The Truth About Gun Control

[Scribbler1]

Are we all ignoring the fact that we are debating two DIFFERENT cultures? Here in the U.S. we have had what could be called a "gun culture" since the early days of the country. I don't know if the U.K. ever had their equivalent of our "wild west" but even if they did I'll bet we had MORE of it.
Pooey may be right that they just decided as a country that they didn't want to mess with guns. Maybe it worked for them but that's apples and oranges because it's obvious confiscatory gun control just won't work in the U.S. as it has in Britain.
This applies to BOTH sides here as we Americans usually know our own country better than foreigners and the Brits know their country a lot better than ours.

Just a thought.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio As they are real world statistics. Profound. What do they show in terms of gun crimes committed by illegally owned and obtained weapons? Nothing, NOT A DAMN THING. So what good would banning guns do based on those numbers. Nothing. Oh, Snap.

When will you get it out of your head that my point was nothing to do with the levels of legal vs illegal fire arms?

My aim was never to prove the validity of enforcing gun control but to disprove the arguments of those who attack gun legislation.

[bugsbunny04]

Quote by: Pooeypants I'm willing to accept the need of handguns for protection but shotgun and rifle? I'm not so sure about. Are you afraid the intruders might wear armoured jackets?

I dont know about you pooey, but I think my AK (semi auto and doesnt even have a mount for a bayonet) is still a lot more scary looking than my dad's 9mm pistol. And no, Im not expecting body armour, but what if the one guy I actually have to drop a hammer on is the one guy that shows up in it? You see poey, I seem to have luck like that. the only time I ever got behind the wheel without a seatbelt on was the only time I ever drove by a cop looking specifically for seatbelts. The one time I went to a party in high school was the only one that got busted by ABC and Narc. I just know if the first time I ever have to fire one of my guns in anger, if all I have is the gauge or the nine, the guy is gonna be wearing a vest. I know, superstiscion. But I cant deny patterns of luck, thus the AK.

[The Dunedan]

Dude, your luck just plain blows!
Good thing you don't live in Cali, man...with luck like that, you'd have walked into North Hollywood!

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Are we all ignoring the fact that we are debating two DIFFERENT cultures? Here in the U.S. we have had what could be called a "gun culture" since the early days of the country. I don't know if the U.K. ever had their equivalent of our "wild west" but even if they did I'll bet we had MORE of it. Pooey may be right that they just decided as a country that they didn't want to mess with guns. Maybe it worked for them but that's apples and oranges because it's obvious confiscatory gun control just won't work in the U.S. as it has in Britain. This applies to BOTH sides here as we Americans usually know our own country better than foreigners and the Brits know their country a lot better than ours. Just a thought.

Throughout this thread I've never suggested gun control for America. I was just defending against accusations such as that we're oppressed in Britain because we can't have firearms. Something which is clearly untrue.

[USMC Retired]

Quote by: Pooeypants Because statistically speaking, small time thieves here don't easy access to guns and neither do they want to. After all, they'd probably do more time for carrying guns than burglary. If I were in that situation and I saw they running away, I wouldn't shoot one of them twice in the back. Again, you seem to assume all criminals are bloodthirsty killers, where did you get this idea from?

Lets see...... it's the middle of the night. You wake up and hear at least 2 people prowling around in your house. You jump out of bed, grab your gun, and head towards the door. Halfway to your bedroom door you stop and think to yourself, "Wait a moment. 'Statistically speaking, they are just small time thieves. They don't have easy access to guns and neither do they want to. After all, they'd probably do more time for carrying guns than burglary.' What am I carrying this gun around for. Heck, I might hurt one of the precious little tykes with it. I'd better just put it back in the closet, and go back to sleep.

Again, you seem to assume all criminals are bloodthirsty killers, where did you get this idea from?

I assume that they are CRIMINALS, intruding in my home unlawfully. As such, I WILL take any and all actions I deem necessary to protect my family. If one of the "precious little tykes" gets hurt and/or KILLED in the process, oh well. Too bad, so sad. I'll put flowers on his grave! Better that than him putting them on my grave, or the grave of one of my family members.

In my opinion, your precious little tykes forfeited all rights to life, liberty, and DUE PROCESS, the moment they invaded my home. From that point on they are at risk to WHATEVER happens to them.

[USMC Retired]

By the way, a few post back, I went out and found statistical data showing that gun ownership by private citizens REDUCES crime. Interesting..... the anti-gun nuts went rather quite on those posts.

I wonder why????

* Between 1977 and 1992, 10 states adopted right-to-carry laws. Dr. Lott's study found that the implementation of these laws created:

-- no change in suicide rates,
-- a .5% rise in accidental firearm deaths,
-- a 5% decline in rapes,
-- a 7% decline in aggravated assaults,
-- and an 8% decline in murder

for the 10 states that adopted these laws between 1977 and 1992. (7)

* Using 1995 numbers, this amounts to:

-- 1 more accidental gun death,
-- 316 less murders,
-- 939 less rapes,
-- and 14,702 less aggravated assaults

in these 10 states annually. (16)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:
_______________________________Florida__________Un ited States
homicide rate______________________-36%_____________-.4%
firearm homicide rate________________-37%____________+15%
handgun homicide rate_______________-41%____________+24%

[Matt W]

Ah, the joys of ignoring 'innocent 'til proven guilty'....

