Killing unarmed black teenagers in Orlando is fine if you're white.

[Zeebadee]

This seems pretty simple to me. Since Zimmerman initiated the incident by in effect, without any legal authorization whatsoever, apparently stalking Trayvon, (from Trayvon's point of view), the only person entitled to a self defense claim would be Travon. The fact that Trayvon ended up dead only reinforces this belief.

This self-appointed cop wanna-be should never have been in the position to make this confrontation. The homeowners association of this complex is going to pay millions in a civil suit for their neglect in not getting rid of this loser, whether he ever goes to jail or not.

[Trojan_Ripper]

I didn't claim I couldn't be wrong, I said quite simply that the two sources that you link to are not exactlly what could be termed unbiased and the others that might lead some credence to your point are unsourced and might just be shit you made up. I don't know. You still haven't provided me with links...

Everything I quoted was from those links supplied. The unsourced you claim can be found through those links but here are more below that will lead more credence.

For you to claim “it might be shit that I made up”….well…debating here on volconvo, or with you, is not worth my time to make shit up and worthless if I don't try to find FACTS... instead of relying on hearsay or guessing what someone is saying by putting words in peoples mouths.

As far as the sources being biased I believe that would be the case with any source that contradicts your opinion. Any neighbor, witness, lawyer, friend, or family member just won’t be credible will they?

So, you are claiming the guy with the news organization who cleared the noise "made it" sound like he said "fucking coons"? And, if I had said, "I listened and he said, 'fucking coons' ", you would have spun in another direction and been all over my ass for claiming certainty that no one else is. I know how YOU work. When I listen, I hear the man say, "fucking coons". Am I going to believe you or my lying ears? I'm going with my ears. That is evidence. It might be evidence you don't like, but nobody disputes it is him on the recording, so...that seems a bit more concrete to me at this point than your "phantom neighbors". I'm not beyond convincing, but you aren't doing a very good job to this point.

Why don’t you supply the link to the news organization that cleared the noise and let us decide? If you’re talking about CNN both the sound engineer and the reporter couldn’t say for sure what Zimmerman was saying. If you’re talking about Lawrence O’Donnell and his interview with Trayvons family’s lawyer I’ve supplied a link. She also states that they are unsure what is said. But you know what was said don’t you?

Not my crystal ball, my ears. That is direct evidence, from his mouth, which no one has shown me is not exactally what it seems to be. When and if evidence is presented that some audio technition had some reason to "frame" Zimmerman, I will dismiss what I heard with my own ears.

Who has said anything about framing Zimmerman with audio tapes? Your ears are “direct evidence” of what? Take this super power you have and join the F.B.I. Untill these tapes are finally verified by them, (unlike you) I won’t judge a man on my ears, let alone yours.

Here are more links to be scrutinized….I didn’t bother to quote anything as these people are probably bias, phantom neighbors who didn’t actually see what they think they did, didn’t really know Zimmerman that well, are making shit up, scared to be on camera (for some odd reason)…. are lying lawyers who interviewed witnesses, and professionals who really do know what they hear, but just don’t want to admit it.

Neighbor: George Zimmerman was nice, respectful of elders | InsideNova

Alleged eyewitness backs George Zimmerman in killing of Trayvon Martin - NYPOST.com

Lawyer: Zimmerman not a racist - CNN

Trayvon Martin was punching Neighborhood Watchman when he was shot.flv - YouTube.flv - YouTube

Racial Slurs Not on OriginalTape per Trayvon Family Attorney - YouTube

George Zimmerman Voice Mail Shows Him Thanking Friend for Support

I'm not going to Judge any man or woman untill ALL the facts are in. Even you Isbskins....

[lsbskins1]

Everything I quoted was from those links supplied. The unsourced you claim can be found through those links but here are more below that will lead more credence.

For you to claim “it might be shit that I made up”….well…debating here on volconvo, or with you, is not worth my time to make shit up and worthless if I don't try to find FACTS... instead of relying on hearsay or guessing what someone is saying by putting words in peoples mouths.

