illnesses and psychiatric or behavioral in other areas of her life. As a result, some counselors report that unacknowledged post-abortion distress is the causative factor in many of their female patients, even though their patients have come to them seeking therapy for seemingly unrelated problems.

While psychological reactions to abortion fall into many categories, some women experience all or some of they symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The lowest incidence rate of PTSD reported following abortion is 1.5%, which would translate to over 600,000 cases of abortion induced PTSD.2 Another study found that 14% of American women have all the symptoms of PTSD and attribute them to their abortions, with as many as 65% reporting some, but not all symptoms of PTSD.

[minorwork]

Don’t understand your question or statement, minorwork.

Apologies. The statements you gave and give here are from studies of women who've had abortions?

If you can feel effects from any woman who aborts but you don't know has aborted, I was wanting to hear if it hit you like a wave, a large disturbance in the Force, or how you could possibly be affected such that you felt you had to force yourself on her to prevent your feeling those symptoms.

I’m sure the effects of abortion would be, and could be, the same, maybe even more on the unwilling Father if he knows. This change would….and can only make the outcome worse by doubling the known effect.

I'm not sure at all. An imagined scenario though. If you'd have a woman who you were aware of having had an abortion that she herself was unaware of having, then you'd have yourself a helluva good story to publish in book form or the start of a doctoral thesis or both. AND you could verify what now you are only sure about.

It’s interesting how there is no response to this by pro-abortion/choice activists. Is it because this knowledge is something that doesn’t matter, or, because it goes against their beliefs they don’t want to discuss?

I've heard mention, but have yet to hear any significant consideration, so I'd say it doesn't matter compared to the woman's situation.

I don't find much significance to your mentioned study(ies)(?). Might be the study has but found abortion decisions are typical of a personality type noted to exhibit those traits that you're sure is caused by the women knowing of their abortions. The study as easily supports a conclusion that abortion is caused by those traits. In the body of your cited text there is mention of the study's type being retrospective. That is a pretty big problem to being sure enough of the conclusions to bet the farm on what you say you are sure about. You just don't get much quality science from retrospective studies. From http://www.arachnoid.com/doubt/index.html

For those unfamiliar with human studies, here is a list of experimental designs ranked in descending order by their probability of producing useful science:

• Prospective studies, studies in which groups are randomly selected from a representative population and experimented on:
  
  
  • A "double-blind" controlled experiment is one in which neither the researchers nor the subjects know which group (experimental or control) they belong to, and ideally those who later evaluate the experimental data also do not know which group is which.
  • A "single-blind" controlled experiment is like the above but the experimenter knows which subjects are experimental and which are controls.
  • A controlled experiment is one in which an experiment is conducted on two groups — a group receiving the stimulus under study, and a control group not receiving that stimulus — but no effort is made to conceal the identities of the groups.
  • An uncontrolled experiment is an informal study in which a stimulus is applied to one group, and there is no control for comparison purposes.
  
  
• Retrospective studies, studies in which the experimental groups are selected from within the population based on their past histories:
  
  
  • Studies in which two groups can be located in the population that are similar except for the trait under investigation.
  • Studies in which one population can be located and is compared to the general population.
  • Studies in which conclusions are drawn on the basis of popular accounts and common knowledge.

The problem with retrospective studies is that there is no meaningful way to draw reliable conclusions based on them. For example, let's say a study is meant to determine whether a group that takes vitamins is more intelligent than one that doesn't. We can't just sign people up for a prospective study and give half the subjects vitamins and the other half sugar pills — that would be unethical. So we must use a retrospective experimental design, one in which the subjects are drawn from the population, based on their pre-existing behaviors — some who take vitamins, some who don't — and try to decide how this affects intelligence.

Most readers will see the problem with this design — for groups drawn from the population at large, some of whom take vitamins, and some who don't, how are we to determine whether the experimental outcome is a cause or an effect? Did the subjects take vitamins because they are intelligent, or are they intelligent because they take vitamins?

The type of experimental design of the study you've suggested has made you sure of your conclusion is, in fact, second to last in scientific value. And so in the following I ask; Did the subjects symptoms come from the abortions or did they cause the abortions?

In a study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion, researchers found that 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor. A 5 year retrospective study in two Canadian provinces found significantly greater use of medical and psychiatric services among aborted women. Most significant was the finding that 25% of aborted women made visits to psychiatrists as compared to 3% of the control group. Women who have had abortions are significantly more likely than others to subsequently require admission to a psychiatric hospital. At especially high risk are teenagers, separated or divorced women, and women with a history of more than one abortion.

