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tinybear · Jan 27, 2005, 04:53 am

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - Judi Howden went into her marriage knowing full well that one day her husband might become her wife.

The couple stayed together - even as Howden's husband, Michael, underwent a sex-change operation that transformed him into Mikayla. That surgery also landed them in a murky area where gender and law collide.

Their marriage - once between a man and a woman - is now between a woman and a woman, despite a ban on such unions in 40 states, including New Hampshire.

Their experience highlights a legal Catch-22. While states can either recognize or refuse to recognize someone's new gender following a sex change, either decision inescapably permits some form of same-sex marriage.

If the gender change is recognized, then existing, heterosexual marriages such as the Howdens' become same-sex. If recognition is denied, a de facto same-sex marriage emerges since the spouses' genders differ only on paper, not visibly.

``I have no answer to it,'' said state Rep. Dan Itse, a Republican who supports the state's same-sex marriage ban. ``We have ventured where angels fear to tread.''

Where do you stand on the issue? What's the answer to this legal conundrum?

Full Story: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...60.htm&sc=1110

Mr.Vicchio · Jan 27, 2005, 05:22 am

Actually, it's not a big deal legally. There was a case in Texas where a "transexual" was declared a man because of genetics. I forget the details, but that's how it all worked out.

She is still a he biologically, the surgery is merely cosmetic.

tinybear · Jan 27, 2005, 05:28 am

So we disregard the 'de facto' situation and treat the change in sex as if it never happened? Hmmm...I wonder what happens if 'he' applies for a job at Victoria's Secret selling lingerie and the customers complain?

Starboy · Jan 27, 2005, 10:30 am

It all comes back to marriage being more than being about sex or procreation. What makes it appear odd is that people somehow think that the sex change would necessarily change their commitment to each other. I see it no differently than if he had cancer of the testis and they had to cut the whole thing off and he now has to pee through a tube. If the partners see the relationship in a context larger than sex then it may not matter and if the partners see the sex as the primary reason for the marriage then all bets are off. The funny thing about this is that for partners where all these issues have been placed on the table prior to the marriage and they still wish to be married no one seems to think that they should be denied such a union because they will not be having sex or sex in the usual way, except for gays. What appears to bother people is not that people would have unusual sex but that they would have unusual sex if they were equipped to have usual sex.

Starboy

tinybear · Jan 27, 2005, 02:41 pm

Whatever anyone says, I'd be pretty pissed off if the guy I marry turns himself into a girl afterwards, wouldn't you?

Milton Bradley · Jan 27, 2005, 03:14 pm

Just like any civil union, the law has no bisiness coming between a man, and his God, or absence of God.

Just like my reply to the same sex marraige thread, I say that the Church defines marraige, not the courts.

I thought this was a free country.

RickSp · Jan 27, 2005, 03:22 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Milton Bradley

Just like my reply to the same sex marraige thread, I say that the Church defines marraige, not the courts.

The Church may define marriage for believers, but the courts define contract laws, property rights and obligations, all of which are defined in the legal statutes defining marriage. Folks who are not "legally" married do not recieve the various benefits provided by law.

Milton Bradley · Jan 27, 2005, 03:29 pm

The various benefits that are provided by law are almost all unconstitutional.

Hey, lets let them get married to take full advantage of those illegal tax breaks. Yea!

mr.perfecto · Jan 27, 2005, 03:52 pm

If the male asserts that he is a female, the marriage should be annuled as New Hampshire state law requires.

Suburbanite · Jan 27, 2005, 04:32 pm

why do you care so much?

Starboy · Jan 27, 2005, 04:34 pm

mr.perfecto cannot abide by imperfections even if he or anyone else ever have to know about it.

Starboy

Mr.Vicchio · Jan 27, 2005, 05:17 pm

It's a sad situation, because these people really do, 90% of the time, need the surgery and I respect them greatly for having the courage to follow thier dreams. That being said... they are still "Male" by genetics, and no matter what it looks like, thats still an inverted penis, not a vagina.