As far as the sources being biased I believe that would be the case with any source that contradicts your opinion. Any neighbor, witness, lawyer, friend, or family member just won’t be credible will they?




Why don’t you supply the link to the news organization that cleared the noise and let us decide? If you’re talking about CNN both the sound engineer and the reporter couldn’t say for sure what Zimmerman was saying. If you’re talking about Lawrence O’Donnell and his interview with Trayvons family’s lawyer I’ve supplied a link. She also states that they are unsure what is said. But you know what was said don’t you?



Who has said anything about framing Zimmerman with audio tapes? Your ears are “direct evidence” of what? Take this super power you have and join the F.B.I. Untill these tapes are finally verified by them, (unlike you) I won’t judge a man on my ears, let alone yours.

Here are more links to be scrutinized….I didn’t bother to quote anything as these people are probably bias, phantom neighbors who didn’t actually see what they think they did, didn’t really know Zimmerman that well, are making shit up, scared to be on camera (for some odd reason)…. are lying lawyers who interviewed witnesses, and professionals who really do know what they hear, but just don’t want to admit it.

Neighbor: George Zimmerman was nice, respectful of elders | InsideNova

Alleged eyewitness backs George Zimmerman in killing of Trayvon Martin - NYPOST.com

Lawyer: Zimmerman not a racist - CNN

Trayvon Martin was punching Neighborhood Watchman when he was shot.flv - YouTube.flv - YouTube

Racial Slurs Not on OriginalTape per Trayvon Family Attorney - YouTube

George Zimmerman Voice Mail Shows Him Thanking Friend for Support

I'm not going to Judge any man or woman untill ALL the facts are in. Even you Isbskins....

I'm not sitting on the jury and likely won't be, since I'm not a Florida resident. My judgment is simply my own judgment based on the evidence I am aware of and my rational understanding of how the world works. I've sat on a jury and know that we were not instructed to leave our life experience outside of deliberations, but rather were instructed to apply it when judging what was credible and reasonable.

And just like I said, when I claimed the level of certainty I felt on hearing the tape, rather than being as "fair" as possible, you just flipped your spin.

And I dug in all the links in your original post and did not find the quotes you provided. And another poster failed to find them as well. If they are there, it would be a simple matter for you to follow the path you followed and link to the particular place where the quotes exist. That you didn't says something to my "common sense". If you were on the virtual witness stand, I would not give much credence to your testimony.

And just to be clear, there were friends and neighbors of more serial killers than you can shake a stick at who were willing character witnesses for years after arrests were made who were all wrong. The facts of the case, as I know them, are the facts of the case. Trayvon was not a thief. He was a kid walking home from the store. He was confronted by someone with no legal authority to stop or detain him. Zimmerman was told not to confront Martin and he chose to do so anyway. Recorded conversations bear this fact out. Zimmerman did not call 911 and say, "Holy Shit! This kid is chasing me for no reason, help me!" The individual who made that type of call was Trayvon Martin.The sad truth is that if you put the best spin possible on this situation, George Zimmerman shot an innocent kid because he was on a power trip. There is no scenario in which he is the good guy. That gives Zimmerman the benefit of every possible doubt. But...I heard the tape (and yes, it was on CNN). Yes, its going to take something more than the testimony of biased family and friends to unring that bell. I heard what I heard.

[Trojan_Ripper]

And I dug in all the links in your original post and did not find the quotes you provided. And another poster failed to find them as well. If they are there, it would be a simple matter for you to follow the path you followed and link to the particular place where the quotes exist. That you didn't says something to my "common sense". If you were on the virtual witness stand, I would not give much credence to your testimony.

Talk about spin....unbelievable.

You are supplied with everything quoted in my original post. Why not just state what you can't find and I'll gladly show you and El...sounds easy...huh? Your argument is transparent as glass...so keep on running in circles.

Also....while your at it, why don't you find an EYE witness to what happened that disputes the one I supplied you?