Since many post-aborted women use repression as a coping mechanism, there may be a long period of denial before a woman seeks psychiatric care. These repressed feelings may cause psychosomatic illnesses and psychiatric or behavioral in other areas of her life. As a result, some counselors report that unacknowledged post-abortion distress is the causative factor in many of their female patients, even though their patients have come to them seeking therapy for seemingly unrelated problems.

While psychological reactions to abortion fall into many categories, some women experience all or some of they symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The lowest incidence rate of PTSD reported following abortion is 1.5%, which would translate to over 600,000 cases of abortion induced PTSD.2 Another study found that 14% of American women have all the symptoms of PTSD and attribute them to their abortions, with as many as 65% reporting some, but not all symptoms of PTSD.

[Trojan_Ripper]

Apologies. The statements you gave and give here are from studies of women who've had abortions?

No problem.... and yes the statements I quoted were from studies of women who had abortions.

If you can feel effects from any woman who aborts but you don't know has aborted, I was wanting to hear if it hit you like a wave, a large disturbance in the Force, or how you could possibly be affected such that you felt you had to force yourself on her to prevent your feeling those symptoms.

Wow. I just fell of the bike again and need better instructions. Could you re-phrase that, thanks.

I'm not sure at all. An imagined scenario though. If you'd have a woman who you were aware of having had an abortion that she herself was unaware of having, then you'd have yourself a helluva good story to publish in book form or the start of a doctoral thesis or both. AND you could verify what now you are only sure about.

Better yet minorwork....In my scenario I would understand what you are talking about. I'm not being a smart-ass but if I'm "sure" of something then I have most likely have verified it.

I've heard mention, but have yet to hear any significant consideration, so I'd say it doesn't matter compared to the woman's situation.

I don't find much significance to your mentioned study(ies)(?). Might be the study has but found abortion decisions are typical of a personality type noted to exhibit those traits that you're sure is caused by the women knowing of their abortions. The study as easily supports a conclusion that abortion is caused by those traits. In the body of your cited text there is mention of the study's type being retrospective. That is a pretty big problem to being sure enough of the conclusions to bet the farm on what you say you are sure about. You just don't get much quality science from retrospective studies.

The problem with retrospective studies is that there is no meaningful way to draw reliable conclusions based on them. For example, let's say a study is meant to determine whether a group that takes vitamins is more intelligent than one that doesn't. We can't just sign people up for a prospective study and give half the subjects vitamins and the other half sugar pills — that would be unethical. So we must use a retrospective experimental design, one in which the subjects are drawn from the population, based on their pre-existing behaviors — some who take vitamins, some who don't — and try to decide how this affects intelligence.

Most readers will see the problem with this design — for groups drawn from the population at large, some of whom take vitamins, and some who don't, how are we to determine whether the experimental outcome is a cause or an effect? Did the subjects take vitamins because they are intelligent, or are they intelligent because they take vitamins?[/INDENT]
The type of experimental design of the study you've suggested has made you sure of your conclusion is, in fact, second to last in scientific value. And so in the following I ask; Did the subjects symptoms come from the abortions or did they cause the abortions?[INDENT][I]

There are scores of research and documentation on (PAS) or Post Abortion Syndrome with differing viewpoints….and that should be expected. As far as this thread is concerned… I would believe that a Mother and Father who are using abortion for gender selection would probably not suffer from these complications because of the “culling the herd” mentality…. so to speak. That being said, “I would also hope that parents would not suffer from their decision on abortion for things such as rape, and health reasons”.

Having a veiwpoint on something.... and using research with differing veiwpoints is not a "sure" thing on either side of the street you stand on ...and shouldn't be looked at as such, unless it is "fact". So just because the sign is blinking "NO Walking " doesn't mean it's a "sure thing" you'll get hit if you cross the street....but then you could get hit by a mack truck.

I also found it intresting that wikipedia stated this about (Men) and Post Abortion Syndrome even though they basically took the side of abortion

The psychological response of male partners to abortion has been the subject of limited research. A study of 75 men in Sweden found that most participating men agreed with their partner's decision to have an abortion, and that many experienced a complex mix of emotions including anxiety, responsibility, guilt, relief and grief.[30]
Other studies have suggested that abortion can be a point of conflict when partners disagree about it,[31] and that like women, many male partners experience an ambivalent mix of emotions in response to their partner's abortion, underscoring the complexity of the abortion issue.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_and_mental_health