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Thread: IQ difference between races is Genetic, NOT enviromental

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    IQ difference between races is Genetic, NOT enviromental

    There are differences in IQ scores between the races. This is not up for argument. For hundreds of years, across all cultures, the IQ scores have consistently shown this:
    Asians > Whites > Blacks
    This is called the bell curve, and nobody debates these findings. What people do debate is the cause of this findings, and it seems many people here have bought into the notion that environment/culture creates this pattern.
    The typical approach people from the culture side take is blame racism/oppression (white racism). They will argue that racism stopped places like Africa from becoming prosperous, and even though Africa is as free now, they argue the 'legacy' of racism is still stopping them.

    If you take this view that environment, aka racism, is determining IQ scores, how do you account for these facts:
    1. How do you account for Asians scoring higher then whites since the beginning of IQ testing? If racism negatively effects the other races, why are Asians immune to it? Wouldn't whites have the highest IQ because they are the most racist?
    2. How do you account for Africans consistently having an IQ score of 70? The world has radically changed since IQ testing begun, and racism has significant gone down, yet the Africans IQ score is still 70
    3. How do you account for whites having consistently an IQ score of 100? Belgium, Australia, America, England, France, South Africa have average IQ scores of 100, wouldn't the societies which are more racist have larger IQ scores?
    4. One Europeans explorers first went to Africa, they were shocked by the savagery of the natives. But when the same racist went to China and saw gunpowder and fireworks they noted that "surely this is the smartest race...". How do you account for this difference, shouldn't a racist think both races are dumb?
    5. If oppression can lower Africans IQ score for all of history, how come at the same time, groups such as the Jews, score highest on IQ tests, even through arguably they are the most hated people throughout history? Also why do societies like Germany and Japan recover so quickly after complete destruction, while aboriginal and pigmies have been primitive forever.
    6. How do you account for the correlation between brain sizes and IQ? Why is it aboriginal people have on average the smallest brain sizes, and the lowest IQ. Why do Japanese/Jewish people have the largest brains and the highest IQ. How do you account for whites on average having 100 cubic inches of more brain tissues then blacks, and Asians having 1 cubic inch more brain tissue then whites?
    7. How do you account for mixed races having an IQ of the average of the races of their parents. Why does a white and black couple, have a child which scores is in-between 100 and 70?
    8. How do you account for adopted Asian children having higher IQ then their white parents?

    Genetic explanation has no problem answering these questions, in fact, it predicts it. I simply cannot imagine how a cultural explanation can answer these.

    I know this is a sensitive topic, but I will not waste much time responding to either moral outrage, or accusations of racism. A racist is somebody that does something immoral, there is nothing immoral about accepting something which is so outrageously obvious.

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    I disagree with the idea that IQ tests are a good measure of intelligence.

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    You make a lot of claims of fact but I see no citations or references to support them. For example, "This is called the bell curve, and nobody debates these findings." which is flat out incorrect.

    Within the U.S., Blacks consistently score lower on IQ tests than whites. Similarly, Africans score lower than Europeans. Despite the fact that, as noted, race is not a biologically relevant category, there have been repeated claims that these differences are due to genetic differences between the relevant populations. Given the genetic heterogeneity of all these populations (because modern humans first evolved in Africa, there is in fact more genetic variation in Africa than in the rest of the world), these claims are initially highly implausible and there is no serious evidence in their favor. After a recent survey of the available research, the distinguished University of Michigan psychologist Richard Nisbett concluded, “The evidence most relevant to the question indicates that the genetic contribution to the Black-white IQ gap is nil.”

