Americans & Guns

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Mozart1220, Do you realise that if the government really wanted to, they could ban all guns except, say, BB guns and the constitution would be served? Actually it doesn't even protect guns, it says "arms", and anything used as a weapon could be considered "arms". A person could be "armed" with a pointed stick or a club. Guns aren't even specificly mentioned in the constitution. I believe RESPONSIBLE people should be allowed to own guns, but it's the "gun nuts" of the country that are going to scare people into tougher legislation. They are hurting their own cause by their fanatisizm. No one paid much attention to Koresh and the Davidians in Waco until they started stockpiling weapons. Sounds like you listen to alot of Rush Limbaugh and other Right wing extremists. The Dividians were bringing in hand grenade casings, which was reported by the UPS driver that delivered them. They also ordered many weapons, which were modified to automatic status with a "hell-fire" devise. I was working for KTKK radio in Salt Lake City and we covered this story from the beginning. I even talked to Koresh's Mother who confirmed many of the reports of weapon stockpiling. They were not "murdered" by Clinton. They (Koresh) brought this on themselves. They hid behoind innocent children. The FBI gave them ample time to give up peacefully. MIstakes were made true, but the FBI was NOT at fault. I wonder how you would have felt about the same situation had Reagan or BUsh been president and done the same thing. Probably you would have seen this "peaceful church" as it was. A mislead, group of people going down the same path as Jonestown. Holding brainwashed people against thier will, and killing themselves when they knew the truth was about to come out. End of story? I doubt it.

Anyone who would like a Libertarian viewpoint on the events of Waco should look for the book, Send In the Waco Killers by Vin Suprynowicz
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books
Excerpt from Amazon's review see the reference for other penetrating reviews:

Book Description The Toboggan Ride to Tyranny Your right to trial by a randomly selected jury -- not one stacked with jurors who swear to convict in advance -- is gone. The IRS can now seize your bank account, paycheck, and house -- without so much as a judge's order. Your banker will help them. Vietnam veterans and their wives, and 68-year-old engineers, are in federal prisons on "drug" charges -- despite the fact they never sold, touched, or even saw a single gram of cocaine or marijuana. The Founders guaranteed Americans the right to keep and bear arms for defense against their own government. But the meager legal arms of the Branch Davidians were no match for government tanks and helicopters at Waco. National gun registration led to confiscation in oncr-free England and Australia. And national gun registration began in the U.S. on December 1, 1998. How did we get to this point? Is there any peaceful way back from the toboggan ride to tyranny? The answers are in "Send in the Waco Killers," by America's syndicated Libertarian columnist, Vin Suprynowicz.

As for "right-wing extremist", Rush Limbaugh- he's a pompous, drug-using liar, supporter of the illegitimate, status quo, constitutionless imperial presidency. His rants are a smoke-screen for the advance of the New World Order, in my opinion. Why do you listen to government liars of the "left" or "right"? CIA needs to be put out of the journalism business.

[dotcoma]

Careful now. The FEDS have sent flyers out to local law enforcement stating that anyone that quotes Bush and Clinton's calling for a "New World Order" and global government is a "right wing extremist" and the that the FBI should be contacted.

[dotcoma]

"Makes numerous references to the constitution"....we're F#cked.

[Automatic Nate]

Also amusing is the call to report any sightings of "weapons of mass destruction." They're so elusive, the FBI is going "America's Most Wanted" on their asses now!

Hmm... what exactly is a "non-aligned terrorist"? Wouldn't their tires wear out before they got to their target?

[commonsense]

WOW! ROXDOG!
...Thanks for really ruining my day and thanks in advance for the nightmares i'll certainly have tonight! What the f*ck!!!

I'm surprised they're not rounding-up the entire Constitution and Libertarian Parties right now!!!!!!!

[dotcoma]

Print them out and spread the word. All we can do is educate those around us. That flyer is a huge smoking gun. I have a few friends that thought I was a nutcase until they saw that flyer. It's quite telling to say the least. I've got footage of a FEMA employee talking about how the Founding Fathers (of the US) and Christians are "terrorists".

