As I see the evidence, Zimmerman saw a black kid and jumped to the wrong conclusion. He then intimidated the kid, stalked him and the kid naturally confronted him. Zimmerman then pushed the kid and the kid hit him, so Zimmerman shot him. What part of that have I got wrong?
Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society.
Robert Owen
While you are technically accurate in defining legal definitions of assault vs battery you cannot say that Zimmerman had any intent to harm Trayvon, in fact, the fact he called for police is more proof he did not have nay intent to assault or harm Trayvon. Following a person in public is not a crime and is not defined as assault unless the activity becomes egregious and has the intent to strike fear without merit. Striking fear in and of it's self is also not grounds enough for assault charges it must be accompanied with an intent to do harm and must be unwarranted. In this case a neighborhood watch captain is protecting his people from possible burglary by persons which Trayvon fits the description of so even if he does follow him he is not instantly guilty of assault or stalking.Quote by: Muckraker
In additon (at least in this state) assault of following and striking fear is at best a simple misdemeanor 4th degree harassment/assault, and has a fine of $65, what Trayvon did is a class D felony battery at the lowest, with a lowest sentence of 1 year in jail.
Saving the empovershed by empoverishing their counterparts will empoverish the whole.
Then why did he follow the fleeing Trayvon and force an altercation? Moreover an altercation to which he brought a deadly weapon? Why did he not immidiately identify himself as a neighbourhood watch member, state his purpose, his intention, that he was armed, and maintain a distance to his victim? Why did he ignore the advice of the police on the phone? And why does his version of events not tally with eyewitness accounts?
Not so. He followed an unarmed individual going about his own lawful buisness, chased him and in so doing forced an altercation. That is assault not by Martin but by Zimmerman. Martin, by striking Zimmerman acted in self defence against a suspicious unknown party stalking him at night and who failed to identify himself. Therefore Martin was entirely within his legal right to use force against his assailant, as Florida's Statutes & Constitution make perfectly clear.
He intimidated a law obidining citizen, that citizen was well within his right to defend himself against percieved harm and did so, Zimmerman then Trayvon as Trayvon attempted to defend himself against an armed aggressor.
Last edited by Chris the Chees; 28th March 2012 at 02:18 PM.
Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society.
Robert Owen
Who know what part you have wrong? We await clarity.
From whence did you compile the scenario?
It would seem that at least one witness testifies Trayvon was atop Zimmerman repeatedly hitting for enough time for Zimmerman to call several times for help prior to the shooting.
The tree of liberty is hungry. Let's feed it well in the next election.
Pray tell by what evidence you insinuate Zimmerman pushed Trayvon? Yes he saw a black kid who fit the profile of th eburglars who had been breaking into his neighborhood so what?
Saving the empovershed by empoverishing their counterparts will empoverish the whole.
His account does tally with eye witness accounts and in fact some possible evidence has been suggested via the 911 call that Zimmerman may in fact not have even followed Trayvon. The only account says Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman was screaming there are no accounts of any attack by Zimmerman to Trayvon previous to it. Now I think you're just making stuff up.
Saving the empovershed by empoverishing their counterparts will empoverish the whole.
No, it doesn't. Zimmerman claimed to have been returning to his SUV when he was attacked by Trayvon, after a brief verbal exchange in which he claimed that Martin asked him if he had a problem, to which Zimmerman replied in the negative, and then Martin stated "You do now" (or words to the effect) and then Martin proceeded to give Zimmerman a beating. This version of events is not corroborated by Trayvon's girlfriend who reported that:
""Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."
Trayvon Martin Arrest Now After ABC Reveals Crucial Phone Call - ABC News
Similarly another witness, Mary Cutcher, stated:
"Zimmerman was standing over the body with -- basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon's back," Cutcher said. "And it didn't seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way. I didn't hear any struggle prior to the gunshot.
"And I feel like it was Trayvon Martin that was crying out, because the minute that the gunshot went off, the whining stopped."
What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com
Plainly, this testimony does not match Zimmerman's version of events. Of course, there is evidence that, prior to shooting Martin, Zimmerman did have his ass handed to him; but as noted Martin was entirely within his rights to defend himself against an armed and intimidating individual chasing him through his father's neighbourhood. Zimmerman, on the other hand, had no right to prevent Martin from being in the neighbourhood, no right to intimidate him, no right to question him, no right to push him and no right to shoot him.
That contradicts the evidence of Martin's girlfriend and Zimmerman's own statements, including his own 911 can at the time, which states, and I quote:
Police centre operator: "Are you following him?"