    On the contrary, the Black-white IQ gap in the U.S. has narrowed significantly over the past thirty years, suggesting that if environments and educational opportunities were truly equalized, it would disappear completely. One study found that Black children adopted by white families that provided more educationally stimulating environments had IQs thirteen points higher than Black children adopted by Black families. Another study of German children fathered by, respectively, Black and white American GIs during the post-1945 occupation, found that there was no significant difference between their IQs.
    International Socialist Review

    The Bell Curve finds a higher correlation with IQ to determine things like wealth, crime, unemployment, and births out of wedlock than with socioeconomic status by holding IQ or socioeconomic as a constant and comparing it to the relationship with these social behaviors (Gould 1996). But according to Gould, Murray and Herrnstein “only discuss the issue that seems to support their viewpoint” (IQ) and ignore “the other factor that counts so profoundly against them” (Socioeconomic status) (1996:374).
    “Race” and “IQ” Tests- Soul Stable -

    Even though there are strong correlations between community life and I.Q. scores, the authors denote importance of community all together. When a researcher identified eight socio-cultural variables and took them into account when analyzing test scores, the differences in I.Q. scores of whites and blacks went down to almost zero. Murray and Herrnstein tend to think that rather than cultural diffusion, this study shows genetic sources of intelligences. Their proof in this claim is that the cultural diffusion mentioned in the study above only effects the black population. If the diffusion were the reason for the differences, it would also affect the scores of the Asian population, and therefore genetic inheritance lies beneath the surface.

    All of Murray's and Herrnstein's arguments are logically set up and written in a fashion that, one who was not well educated on the topic would instantly agree with them. They take each probable scenario and twist it to show how each does not logically account for the known differences. There is one major problem that turns their whole study into an extremely controversial one. These authors believe that heredity, more specifically genetic variance, overwhelmingly accounts for the differences in I.Q. scores between races, yet there is absolutely no biologically evidence saying so. If genetic differences were the reason for the gap in scores between blacks and whites, with today's technology, geneticists would easily have solid, scientific proof.
    Reflection #4 Differences in I.Q. Scores Amongst Races - Lauren Scorzafave EDTHP 427 Blog

    Unlike the differences among European ethnic groups, the IQ difference between European and African Americans persisted throughout the twentieth century, and many Americans continue to believe that a substantial portion of the difference is genetic in origin. For decades, whites scored about 15 points higher than blacks on IQ test. If such a difference were wholly or substantially genetic in origin, the implications for American society would be dire. It would mean that even if the environmental playing field were leveled, a much higher proportion of blacks than whites would have trouble supporting themselves, and a much lower proportion of blacks than whites would be professionals and successful business people. A recent example of this claim can be found in the phenomenally successful book The Bell Curve (1994), by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray.

    Herrnstein and Murray (1994), it is important to note, made no serious effort to propound any alternative explanations for the near total absence of positive direct evidence for the genetic hypothesis. What they do instead is to spend a great deal of time discussing the single study that is consistent with a strong genetic interpretation favoring whites -- the Scarr and Weinberg study -- and then mention only a few of the negative studies, dismissing them with ad hoc self-selection explanations without any mention of the fact that the Scarr and Weinberg study is subject to at least as severe reservations as any of the studies having negative findings that they choose to mention. They also ignore the most comprehensive and sophisticated treatment of the genetic explanation for the B/W gap and alternatives -- that of Flynn (1980). By conventional academic standards, the Herrnstein and Murray review of the evidence on the heritability of the B/W gap is shockingly incomplete and biased.
    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~nisbett/racegen.pdf


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    None of those quotes explain why Asians score higher then whites.