Rox. You've gotta be shitting me. Is that a real flier distributed by the FBI?
Where did you get it?

[The Dunedan]

HI all. I registered just to respond to this post, and hav't yet figured out the quoting system yet, so bear with me.

On the Waco thing:
Grenade casings; You can buy these at any Army/Navy store. They are totally useless without fuses, and are popular as "complaint Dept." decorations. Besides which, as someone else has said, they were never mentioned on any of the warrants, or in the investigations which followed the incident.

Automatic weapons; there were none present. This entire thing was a canard; a "big lie" repeated until it becomes accepted as truth.

Sexual abuse; another canard. Never happened. This was admitted in a memo sent from FBI Director Louis Freech to AtGen Reno about 30 days into the standoff. It was soon after this that the "meth lab" story was cooked up; a story which was conveniantly never mentioned again once it was discovered that no such equipment existed.

"Koresh thought he was Jesus." So?

CS Tear-gas; Illegal to use in war, under Geneva and Hauge Conventions. It's not actually a gas, but a very fine spray of CS crystals mixed with Kerosene. Not only is this stuff fatal to athsmatics and small children, but it is highly flammable. Probably something to do with all that atomized K-1 floating around. When it burns, it is converted into Hydrogen Cyanide gas; given how -easily- this stuff burns, it's not exactly a surprise. Janet Reno's degree was in Chemistry in undergrad school. She KNEW what this stuff did, and still ordered it used against a building full of kids.

Casualties; all but one of the ATF casualties in the original raid were caused when these asshats panicked and started spraying wildly with armour-piercing ammo. One BATFeeb shot himself in both feet. At no point did the Davidians fire on the retreating agents.

The Fire: Ok. This one takes awhile. Imagine a largely enclosed structure, filled with highly flammable chemical agent. Now imagine that several converted M-60A3 tanks are milling around outside, knocking things over, striking sparks, and generally making neusances of themselves. Now, imagine that several Delta Force soldiers are lobbing CS grenades which use a pyrotechnic bursting charge into aforementioned gas-filled structure. Doesn't take much imagination to see how a fire could get started.
Up until this point, this entire thing could be written off as an unfortunate, criminally neglectful, accident. However, the Fed in charge that day did not call the Fire Dept. until seven minutes after the fire visibly breached the walls of the Church. When he -did- call it in, he gave instructions for the trucks to be delayed at -all- the checkpoints leading to the Church itself. By so doing, he -ensured- that the building burned to the ground, as did everyone inside. Additionally, medics who were on-scene with the ATF and HRT were not allowed to approach the building.

The Shooting; This is where it gets truly sick. The few Davidians who escaped the building reported coming under automatic-weapons fire from -outside- the structure. FLIR ( IR ) video shot by a helicopter orbiting the scene confirms this. The Clinton/Bush Justice Dept's have tried to 'test away' this theory, but conducted their 'tests' using the wrong rifles, with the wrong ammunition, and under the wrong conditions. Later, independant tests showed that the flashes in the FLIR tape were, in fact, muzzle-flash from automatic rifles. Attempts to explain away the flashes as being 'light reflected off debris' are silly at best; sunlight does not show up well on FLIR, and the flashes were of such duration and consistancy that the odds of them being randomly-reflected light, of any kind, are too long to be seriously considered.
Additonal credence is lent to this by the facts that; not only was the first casualty of this disaster Koresh's 9-mont-old daughter, shot in his arms as he answered the door, but also that a helicopter orbiting the scene when the initial raid went down expended several belts of 7.62mm ammunition firing at random into the rood of the Church; a building known to contain non-combatants and children.

The Press: Moved back a mile from the scene the morning of the fire. Accident?



So. We have a trumped-up charge used to execute a brutal raid, during which the BATFeebs manage, through their own incompetance, to injure more of their own than the Davidians do. We have a 51-day siege during which the power, water, and heat are turned off on a building full of kids. We have a fire ( possibly accidental ) which the local FD is prevented from responding to, and from which the Davidians are prevented escaping, being fired upon by automatic weapons. We have the press beinc conveniantly moved out of the way. In the aftermath, we have the Davidians cleared of all charges...AND LOCKED UP ANYWAY.