[barts]

Yes individuals matter, but so do group averages like IQ.

Why? In everyone's dealings it is with individuals, not a race. Or are you suggesting that an individual should be treated not as he or she merits but rather as a member of a race, and they should be assumed to exhibit the average characteristics of that race regardless of their individual characteristics?

In other words, it should be assumed that all Oriental people are smarter than all Caucasian people? And, that when making choices regarding employment, the law, or for any other reason all Orientals should be given preference over all Caucasians?

Perhaps I'm just blind to this, but I cannot fathom what race has to do with anything except prejudice.

Who cares if Orientals are smarter than Caucasians? When it comes to taking an exam or creating a work of art, it's an individual who is doing it not a race.

For the record, not one study that shows higher IQs on average for Caucasians than Blacks has identified the supposed genes that cause the effect.

[lsbskins1]

Talk about spin....unbelievable.

You are supplied with everything quoted in my original post. Why not just state what you can't find and I'll gladly show you and El...sounds easy...huh? Your argument is transparent as glass...so keep on running in circles.

Also....while your at it, why don't you find an EYE witness to what happened that disputes the one I supplied you?

We both told you already, El even very helpfully bolded the unsourced bits. What more do you need? We transparently, specifically, already did what you are claiming wasn't done. I was not as perfectly obvious, I simply stated what was sourced and asked for you to source the rest. The circle runner in this scenario is one "Trojan Ripper". We specifically were NOT supplied with links to some of your quotes.

As to your eye witness...he saw "part" of the incident. The part after Zimmerman, with no uniform, no police power or right to stop and detain, in the dark, confronted unnecessarily, a citizen engaged in no crime, returning to his own home in his own neighborhood. I'm betting there are about 3 or 4 libertarian posters on here who would have been found kicking the guys ass 2 minutes into the incident as well.

[Trojan_Ripper]

We both told you already, El even very helpfully bolded the unsourced bits. What more do you need? We transparently, specifically, already did what you are claiming wasn't done. I was not as perfectly obvious, I simply stated what was sourced and asked for you to source the rest. The circle runner in this scenario is one "Trojan Ripper". We specifically were NOT supplied with links to some of your quotes.

Go to the CNN link supplied.
Go to the story highlights on left side of page.
Highlight “Neighbors say Zimmerman is caring and polite”.
Copy.
Paste in browser.
Left click or Press enter.
Go to first CNN listed article (top of page) or Neighbors describe watch leader at center of Florida.
Left click or Press enter.
Then go from there

That’s what you and El are getting. I have no reason to “make it up” and you’re right…”I’m not running circles for either one of you”. Take it or leave it….your transparency was in knowing it’s there… but for some ODD reason you think by changing the subject off ALL the links I supplied ….you think you can influence and manipulate people reading posts that contradict your speculations and Quija board work.
People see right through this bullshit. Kind of like that “phantom neighbor” comment you accused me of. Shit….that didn’t work did it?

As to your eye witness...he saw "part" of the incident. The part after Zimmerman, with no uniform, no police power or right to stop and detain, in the dark, confronted unnecessarily, a citizen engaged in no crime, returning to his own home in his own neighborhood. I'm betting there are about 3 or 4 libertarian posters on here who would have been found kicking the guys ass 2 minutes into the incident as well.

I knew along with most.... that even an EYE WITNESS account wouldn’t be good enough for you. You won’t let yourself admit or accept the fact of an EYE WITNESS….easily seen by the showing of your short response of “he saw part of the incident”. And it sure as hell didn't stop you from immediately CHANGING THE FUCKING SUBJECT now did it?.

No Isbskins…. Having uniforms, no police power, and Libertarians (wtf) had nothing to do with what the EYE WITNESS SAW and stated to.
Now like I asked before….Where are your witnesses discounting what this one saw? Where are your links? You don’t seem to be looking for facts; is that because Zimmerman is already guilty in your opinion?

Wait for it….wait…

[BlackSheep]

No you haven't. Yes individuals matter, but so do group averages like IQ.