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    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    This is called the bell curve, and nobody debates these findings.
    You have no idea what you're talking about, and it is not called "the bell curve". The "bell curve" is the spread of IQ scores in the general population, and when graphed, creates a statistical bell curve. What you are talking about is NOT a bell curve.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    What people do debate is the cause of this findings, and it seems many people here have bought into the notion that environment/culture creates this pattern.
    Some people (like ganglier) deny the importance of IQ at all. I personally do not think the IQ test is worthless, but I do think that it is slightly biased towards those with schooling.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    The typical approach people from the culture side take is blame racism/oppression (white racism). They will argue that racism stopped places like Africa from becoming prosperous, and even though Africa is as free now, they argue the 'legacy' of racism is still stopping them.
    That is a complete misunderstanding of what most people believe. Racism has almost nothing to do with it, as I will explain.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    If you take this view that environment, aka racism, is determining IQ scores, how do you account for these facts:
    1. How do you account for Asians scoring higher then whites since the beginning of IQ testing? If racism negatively effects the other races, why are Asians immune to it? Wouldn't whites have the highest IQ because they are the most racist?
    Asians do not score higher than whites on IQ tests. Throughout the vast majority of Asia, people score much lower than whites. This fact alone completely and totally destroys your argument. Since people in Thailand have an average IQ of 91, and most Western European nations have an IQ that is higher, your point is destroyed.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    2. How do you account for Africans consistently having an IQ score of 70? The world has radically changed since IQ testing begun, and racism has significant gone down, yet the Africans IQ score is still 70
    Well, since it has been demonstrated in the statement above that average IQ's differ by country even if they are the same race of people...the only measure which is MUCH more correlated to IQ than race is nutrition.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    3. How do you account for whites having consistently an IQ score of 100? Belgium, Australia, America, England, France, South Africa have average IQ scores of 100, wouldn't the societies which are more racist have larger IQ scores?
    Russia and Slovakia: 96. Greece: 92. Finland: 97.

    You see, IQ is much more dependent on economic prosperity (leading to better schooling, nutrition, etc).

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    4. One Europeans explorers first went to Africa, they were shocked by the savagery of the natives. But when the same racist went to China and saw gunpowder and fireworks they noted that "surely this is the smartest race...". How do you account for this difference, shouldn't a racist think both races are dumb?
    The original Europeans who had to deal with the Chinese did think they were inferior. Read the accounts of the British Ambassadors in Beijing, and you'll see this as clear as day.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    5. If oppression can lower Africans IQ score for all of history, how come at the same time, groups such as the Jews, score highest on IQ tests, even through arguably they are the most hated people throughout history? Also why do societies like Germany and Japan recover so quickly after complete destruction, while aboriginal and pigmies have been primitive forever.
    Racism itself has nothing to do with it.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    6. How do you account for the correlation between brain sizes and IQ? Why is it aboriginal people have on average the smallest brain sizes, and the lowest IQ. Why do Japanese/Jewish people have the largest brains and the highest IQ. How do you account for whites on average having 100 cubic inches of more brain tissues then blacks, and Asians having 1 cubic inch more brain tissue then whites?
    Nutrition. Do you honestly believe that aboriginal children are fed half as well as the average white child in any developed nation???

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    7. How do you account for mixed races having an IQ of the average of the races of their parents. Why does a white and black couple, have a child which scores is in-between 100 and 70?
    Wow, you don't know much about genetics do you? Almost all "positive" traits in human beings are expressed as dominant genes. Almost all negative traits are expressed as recessive genes. If intelligence were evolutionarily important then intelligence almost certainly has a dominant genetic expression. Thus, if a person from a "smart race" and a person from a "dumb race" mixed, almost all of the dominant "good" traits from the "smart race" parent would be expressed, and bad genes (unintelligence) would not be expressed. Since inter-racial reproduction has no effect on the IQ of the child, this means that racial intelligence is NOT GENETIC. If racial intelligence WERE inherited, then it would follow the general dominant-recessive rules.

    This is the second time that you've disproven your own argument.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    8. How do you account for adopted Asian children having higher IQ then their white parents?
    They have higher IQ's??? I would love to see this study. I personally think you're completely making it up.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    Genetic explanation has no problem answering these questions, in fact, it predicts it. I simply cannot imagine how a cultural explanation can answer these.
    So far, you've only shown that your argument isn't true.
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    I disagree with the idea that IQ tests are a good measure of intelligence.
    IQ tests are hugely important. They are a very powerful predictor of a many facets of a persons life, including success. They may not be perfect, but they are still the best method of determining somebody's brain efficiency/power.

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    Darklordabc, it is quite funny to me that you are confusing racial causes with what are actually geographical differences.