So, the next time someone asks you "why do you want..." or "why do you need..." or "Do you REALLY think our Govornment would..." point to this incident and say "That's why." Then bring up the MOVE bombing, if they want precedent.

For sources, please consult
"Send In the Waco Killers" and "the Balland of Carl Drega," by Vin S.
"Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. Fictional, but includes bibliography.
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.massacre.html
http://www.waco93.com/faq.htm


On the flyer:
Yup. FBI started printing those a few years ago, and hav't stopped. Ramped up production post-9/11, in fact, when all the furor about USA PATRIOT was going on.

[commonsense]

I think I speak for more than just a few on this site when I say
Thank you Dunedan! for an informative and enlightening synopsis.

I look forward to reading more of your posts, try not to become frustrated and discouraged by what else you encounter here. Welcome.

I second Commensence's comment. Stick around Dunedan, post a few more responses.

[Mozart1220]

Had Bush Sr. done what Clinton did under the circumstances, he'd have been a hero. All you are spewing is propaganda. Koresh could have come out and saved them all, instead, he hid behind children like the coward he was and his guys set fire to the place.

What would the government have to gain by the scenario you describe? NOTHING. What would they have to lose? EVERYTHING.

Just another propaganda scenario to blame on Clinton. Sad, very sad.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Mozart1220, Had Bush Sr. done what Clinton did under the circumstances, he'd have been a hero. All you are spewing is propaganda. Koresh could have come out and saved them all, instead, he hid behind children like the coward he was and his guys set fire to the place. What would the government have to gain by the scenario you describe? NOTHING. What would they have to lose? EVERYTHING. Just another propaganda scenario to blame on Clinton. Sad, very sad.

Bubba, you don't get it. It is both of these sorry good for nothing, gungrabbing, constitution bending petty tyrants that are being indicted here in this "Guns" thread. Waco is the naked face of the Police State that continues unabated under Emperor W with the USA PATRIOT act. Law abiding citizens are in this together, and the enemy resides in every Federal building. They have siezed power and are ignoring the Tenth Amendment limiting their authority. They are wrong, even demented, but very well armed. The constitution must be restored in order for this to end.

Your question as to what the government had to gain or lose is interesting...
As for propaganda, you are appparently wolfing it down from the lying CIA-paid media. You are so convinced that you won't even look at the links, huh? All the official stories are black lies

[Helter]

Originally posted by Mozart1220, What would the government have to gain by the scenario you describe? NOTHING. What would they have to lose? EVERYTHING.

What did they have to gain? Maybe some face after the ruby ridge debacle?

Just another propaganda scenario to blame on Clinton. Sad, very sad.

Yeah, that's right. The fact that all of their evidence was either manufactured or trumped up doesn't matter, the fact that the agencies involved acted to greatly endanger the many known children, women and non-combatants inside doesn't matter, the fact that they *never actually attempted to server their warrant* doesn't matter, the fact that they were *invited in by the davidians* doesn't matter...
Because it was clinton, obviously it's all a conspiracy. Because after all, Clintons government couldn't have done anything for self serving reasons, could they?

[The Dunedan]

Mozart;
PH beat me to it on this one. Republicrat, Democrap, it doesn't matter; a Statist is a Statist is a Statist.
They both steal your money, and use it to kill innocent people. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Iraq, take your pick.
They both kill you, whenever they like, however they like, and get away with it.
They both spy on people, without warrants.
They both violate the Constitution, on a daily basis, to further their ends and power.
They both want you disarmed. "pro-gun" Bushites, please note Bush's position on the AWB, arming pilots, etc etc etc.

Party doesn't matter. Race doesn't matter. Sex doesn't matter. Religion doesn't matter. Either they're looking out for your liberty ( Ron Paul, Aaron Russo, Helen Chenowith ) or they're actively working to destroy it ( all the rest ).