So the issue is moot.

For legal standing in most things, they are considered female though.

tinybear · Jan 28, 2005, 12:57 am

Quote:

Quote by: mr.perfecto

If the male asserts that he is a female, the marriage should be annuled as New Hampshire state law requires.

What does California law say?

SVMc · Feb 4, 2005, 11:56 pm

Well if gay marriage is leagalized this is a moot point because marriage is then between two consenting adults, regardless of gender. Why would it matter?

Mr.Vicchio · Feb 5, 2005, 05:06 pm

Until that time, it does matter.

Someone who has a sex change is not really of the opposite sex.. just cosmetically altered. A lot of this comes from misunderstanding CDsTVs and TGs. Each is a group and is different.

Did you know most CD's and TV's are striaght, often white married males?

Most Transgendered people of the last decades were in thier 40's, many were retired military often times Marine or Army.

As TransGendered people are more accepted by society, they don't feel they have to "prove thier manhood" and come out earlier.

Drag Queens, are as Wesly Snipes I do believe stated in Too Wong Foo, "Gay men with a superior sense of style"

MerlinsByte · Feb 5, 2005, 07:52 pm

Transexual Marriages: Where Angels Fear To Tread?

Merlin writes.....I have no problem accepting a transgender as female or male. This question is an easy one. Just wait until we can fully genetically/machine/interface/engineer humans! I hope I'm long gone by then. dead. It will be a nightmare.I see it happening (human engineering, not my death) in less than 20 years...damn!

mb

SVMc · Feb 10, 2005, 02:23 pm

Quote:

Mr. V
Until that time, it does matter.

Well I guess it doesn't matter than...

I'm not from the states,

Gay marriage is legal here.

Quote:

Mr. VDid you know most CD's and TV's are striaght, often white married males?

In fact I did. One of the best courses I took in University was Sex & Gender taught by a white straight male TV. But Transsexuality is something different from CD & TV. People who cross dress do it for emotional of physical gratification. Transgendered people literally feel as though they have the wrong body. Someone who is transgendered feels as thought they are the wrong sex, interestingly enough this is separate from their sexuality, because a transgendered person may still be attracted to males or females making them gay or straight pre and post op.

Mr.Vicchio · Feb 10, 2005, 03:09 pm

Very good. Most TV's or CD's are just doing it for kicks of some sort. Wear panites under thier clothes to be rebels... they often will not fully dress up and rarely "live" as women for any period of time.

TG's on the otherhand, are ys, people that feel they are of the opposite sex. And even a pre-op that sleeps with other men, may consider themselves as striaght, even if both parties have the same equipment.

Jan 27, 2005, 04:53 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,002	Transexual Marriages: Where Angels Fear To Tread? CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - Judi Howden went into her marriage knowing full well that one day her husband might become her wife. The couple stayed together - even as Howden's husband, Michael, underwent a sex-change operation that transformed him into Mikayla. That surgery also landed them in a murky area where gender and law collide. Their marriage - once between a man and a woman - is now between a woman and a woman, despite a ban on such unions in 40 states, including New Hampshire. Their experience highlights a legal Catch-22. While states can either recognize or refuse to recognize someone's new gender following a sex change, either decision inescapably permits some form of same-sex marriage. If the gender change is recognized, then existing, heterosexual marriages such as the Howdens' become same-sex. If recognition is denied, a de facto same-sex marriage emerges since the spouses' genders differ only on paper, not visibly. ``I have no answer to it,'' said state Rep. Dan Itse, a Republican who supports the state's same-sex marriage ban. ``We have ventured where angels fear to tread.'' Where do you stand on the issue? What's the answer to this legal conundrum? Full Story: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...60.htm&sc=1110