    If your theory were right, why would Asians of the same exact race score so completely different on IQ tests? Examine the IQ difference in Thailand (91) and Taiwan (104). They are both almost indistinct from a genetic perspective.

    Darklord, the real reason that different races have different IQ's cannot be explained in a single, over-arching theory. However, they can all be explained.

    Why do Africans have Lower IQ's?
    In the past, Europeans and Asians developed huge technical achievements, while the Africans never did. Why is this? The reason is simple. The closer to the equator than a group of people live, the lower their IQ's are. Why is this? There are a myriad of reasons, but the simplest reason is nutrition. In Africa, people had a much harder time acquiring calories. In Africa, people have to hunt for their food, and agriculture was not nearly as efficient as it is in countries farther from the equator.

    In Europe and Asia, people grew crops. In Europe especially, people would grow enough food during the summer to last all winter. During the winter, they had all the time they wanted to basically tinker around.

    If you haven't already noticed, technology developed mainly in areas with agriculture. That was the first prerequisite to get technology, and eventually, a rich nation with a high IQ. Africans not only had worse nutrition because of their environment, they were also plagued with a large multitude of diseases. Europeans and Asians had enough leisure time to develop schools, boats, and other technology. The term "country" itself is a human technology, developed only when a people had sufficient food and technology to enforce their borders.

    When Africans were brought to the New World by European colonists, they were slaves. They didn't have good nutrition, and many slaves died from malnutrition. They also never had schools until relatively recently. Since Africans have only RECENTLY gained equal legal status as whites, they have only recently been given a chance to succeed. They are still hurt by their past. While African Americans now have schools, they were never put on the same level as whites. While they were freed as slaves, no one gave them money whites already had to become equal Americans. Even after the end of slavery, they were heavily discriminated against, and only RECENTLY have been given the opportunity to have the same nice jobs.

    African-American culture is now what holds them back. Studies show that a violent household produces children with lower IQ's. Since African-Americans are poorer on average, they tend to be more violent, and have much worse nutrition. And violent households and bad nutrition produce children with lower IQ's. And since these children have lower IQ's, they have higher levels of violence and THEIR children will be less nourished...etc. It's a vicious cycle that we will only disappear with time.
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    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    They will argue that racism stopped places like Africa from becoming prosperous, and even though Africa is as free now, they argue the 'legacy' of racism is still stopping them.
    Racism was part of it. Ever considered, though, that maybe the environment of Africa wasn't exactly conducive to the creation of healthy large-scale societies, especially one with global influence? The genetically superior white man had plenty of chances to colonize it, and he did, but none of those colonies ever achieved the success of, say, America. Think there could be a reason for that, apart from dumb luck? Maybe the harsh arid climate, the geographical isolation it causes, since, after all, it's pretty hard to get across the Sahara? The lack of timber, thus the lack of boats?

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    1. How do you account for Asians scoring higher then whites since the beginning of IQ testing? If racism negatively effects the other races, why are Asians immune to it? Wouldn't whites have the highest IQ because they are the most racist?
    Do you realize how wildly unscientific you're being? You think the sophistication of our argument is "the more racist you are, the higher your IQ is"? I can't imagine that's ever been said or implied by anyone except you.

    You might want to be more specific than "Asians". If you contend that IQ is genetic, you might want to look at more than just Japan. Do the Thai all have IQs higher than Americans'? Indians? Mongols?

    I did some research for you. The average IQ in Thailand is 91, according to this source. If the Thai are "Asians", and Asians have genetically higher IQs, I wonder why their average IQ isn't above 100? Maybe it's becaue IQ is determined by a wide range of factors, from one's culture, to the level of education one is able to achieve, to one's school curriculum, to one's nutrition, to one's upbringing, etc. etc.

    Crazy, I know.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    2. How do you account for Africans consistently having an IQ score of 70? The world has radically changed since IQ testing begun, and racism has significant gone down, yet the Africans IQ score is still 70
    All the factors I listed above could have something to do with it. If you ask why the average SUB-SAHARAN AFRICAN IQ is 70, I ask why the average African-American IQ is 85 to 87. It's genetic, right?