Why?

[lsbskins1]

Go to the CNN link supplied.
Go to the story highlights on left side of page.
Highlight “Neighbors say Zimmerman is caring and polite”.
Copy.
Paste in browser.
Left click or Press enter.
Go to first CNN listed article (top of page) or Neighbors describe watch leader at center of Florida.
Left click or Press enter.
Then go from there

That’s what you and El are getting. I have no reason to “make it up” and you’re right…”I’m not running circles for either one of you”. Take it or leave it….your transparency was in knowing it’s there… but for some ODD reason you think by changing the subject off ALL the links I supplied ….you think you can influence and manipulate people reading posts that contradict your speculations and Quija board work.
People see right through this bullshit. Kind of like that “phantom neighbor” comment you accused me of. Shit….that didn’t work did it?




I knew along with most.... that even an EYE WITNESS account wouldn’t be good enough for you. You won’t let yourself admit or accept the fact of an EYE WITNESS….easily seen by the showing of your short response of “he saw part of the incident”. And it sure as hell didn't stop you from immediately CHANGING THE FUCKING SUBJECT now did it?.

No Isbskins…. Having uniforms, no police power, and Libertarians (wtf) had nothing to do with what the EYE WITNESS SAW and stated to.
Now like I asked before….Where are your witnesses discounting what this one saw? Where are your links? You don’t seem to be looking for facts; is that because Zimmerman is already guilty in your opinion?

Wait for it….wait…

I did what you suggested and STILL did not find the quotes that both El and I questioned. I call your bluff. You made it up. Prove me wrong by pasting a direct link. If you can't, well then...

And I will very gladly paste a link to the witnesses who contradict what your's says. Right here it is:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

See how easy that is.

[Trojan_Ripper]

I did what you suggested and STILL did not find the quotes that both El and I questioned. I call your bluff. You made it up. Prove me wrong by pasting a direct link. If you can't, well then...

And I will very gladly paste a link to the witnesses who contradict what your's says. Right here it is:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

See how easy that is.

To bad for you that you can't follow directions. I know ....it's like everything else and you want someone to do it for you right?

To bad for you if you think I give a damn on your bluff bullshit. *sniffle*

To bad for you if you constantly think a witness HEARING something and a witness actually SEEING something are one in the same.

You have yet to disprove any link I have supplied. Try again. And then watch this Sundays ABC NEWS with David Muir when it's put online. You can probably get there by going to ABC.com

I hope that will be easy enough for you. Good luck.

[lsbskins1]

To bad for you that you can't follow directions. I know ....it's like everything else and you want someone to do it for you right?

To bad for you if you think I give a damn on your bluff bullshit. *sniffle*

To bad for you if you constantly think a witness HEARING something and a witness actually SEEING something are one in the same.

You have yet to disprove any link I have supplied. Try again. And then watch this Sundays ABC NEWS with David Muir when it's put online. You can probably get there by going to ABC.com

I hope that will be easy enough for you. Good luck.

Sorry you can't link to your own source. I'll let the other members reach their own conclusions about what that means about the reliability of the quotes. My guess is, if you were asked to produce a source in an academic or courtroom setting and refused, you would not be published or be held in contempt and could complain just as vociferously about the laziness of the judge or professor/review board.

And remind me again...did your witness see the whole incident? No? Then he has only partial information as well.

[Trojan_Ripper]

Sorry you can't link to your own source. I'll let the other members reach their own conclusions about what that means about the reliability of the quotes. My guess is, if you were asked to produce a source in an academic or courtroom setting and refused, you would not be published or be held in contempt and could complain just as vociferously about the laziness of the judge or professor/review board.

And remind me again...did your witness see the whole incident? No? Then he has only partial information as well.

All my links speak for themselves and I encourage members to view them. Now what about yours....or did you have any?

And remind me WHY if a partial EYE witness who saw the assault doesn't trump a witness who HEARD something and then went out AFTER the assault happened? Hmmm....that wouldn't even take a lazy judge much time to form a decision.