[dotcoma]

Originally posted by The Dunedan, HI all. I registered just to respond to this post, and hav't yet figured out the quoting system yet, so bear with me. On the Waco thing: Grenade casings; You can buy these at any Army/Navy store. They are totally useless without fuses, and are popular as "complaint Dept." decorations. Besides which, as someone else has said, they were never mentioned on any of the warrants, or in the investigations which followed the incident. Automatic weapons; there were none present. This entire thing was a canard; a "big lie" repeated until it becomes accepted as truth. Sexual abuse; another canard. Never happened. This was admitted in a memo sent from FBI Director Louis Freech to AtGen Reno about 30 days into the standoff. It was soon after this that the "meth lab" story was cooked up; a story which was conveniantly never mentioned again once it was discovered that no such equipment existed. "Koresh thought he was Jesus." So? CS Tear-gas; Illegal to use in war, under Geneva and Hauge Conventions. It's not actually a gas, but a very fine spray of CS crystals mixed with Kerosene. Not only is this stuff fatal to athsmatics and small children, but it is highly flammable. Probably something to do with all that atomized K-1 floating around. When it burns, it is converted into Hydrogen Cyanide gas; given how -easily- this stuff burns, it's not exactly a surprise. Janet Reno's degree was in Chemistry in undergrad school. She KNEW what this stuff did, and still ordered it used against a building full of kids. Casualties; all but one of the ATF casualties in the original raid were caused when these asshats panicked and started spraying wildly with armour-piercing ammo. One BATFeeb shot himself in both feet. At no point did the Davidians fire on the retreating agents. The Fire: Ok. This one takes awhile. Imagine a largely enclosed structure, filled with highly flammable chemical agent. Now imagine that several converted M-60A3 tanks are milling around outside, knocking things over, striking sparks, and generally making neusances of themselves. Now, imagine that several Delta Force soldiers are lobbing CS grenades which use a pyrotechnic bursting charge into aforementioned gas-filled structure. Doesn't take much imagination to see how a fire could get started. Up until this point, this entire thing could be written off as an unfortunate, criminally neglectful, accident. However, the Fed in charge that day did not call the Fire Dept. until seven minutes after the fire visibly breached the walls of the Church. When he -did- call it in, he gave instructions for the trucks to be delayed at -all- the checkpoints leading to the Church itself. By so doing, he -ensured- that the building burned to the ground, as did everyone inside. Additionally, medics who were on-scene with the ATF and HRT were not allowed to approach the building. The Shooting; This is where it gets truly sick. The few Davidians who escaped the building reported coming under automatic-weapons fire from -outside- the structure. FLIR ( IR ) video shot by a helicopter orbiting the scene confirms this. The Clinton/Bush Justice Dept's have tried to 'test away' this theory, but conducted their 'tests' using the wrong rifles, with the wrong ammunition, and under the wrong conditions. Later, independant tests showed that the flashes in the FLIR tape were, in fact, muzzle-flash from automatic rifles. Attempts to explain away the flashes as being 'light reflected off debris' are silly at best; sunlight does not show up well on FLIR, and the flashes were of such duration and consistancy that the odds of them being randomly-reflected light, of any kind, are too long to be seriously considered. Additonal credence is lent to this by the facts that; not only was the first casualty of this disaster Koresh's 9-mont-old daughter, shot in his arms as he answered the door, but also that a helicopter orbiting the scene when the initial raid went down expended several belts of 7.62mm ammunition firing at random into the rood of the Church; a building known to contain non-combatants and children. The Press: Moved back a mile from the scene the morning of the fire. Accident? So. We have a trumped-up charge used to execute a brutal raid, during which the BATFeebs manage, through their own incompetance, to injure more of their own than the Davidians do. We have a 51-day siege during which the power, water, and heat are turned off on a building full of kids. We have a fire ( possibly accidental ) which the local FD is prevented from responding to, and from which the Davidians are prevented escaping, being fired upon by automatic weapons. We have the press beinc conveniantly moved out of the way. In the aftermath, we have the Davidians cleared of all charges...AND LOCKED UP ANYWAY. So, the next time someone asks you "why do you want..." or "why do you need..." or "Do you REALLY think our Govornment would..." point to this incident and say "That's why." Then bring up the MOVE bombing, if they want precedent. For sources, please consult "Send In the Waco Killers" and "the Balland of Carl Drega," by Vin S. "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. Fictional, but includes bibliography. http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.massacre.html http://www.waco93.com/faq.htm On the flyer: Yup. FBI started printing those a few years ago, and hav't stopped. Ramped up production post-9/11, in fact, when all the furor about USA PATRIOT was going on.