    This may be news to you, but the quality of education in Africa sucks. You can't really expect an African to learn to solve logical puzzles when they're severely malnourished, their mother is dying of AIDs, and some warlord is slaughtering all their friends.

    Oh, and let me guess how well an American would do at throwing spears...

    As to why African-Americans have lower IQs; Their long and continuing history of oppression certainly plays a part. Also, I'm sure I need not tell you that in the US public schools are funded by local property taxes, ensuring that a poor neighborhood gets a poorly funded school, which is quite bad for the upward mobility of a group.

    Can't find very good sources, but a little research suggests that in the UK the gap between average IQs for whites and blacks (excluding recent immigrants) is a matter of 5 or so points. I'd love to see data on this from Scandinavia.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    3. How do you account for whites having consistently an IQ score of 100? Belgium, Australia, America, England, France, South Africa have average IQ scores of 100, wouldn't the societies which are more racist have larger IQ scores?
    Again... I can't grasp what sense this makes, even given all of your assumptions. I can say that the average IQ is defined as 100, and IQ is restructured around that whenever the average IQ goes up or down within a population. What country they get it from, I don't know. Despite all being fairly well-developed compared to sub-Saharan Africa, there is more variation in average IQs of European countries than you seem to be aware of.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    4. One Europeans explorers first went to Africa, they were shocked by the savagery of the natives. But when the sameracist went to China and saw gunpowder and fireworks they noted that "surely this is the smartest race...". How do you account for this difference, shouldn't a racist think both races are dumb?
    It is historical fact that "they were shocked by the savagery of the natives"? Again, try to be more rigorous with your methodology here. And, no, racists need not be indiscriminately racist to be racist; there is such a thing as targeted racism. I doubt the Europeans wanted to alienate a country with the might and trade potential of China.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    5. If oppression can lower Africans IQ score for all of history, how come at the same time, groups such as the Jews, score highest on IQ tests, even through arguably they are the most hated people throughout history? Also why do societies like Germany and Japan recover so quickly after complete destruction, while aboriginal and pigmies have been primitive forever.
    Now "the Jews" score highest on IQ tests. My source suggests that the average IQ in Israel is 94. Try again?

    Germany and Japan did not suffer "complete destruction", for one, as they both still had the vast majority of their infrastructure and populace, and there was a concerted effort to rebuild both countries. The Australian aborigines have not developed a flourishing society for reasons already outlined, and because Australia is not actually theirs anymore.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    6. How do you account for the correlation between brain sizes and IQ? Why is it aboriginal people have on average the smallest brain sizes, and the lowest IQ. Why do Japanese/Jewish people have the largest brains and the highest IQ. How do you account for whites on average having 100 cubic inches of more brain tissues then blacks, and Asians having 1 cubic inch more brain tissue then whites?
    To begin with, source on this would go a long way toward proving your case. Second, it could be because of nutrition or environment. Who knows.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    7. How do you account for mixed races having an IQ of the average of the races of their parents. Why does a white and black couple, have a child which scores is in-between 100 and 70?
    Source? With controls for environmental factors?

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    8. How do you account for adopted Asian children having higher IQ then their white parents?
    Again.

    Also, may I suggest that those with the means and money to adopt a child may be able to provide the child with a quality education?

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    Genetic explanation has no problem answering these questions, in fact, it predicts it. I simply cannot imagine how a cultural explanation can answer these.
    Ohoh!

    One last thing. If you think history can completely reverse itself in a few decades, you have no respect for actual history, you just want to use convenient historical factoids to bolster your argument.

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    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    IQ tests are hugely important. They are a very powerful predictor of a many facets of a persons life, including success. They may not be perfect, but they are still the best method of determining somebody's brain efficiency/power.
    They are not the "best method of determining someone's brain power".