Seriously. Fine, do whatever you wish, USMC Retired. Try not to insult other countries that don't, and won't adopt your position, willya?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Pooeypants Throughout this thread I've never suggested gun control for America. I was just defending against accusations such as that we're oppressed in Britain because we can't have firearms. Something which is clearly untrue.

I wasn't singling you or anyone else out, Pooey. I just noticed the discussion was veering in that direction. A lot of Americans get tense when the suggestion is made to take away our guns, whether the suggestion is actually made or not.

[Chris the Chees]

Ex marine corps - those statistics are on a local area, many different facts can contribute to those statistics, which on a national scale, wouldn’t have much effect.

But you still have not answered my question. If gun ownership is a deterrent to crime, why does America (gun free, and trigger happy) have a greater violent crime problem than the UK, which has always had quite stringent gun control measures. Of course my question is a rather hard one for you to answer as its answer may well contradict your ideological dogma, but I still want you to answer... unless of course you can't.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Why do we? Because we have more guns...

That's really what we call a no duh questions.

[Matt W]

And that, Mr. V, is why we don't want them.

It's what we call 'stating the bleedin' obvious'.

[blibbka]

Ummm, I think that just about wraps it up then

[Mr.Vicchio]

There are 200 million guns estimated in America.

There are 350 Million Americans.

Statistics increase the likely hood of gun crime.

Duh.

You don't want them, thats fine. I am not telling you to allow guns in the UK. Can you tell me where I said you should? I am talking about America Vs the UK and how banning guns in America is just a dumb idea. We have a history of Gun ownership, thus guns are more prevalent. Removing guns from the law abaiding owners does ONE thing. Make criminals safer.


Personally, I would fear living in a country that took the stance criminals had rights and deserved protection from homeowners...

That's just me though

[Matt W]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio And you glorify cowardice in the face of crime. I love it.

No, Mr. V, you haven't told us to allow guns in the UK. And that's just fine with me. You have, however, accused me (and possibly the rest of the UK...it's somewhat unclear) of cowardice when faced with burglars...simply 'cause I don't believe in gunning them down.

And yes, I believe that criminals have rights. So does the rest of the world. So does the US Consitution, I believe. And so did Jesus. Next?

[Matt W]

It's a wonderful thing, this 'rule of law', isn't it?

Just occured to me...this debate has at the heart of it the role of the houseowner in this theoretical situation. Is he/she above the law, simpy because they are on private property? Universally, I believe the answer is no. However, should they be?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Criminals have rights. Yes they do. They have rights.

But they do not supercede my right to defend myself.

By entering into my home unlawfully, they have forfited such rights.

Gunning them down is a perfectally acceptable way to deal with the problem, better they die then my family.

Perhaps you don't see it that way. BTW The US constitution, gives me the right to kill them. Sorry.

[Matt W]

A 'perfectly acceptable way to deal with the problem'?

Good grief. Again, killing people for potential crime rather than actual crime seems to me to neatly sidestep 'guilty 'til proven innocent', and several other cornerstones of law. I don't believe there's a death penalty for trespass, is there?

*shrugs* Still, you have your way, I have mine
.

[Chris the Chees]

Ahh the US constitution the world most valued toilet paper. This incidentally has been ignored or altered repeatedly over history, when ever it suits US law makers (see George W Bush for reference). It is also rather unclear, some claim the constitution gives them the right to own guns, and others say it gives a militia the right to own guns. As it happens having discussed this with my American peers in the past, the former are correct.

We in the UK have no single document, thank god, and we don't have whining conservatives complaining that their constitutional rights are being infringed, when we outlaw sadism.

[Samildanach]

Hmmm, I am currently living in Britain and while I do not advocate owning guns (due to the fact I like being able to walk around the city, through dark alleys and whatnot without looking over my shoulder all the time) and gunning down people walking around in my living room after dark, I definitely would prefer the law to be changed so I could use whatever force I thought was required at the time whether that was lethal force or not. I happen to agree with the fact that once people enter your house they will reap the whirlwind, which is why I own a rather large sharp samurai sword and some night vision goggles. If I go to jail after having killed them and stuck their heads on my spiked fence rail outside my gate then thats their bad luck for being in my house after dark. Theres more than one way to defend yourself in a gunless society. So burglars have rights in the law, as far as I am concerned as soon as someone enters my house after dark they have forfeited those rights,its potentially my family or them, which is no contest. If I have to go to jail to defend my family thats also no choice, jail it is. I still disagree with guns but I do agree with the right to defend yourself by whatever means necessary on your own property.