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**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 09:41 am

Sounds like even under the Tories, you'd be prosecuted, Samildanach:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224473.stm

Having a samurai sword and night vision goggles sounds pretty disproportionate to me! Certainly premeditated...and not instinctive!

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 09:44 am

From the article.

Quote:

The law also protects those who use "something to hand" as a weapon.

Absolutely not, the sword is ceremonial and sits on my wall as an ornament. The night vision goggles are for my night walks through the forests when I visit Europe. also so I can find my way to the fridge in the middle of the night without turning on the light and alerting the wife Im going for the midnight snack!
The fact that they sit right beside each other beside my bed is purely coincidence

Chance favours the prepared mind and all that.

**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 09:55 am

*laughs*

I hope you don't get burgled!

**Chris the Chees** · Feb 8, 2005, 10:07 am

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

*laughs*

I hope you don't get burgled!

Yeah, imagine getting the stain out of the carpet, and removing the limbs.

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 10:12 am

Im more worried about getting the skulls off the gate.

**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 10:15 am

Indeed. I opt for a 'camel stick' as my preferred form of self defence in the home - a nice, quite heavy cane-type stick used by Yemeni camel herders to hit their camels with (funnily enough!). Outreaches most things, I find.

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 10:19 am

That will be highly useful if your home is ever invaded by a herd of marauding camels, think I'll stick with my sword.

Mr.Vicchio · Feb 8, 2005, 10:24 am

Wait... isn't breaking into my home a crime??

Doesn't that very act signify this person has all ready shown the willingness to violate the law?

Thus why should I give him any more chances to prove his innocent intentions?

**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 10:27 am

Because you're not judge, jury, and executioner?

The right to self-defence is just that - the right to self-defence. Notwithstanding quotes about the best defence being a good offence, and all that, defence means defending yourself, not assaulting another person.

**Chris the Chees** · Feb 8, 2005, 10:32 am

Wait... isn't breaking into my home a crime??

A crime punishable by incarceration, not execution.

Thus why should I give him any more chances to prove his innocent intentions?

Do you suggest that we there for execute for every crime? After all they have already proven their willingness to violate the law, who knows what else they are capable of!

Next?

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 10:32 am

I would argue that invading my home is an offensive act in and of itself. Its definitely offensive to me.

**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 10:35 am

*budumtish* Give that man a drumkit & cymbals.

Yes, it's an offense, but as Chris points out, it's not one punishable by death.

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 10:40 am

I with Mr Vicchio on this one (which quite frankly surprises me) however that aside my reasoning is thus, if someone is in my house I take that as a threat to my person allowing me the recourse of defence. As there could be an imminent threat to my person I have to gauge the severity of that threat before I can determine what is reasonable force. As I CANNOT gauge the severity of the threat effectively in a dark bedroom when I am lying in bed I will have to assume a worst case scenario ie he could be a highly skilled assassin paid for by my business associates to eliminate me and I will have to defend myself as I would against such a person, which pretty much says I have to take by surprise if possible and land a killing blow to have any chance of actually surviving such an encounter. Assume the worst and hope for the best.

**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 10:43 am

Good luck in court. I really don't think you'll get very far.

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 10:45 am

Probably not. English law favours the burglars.

Quote:

Wait... isn't breaking into my home a crime??

A crime punishable by incarceration, not execution.

So theoretically I could capture the burlgar and incarcerate him in the basement until he dies of natural causes, like starvation. Very well incarceration it is in future.

**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 11:00 am

Not really. It allows you a right to self-defence. It doesn't declare open season on burglars, which is what (forgive me if I'm wrong here) you seem to be advocating. Basically, it's reinforcing that no-one is above the law.

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 11:02 am

what is the definition of self defense in English law? don't suppose you are a lawyer perchance?

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 11:08 am

Hmmm well I looked it up. Even though its a general purpose article rather than qualified legal advice.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=296

and this lead me to believe you can strike pre-emptively to kill so long as you BELIEVE the person was about to try to kill you.

Quote:

If he believes that he is about to be attacked he can strike pre-emptively. There is no requirement to retreat when attacked even if the opportunity to do so presents itself.