    In Indonesia for example, indigenous people remember the minute details in the DENSE rain forest for many, many miles. They can walk in a dense rain forest that they've never been in, and can accurately trace the same exact route again for many miles. This is a skill that almost no one in a developed nation possesses.

    IQ tests are effective only for testing a person's brain power from an industrialized, academic perspective. They were never meant to test actual brain-power.
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    Asians do not score higher than whites on IQ tests
    = False
    Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests performed in the United States have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation between different racial groups, with the average score of the African American population being lower— and that of the Asian American population being higher

    Asians in poor areas might score lower then whites in rich areas. But without significant environment difference, Asians score consistently high.
    The original Europeans who had to deal with the Chinese did think they were inferior. Read the accounts of the British Ambassadors in Beijing, and you'll see this as clear as day.
    This in no way responds to the point. Why did they think Chinese are smarter then Africans, is the question.
    Well, since it has been demonstrated in the statement above that average IQ's differ by country even if they are the same race of people...the only measure which is MUCH more correlated to IQ than race is nutrition.
    Why do Asians have higher IQ's then rich white nations then? Because sushi is better for the brain?
    The original Europeans who had to deal with the Chinese did think they were inferior. Read the accounts of the British Ambassadors in Beijing, and you'll see this as clear as day.
    This in no way responds to the point. Why did they think Chinese are smarter then Africans, is the question.
    Nutrition. Do you honestly believe that aboriginal children are fed half as well as the average white child in any developed nation???
    Yes. Aboriginals have been on welfare for along time now, and access to food is not something they have to worry about. If nutrition was all we had to take care of to remove the IQ gap, then we would of realized it by now. I'm starting to think you haven't done any research on this topic at all.
    They have higher IQ's??? I would love to see this study. I personally think you're completely making it up.
    Yes they do. Have you done any research on this subject?

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    You might want to be more specific than "Asians".
    I should of said East Asians. Thats what I meant.

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    Oh dear...now your talking about Asian-Americans. Can you be more specific?

    Most asian nations have lower IQ's than most developed nations.

    Intelligence and the Wealth and Poverty of Nations

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    This in no way responds to the point. Why did they think Chinese are smarter then Africans, is the question.
    Obviously, because the Chinese were more developed. This statement has absolutely NOTHING to do with genetics as a basis for IQ, though.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    Why do Asians have higher IQ's then rich white nations then? Because sushi is better for the brain?
    Wow...just...wow.

    ASIANS DO ***NOT*** HAVE HIGHER IQ'S THAN "WHITE NATIONS, PERIOD. If you would BOTHER to look at my previous source, you would note that most asian countries have very low IQ's. Certainly, a few wealthy Asian countries do have very high IQ's. And it's solely because they were relatively industrialized throughout history, and they are very wealthy nations with great schools.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    This in no way responds to the point. Why did they think Chinese are smarter then Africans, is the question.
    I have never, in the history of my involvement on volconvo, seen such a ridiculously ignorant post. Ever.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    Yes. Aboriginals have been on welfare for along time now, and access to food is not something they have to worry about. So your suggesting, all we have to do is feed aboriginals and then the centuries old IQ gap will vanish, and there average brain size will come to whites?
    While nutrition is a Vhere is more to it than nutrition. I'll just give you one example of many.

    Poorer households have higher levels of domestic violence. Children raised in violent households have lower IQ's.

    http://www.nctsnet.org/nctsn_assets/Articles/122.pdf

    That's just one of MANY CULTURAL reasons that Aborigines (and most other poor minorities) have lower IQ's.

    Quote Quote by: Darklordabc View Post
    Yes they do. Have you done any research on this subject?
    Is that your way of saying "I made the entire statement up and I have no intention of bothering to provide proof that doesn't exist"?

    Again, I assert that your premise that Asians adopted by white parents are smarter...is a false claim. Just admit it, you completely made it up.
    Turning your sacred cows into steak.
    "Reality is for people who can't cope with drugs" - Robin Williams
    Quote Quote by: arX View Post
    Christians must have penis envy. And by penis, I mean Islam.

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