Awesome.

[dotcoma]

Originally posted by Mozart1220, Had Bush Sr. done what Clinton did under the circumstances, he'd have been a hero. All you are spewing is propaganda. Koresh could have come out and saved them all, instead, he hid behind children like the coward he was and his guys set fire to the place. What would the government have to gain by the scenario you describe? NOTHING. What would they have to lose? EVERYTHING. Just another propaganda scenario to blame on Clinton. Sad, very sad.

NOTHING would change if Bush Sr. was in office. That is a ridiculous notion. Research my past posts. This isn't a partisan issue. Would you give your kids over to a bunch of black ski masked thugs who are mimicking slitting their throats? The FEDS had no right to roll in the way they did. The FEDS shot first. They could of arrested him when he went jogging every day. The sheriff was and is very close to the Davidians. The raid was a dog and pony show. There is a another story to tell about what went on BEHIND the building. GO DO THE RESEARCH before you accuse anyone of muckraking.

[VXerick]

No one has mentioned the Elian Gonzales case. No matter whether you thought he belonged with his father or should have stayed withn those relative in Florida, was his "rescue" really how we want our justice department using the FBI?

I'm not sure I think the FBI should even exist. It seems to be used and abused by all three branches of the government. And a more arrogant bunch would probably be hard to find. I'm wondering if J. Edgar Hoover left a mark on that organization, that can never be erased.

And the BATF isn't much better. I don't believe our government through our Constitution was meant to be run by agencies involved in undermining citizen's rights. If anything, the people should be in charge of protecting their own rights. Especially since we can no longer trust our representatives to do it for us.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by commonsense, WOW! ROXDOG! ...Thanks for really ruining my day and thanks in advance for the nightmares i'll certainly have tonight! What the f*ck!!! I'm surprised they're not rounding-up the entire Constitution and Libertarian Parties right now!!!!!!!

I wonder why they aren't. Perhaps they passify the issues.

[bugsbunny04]

Originally posted by roxdog, "Makes numerous references to the constitution"....we're F#cked.

I was about to say "Since when is "making numerous references to the constitution" criminal activity? Is the cosntitution not the document that sais we exist as a nation, just as the declaration of independence sais we have a right to?" But I agree with your statement too.

[bugsbunny04]

Originally posted by Mozart1220,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mozart1220,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-ConservativeX, I will restate my question so it doesn't get lost: Is there any person here who favors gun control that would support licensing efforts of your other rights in the Bill of Rights?

THE BILL OF RIGHTS SAYS "WELL REGULATED MILITIA"!!!!!


Why do you keep convieniently leaving that out? besides, I doubt the founding fathers had automatic weapons and armour piercing bullets in mind. I doub't they thought 12 year olds would take thier father's guns to school and kill thier classmates.

In a "technical" sense, the constitution protects "arms" it doesn't even mention guns. you could carry a big rock and the constitution is served.

True, the gun doesn't kill, but without it, most cowardly gangsters and "militia members" couldn't kill either.[/b][/quote]

For the purpose of the second amendment, at the time it was written, "militia" means people who are NOT government officials or milpers and DO have guns of a type that would be suitable for the current battlefield, "well regulated" means they know how to implement such weapons in a responsible and effective manner. Arms, in the usage of the day, reffered to weapons suitable for use by infantry. At the time it meant a large calibre musket and bayonet. A few hundred years before that, it would have ref'd a broad sword or a spear or a bow or crossbow. Today, it would quite logically ref any functional equivilant to the Kalashnikov family of rifles.

You think these people spoke ebonics or what? They did not speak the same language as you, or anybody else who is ignorant enough not to speakizzle englizzle, fo shizzle. You have to take into account the late 18th century vernaculizzle. And no I'm not being racist, I'm just pointing out that you don't understand the way they talk anymore that George Washington would understand a f*ckin thing from a 50 Cent record.