Jan 27, 2005, 05:22 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Actually, it's not a big deal legally. There was a case in Texas where a "transexual" was declared a man because of genetics. I forget the details, but that's how it all worked out. She is still a he biologically, the surgery is merely cosmetic. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Jan 27, 2005, 05:17 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	It's a sad situation, because these people really do, 90% of the time, need the surgery and I respect them greatly for having the courage to follow thier dreams. That being said... they are still "Male" by genetics, and no matter what it looks like, thats still an inverted penis, not a vagina. So the issue is moot. For legal standing in most things, they are considered female though. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Feb 5, 2005, 05:06 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Until that time, it does matter. Someone who has a sex change is not really of the opposite sex.. just cosmetically altered. A lot of this comes from misunderstanding CDsTVs and TGs. Each is a group and is different. Did you know most CD's and TV's are striaght, often white married males? Most Transgendered people of the last decades were in thier 40's, many were retired military often times Marine or Army. As TransGendered people are more accepted by society, they don't feel they have to "prove thier manhood" and come out earlier. Drag Queens, are as Wesly Snipes I do believe stated in Too Wong Foo, "Gay men with a superior sense of style" Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Feb 5, 2005, 07:52 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
MerlinsByte BANNED Posts: 1,267	Trangender OK Transexual Marriages: Where Angels Fear To Tread? Merlin writes.....I have no problem accepting a transgender as female or male. This question is an easy one. Just wait until we can fully genetically/machine/interface/engineer humans! I hope I'm long gone by then. dead. It will be a nightmare.I see it happening (human engineering, not my death) in less than 20 years...damn! mb Last edited by MerlinsByte; Feb 5, 2005 at 07:56 pm. Reason: grammer

Jan 27, 2005, 05:28 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,002	So we disregard the 'de facto' situation and treat the change in sex as if it never happened? Hmmm...I wonder what happens if 'he' applies for a job at Victoria's Secret selling lingerie and the customers complain?

Jan 27, 2005, 10:30 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	It all comes back to marriage being more than being about sex or procreation. What makes it appear odd is that people somehow think that the sex change would necessarily change their commitment to each other. I see it no differently than if he had cancer of the testis and they had to cut the whole thing off and he now has to pee through a tube. If the partners see the relationship in a context larger than sex then it may not matter and if the partners see the sex as the primary reason for the marriage then all bets are off. The funny thing about this is that for partners where all these issues have been placed on the table prior to the marriage and they still wish to be married no one seems to think that they should be denied such a union because they will not be having sex or sex in the usual way, except for gays. What appears to bother people is not that people would have unusual sex but that they would have unusual sex if they were equipped to have usual sex. Starboy

Jan 27, 2005, 02:41 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,002	Whatever anyone says, I'd be pretty pissed off if the guy I marry turns himself into a girl afterwards, wouldn't you?

Jan 27, 2005, 03:14 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Milton Bradley BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320	Just like any civil union, the law has no bisiness coming between a man, and his God, or absence of God. Just like my reply to the same sex marraige thread, I say that the Church defines marraige, not the courts. I thought this was a free country.

Jan 27, 2005, 03:29 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Milton Bradley BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320	The various benefits that are provided by law are almost all unconstitutional. Hey, lets let them get married to take full advantage of those illegal tax breaks. Yea!

Jan 27, 2005, 03:52 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
mr.perfecto Igneous Magma Posts: 632	If the male asserts that he is a female, the marriage should be annuled as New Hampshire state law requires.

Jan 27, 2005, 04:32 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	why do you care so much?

Jan 27, 2005, 04:34 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	mr.perfecto cannot abide by imperfections even if he or anyone else ever have to know about it. Starboy

Feb 4, 2005, 11:56 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	Well if gay marriage is leagalized this is a moot point because marriage is then between two consenting adults, regardless of gender. Why would it matter?

Feb 10, 2005, 03:09 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Very good. Most TV's or CD's are just doing it for kicks of some sort. Wear panites under thier clothes to be rebels... they often will not fully dress up and rarely "live" as women for any period of time. TG's on the otherhand, are ys, people that feel they are of the opposite sex. And even a pre-op that sleeps with other men, may consider themselves as striaght, even if both parties have the same equipment. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?