Zimmerman: "Yeah"
that has been repeated endlessly acorss the internet but also in this thread, you just lied; ironic given that accused me of making stuff up.
Also untrue.
"Zimmerman was standing over the body with -- basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon's back,"
The only first hand testimony besides Zimmerman's:
"and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."
See above for link.
[QUOTE=ironeagle]Yes he saw a black kid who fit the profile of th eburglars who had been breaking into his neighborhood so what?[/QUOT]
So, he proceeded to chase and intimidate an individual innocent of those crimes, whom he then began an altercation with and eventually shot. Have you not been paying attention to the details of the case?
Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society.
Robert Owen
1. The claim that Martin was astride Zimmerman beating him is not consistent with Mary Cutcher's statement to the press, in which she claimed to have witnessed:
"Zimmerman was standing over the body with -- basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon's back," ... "And it didn't seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way. I didn't hear any struggle prior to the gunshot."
What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com
However, whether or not Martin did physically beat Zimmerman is irrelevent because:
2. a violent responce to intimidation and stalking with a deadly weapon (which meets all the requirements for assault under Florida law) is perfectly legal. Martin was well within his rights to attempt to subdue Zimmerman who was, through his actions, committing an assault on Martin. See my previous posts in this thread for relevent links.
3. the calls for help, which we can hear on the 911 calls do not sound like the cries of a post-pubecent man, rather they sound like the cries of a teenage boy, something confirmed by those who actually heard the cries first hand (as opposed to over the phone):
"Three witnesses contacted by The Miami Herald say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Miami Gardens teenager’s killing. All three said they heard the last howl for help from a despondent boy, and believe the sequence of sounds shatters the notion that Trayvon was killed in self defense."
"I heard someone crying – not boo-hoo crying, but scared or terrified or hurt maybe,” said Mary Cutcher, 31. “To me, it was a child.”
“This was not self defense,” Cutcher said. “We heard no fighting, no wrestling, no punching. We heard a boy crying. As soon as the shot went off, it stopped, which tells me it was the child crying. If it had been Zimmerman crying, it wouldn’t have stopped. If you’re hurting, you’re hurting.”
“I saw someone lying on the ground, and I heard screaming,” said Austin, 13, whose mother asked that his last name not be published. “I don’t know that it was the person on the [ground] who was screaming, but to me it sounded like a kid who was crying. It was a yell for help, and I think it was Trayvon.”
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-tray...,2583523.story
4. The claim that Zimmerman pushed Martin comes directly from what his girlfriend heard over the phone:
"The girl said she then got the impression that an altercation was taking place and that someone had pushed Martin, because the headset fell out of his ear, and the phone shut off."
What witnesses say in the Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com
And regardless of what the police are saying now, the investigating officer rejected Zimmerman's story precisely because it doesn't add up.
"The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News."
"Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events."
Trayvon Martin Investigator Wanted to Charge George Zimmerman With Manslaughter - ABC News
So, in answer to your question, "where did I compile the scenario?", from the available testimony we can read online. It is all there.
Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society.
Robert Owen
Spike Lee should be charged with a crime. What he did was idiotic. I don't want pissed off, riled up folks taking the law into their own hands, vigilante style, in any instance. It is why we have fucking police departments. You will find I have consistently argued that point. I argue it with anarchists who think average citizens with no training and only their common sense to guide them would make a fine police force, I argue it with libertarians who think reliance on police officers is "nanny state" pussy bullshit and if someone whose daughter had been raped wanted to administer their own justice, I would argue it to them as well. I would also argue that it is a root cause of the whole fucking Zimmerman/Martin mess to begin with. In the end, be he a racist vigilante crusader or just a hot headed vigilante crusader, Zimmerman instigated a confrontation with a private citizen that led to a death. The situation escalated beyond his control and a 17 year old who had never seen a lawyer, a judge or a jury died. That is fucked up, no matter which way you slice it.
And hey...just to show you how consistent I am, if someone at the address that Lee posted gets killed, he bears responsibility and ought to face a harsher penalty than the penalty for just posting the address would carry, just like I thought Ravi deserved in Clementi's death at Rutgers. It was reckless and anyone with a brain ought to know that it could lead to violence or a death.
Last edited by lsbskins1; 28th March 2012 at 04:59 PM.
All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard -
Tell me, could that be you?
John Kay
How does after the fact testimony of one witness negate the at the time of the fact testimony of another?