Quote:

If the jury decides that a person may have been acting in the honest belief that it was necessary for him to defend himself, they must then consider whether the amount of force used was reasonable taking into consideration the circumstances and the danger that person honestly believed himself to be in at the time

with the emphasis on the believed bit.

**Matt W** · Feb 8, 2005, 11:10 am

I'm not, but here's the CPS's recent guidelines. I think night-vision goggles & samurai sword probably constitutes 'setting a trap'!

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/p...seholders.html

Samildanach · Feb 8, 2005, 11:11 am

lol....I put some milk and cookies out on the veranda as well.
We had an old fat burglar dressed in red with a long white beard round the end of last year but dont worry I took care of him, buried in the garden.

Feb 8, 2005, 09:41 am	#121 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	Sounds like even under the Tories, you'd be prosecuted, Samildanach: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224473.stm Having a samurai sword and night vision goggles sounds pretty disproportionate to me! Certainly premeditated...and not instinctive! I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 09:55 am	#123 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	laughs I hope you don't get burgled! I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 10:12 am	#125 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Im more worried about getting the skulls off the gate. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Feb 8, 2005, 10:15 am	#126 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	Indeed. I opt for a 'camel stick' as my preferred form of self defence in the home - a nice, quite heavy cane-type stick used by Yemeni camel herders to hit their camels with (funnily enough!). Outreaches most things, I find. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 10:19 am	#127 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	That will be highly useful if your home is ever invaded by a herd of marauding camels, think I'll stick with my sword. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Feb 8, 2005, 10:24 am	#128 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	Wait... isn't breaking into my home a crime?? Doesn't that very act signify this person has all ready shown the willingness to violate the law? Thus why should I give him any more chances to prove his innocent intentions? Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Feb 8, 2005, 10:27 am	#129 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	Because you're not judge, jury, and executioner? The right to self-defence is just that - the right to self-defence. Notwithstanding quotes about the best defence being a good offence, and all that, defence means defending yourself, not assaulting another person. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 10:32 am	#130 (permalink) (top)
Chris the Chees Moderator Location: Wales Posts: 2,272	Wait... isn't breaking into my home a crime?? A crime punishable by incarceration, not execution. Thus why should I give him any more chances to prove his innocent intentions? Do you suggest that we there for execute for every crime? After all they have already proven their willingness to violate the law, who knows what else they are capable of! Next? Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society. Robert Owen

Feb 8, 2005, 10:32 am	#131 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	I would argue that invading my home is an offensive act in and of itself. Its definitely offensive to me. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Feb 8, 2005, 10:35 am	#132 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	budumtish Give that man a drumkit & cymbals. Yes, it's an offense, but as Chris points out, it's not one punishable by death. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 10:40 am	#133 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	I with Mr Vicchio on this one (which quite frankly surprises me) however that aside my reasoning is thus, if someone is in my house I take that as a threat to my person allowing me the recourse of defence. As there could be an imminent threat to my person I have to gauge the severity of that threat before I can determine what is reasonable force. As I CANNOT gauge the severity of the threat effectively in a dark bedroom when I am lying in bed I will have to assume a worst case scenario ie he could be a highly skilled assassin paid for by my business associates to eliminate me and I will have to defend myself as I would against such a person, which pretty much says I have to take by surprise if possible and land a killing blow to have any chance of actually surviving such an encounter. Assume the worst and hope for the best. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Feb 8, 2005, 10:43 am	#134 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	Good luck in court. I really don't think you'll get very far. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 11:00 am	#136 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	Not really. It allows you a right to self-defence. It doesn't declare open season on burglars, which is what (forgive me if I'm wrong here) you seem to be advocating. Basically, it's reinforcing that no-one is above the law. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 11:02 am	#137 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	what is the definition of self defense in English law? don't suppose you are a lawyer perchance? I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Feb 8, 2005, 11:10 am	#139 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,787	I'm not, but here's the CPS's recent guidelines. I think night-vision goggles & samurai sword probably constitutes 'setting a trap'! http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/p...seholders.html I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Feb 8, 2005, 11:11 am	#140 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	lol....I put some milk and cookies out on the veranda as well. We had an old fat burglar dressed in red with a long white beard round the end of last year but dont worry I took care of him, buried in the garden. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway) Last edited by Samildanach; Feb 8, 2005 at 11:13 am.