Zimmerman was standing over the body after the gunshot. That witness has no idea what happened before and during the time of the gunshot.
Trayvon's father stated that the screaming voice was not that of his son.
The 13 year old admits not knowing who it was and offers no description.
The six foot tall 17 year old Trayvon is not a child. Nor is Zimmerman. Both witnesses state it sounded like a child. Neither involved was a child.
The girlfriend's statements shed little light. Heard what sounded like a scuffle? Initiated by whom?
But you are free to believe as you will and exclude, include,and interpret the information available as you wish.
It is exclusion of information that irks me the most. To this day CNN refuses to include any information concerning the eye witness that clearly described Trayvon atop Zimmerman punching him repeatedly before the shooting occurred.
What possible motive could they have for excluding this account completely?
The tree of liberty is hungry. Let's feed it well in the next election.
Vanilla Ice Syndrome, Studio Gangstas, and Facebook-thugs
Any one remember Vanilla Ice? Ice was given a bum rap (no pun intended) why is this? As one of the first white rappers in the era in which gansta-rap was emerging, Vanilla Ice’s “street credentials” came under intense scrutiny. After all his lyrics boasting of the streets, it turns out he was your typical middle class Caucasian who possessed much more talent than street credentials and was just given in to the bad boy image in order to promote himself. Vanilla Ice, however was no different than many other black rappers who for the most part led safe non-criminal lives. Even people as safe as M.C. Hammer were given license to grill Ice publicly.
Dr. Dre, who although may have been born in Compton, attended a suburbanite High School to escape gang violence. During a rivalry between fellow rapper Easy-E, Easy accussed Dr. Dre of being a “Studio Gangsta”. While promoters would have you believe that “studio gangstas” are in the minority, they are actually in the majority.
Questioning the veracity of Caucasians who enter into fields which are dominated by African Americans, and assuming expertise of African Americans in the field is what I refer to as Vanilla Ice syndrome. To further emphasize my point, when white rapper Snow emerged out of prison with his song Informer, people still dismissed him as a hard core wanna-be. The label persisted despite the fact that Snow had a verifiable prison record, something that most black “gangsta rappers” at the time lacked.
In Vanilla Ice syndrome the white, basketball player, dancer, rapper, gangster, fighter, must be ten times greater than his black counterpart, to even be recognized as acceptable. The reversal of this syndrome is that a black youth, in order to be convincing as a gangsta merely needs to don a baseball cap backwards, sag his pants, have a cap of gold teeth, or where a hoodie.
Gangsta culture is pervasive imitation of it goes beyond racial lines. We have various categories for white middle class suburbanite youth who imitate gangsta culture, such as wigger, or wanna-be. Whatever the term is, the underlying idea behind the expression is the fact that the user is skeptical of the idea that a middle class white kid could actually truly be a gangster.
Just as you have studio gangsta’s you also have a phenomena I will describe as cyber bullies and face-book thugs. On the internet people are given the chance to live a “second life”. In this imaginary world a 40 year old man can be a sixteen year old girl. A conservative religious leader can be a proud homosexual. A young -open minded West Coast liberal can be an old southern racist, and a And a 13 year old asthmatic “nerd” can be a 30 year old cassanova. This it’s no surprise to me that a 17 year old boy who poses for ski trips pictures to go in his family album, can go on the internet to become a ‘NO LIMIT NIGGA!”
Why did the Sanford Police Department run a toxicology on the corpse of Trayvon Martin? Yet ignore the procedure requiring them to do the same for Zimmerman ? Weeks after the incident we are behaving just like the Sanford PD by going on a fishing expedition hoping to find something more incriminating than skittles and ice-tea. Yet face-book images, alleged marijuana use, and high school suspension, gold teeth caps, his height, and allegations that he actually tried to defend himself against his killer are the best we can come up with.
What we need to do is address the racism that is inherent in all of us “black, white, hispanic, or otherwise” that compels us to look for evidence of criminality in a dead un-armed black boy. Yet ignores the violent criminal history of past of his adult shooter, as well as the racist history of the police department which refused to arrest him.
ruksak said: It is not illegal to follow someone. Being in this proper context that Zimmerman was on neighborhood watch duty, it really isn't defensible for Tray to attack a man for following him. Assault and battery is a violent crime. Following someone that irks your suspicions is not a violent crime, it is not even a crime.
Florida Statute Chapter 784 ASSAULT; BATTERY; CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE states otherwise.
Stalking. Chapter 784 ASSAULT; BATTERY; CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE states otherwise.
(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
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