A Crying Baby Is Not Alive?

[tinybear]

Yeah, that's what some judges said about a year ago. It doesn't make sense? Well, read this report of the case and judge for yourselves:

http://illinoisleader.com/columnists...iew.asp?c=8744

I'd like to hear from the liberals on this board. Do you agree with the decision? And if anyone here knows what eventually happened in this case (i.e. whether the appeal went ahead and if so what was the result), please tell me. Thanks.

[kingjust]

I know alot of you are not going to like me after this but, who in the hell are the President or anyone in that fact to judge anyone else with what they do with what they have created,... in my opinion. All of these pro life fags out their picketing baby killers and such, but the homeless population is about as large as the illegal population. She made it, she killed it. No one loss money (since this world revolves around it), the husband maybe shook up, but he should leave that psycho bitch anyways. It's like do as a say and not as I do for those who want to impose their thoughts of morality. Lock her ass up and sew up that hole of hers... but I must digress, I have become the contradict in my own post. But in summary, she should have not have gotten anything in my opinion but maybe a hystarechtamy <-- spelling. The whole matter boils down to someone in the elite past or present imposing his/her moral epiphany to the "SURFS" of the modern world. Sorry for some off topic rants, but as you know everything ties to one another and, IMO, cannot be left out,... gives it more content,... or maybe not.

[tinybear]

Er....are you OK? You sound as if you're drunk or something.

[AlmostAlice]

Quote by: kingjust I know alot of you are not going to like me after this but, who in the hell are the President or anyone in that fact to judge anyone else with what they do with what they have created,... in my opinion. All of these pro life fags out their picketing baby killers and such, but the homeless population is about as large as the illegal population. She made it, she killed it. No one loss money (since this world revolves around it), the husband maybe shook up, but he should leave that psycho bitch anyways. It's like do as a say and not as I do for those who want to impose their thoughts of morality. Lock her ass up and sew up that hole of hers... but I must digress, I have become the contradict in my own post. But in summary, she should have not have gotten anything in my opinion but maybe a hystarechtamy <-- spelling. The whole matter boils down to someone in the elite past or present imposing his/her moral epiphany to the "SURFS" of the modern world. Sorry for some off topic rants, but as you know everything ties to one another and, IMO, cannot be left out,... gives it more content,... or maybe not.

I'll second tinybear's sentiments...

Just for the hell of it, though, you're saying that a person should be allowed to kill their child "just because?" That's kind of a screwy way of looking at it. :rolleyes:

Oh, 'hysterectomy', 'serfs'...for future reference, of course.

[tinybear]

And here I thought Volconvo was teeming with liberals! What? No liberal has any views on the case?

[Pooeypants]

I've been branded a liberal. So what exactly is my reaction meant to be?

[tinybear]

I don't know. What are your views? I think this case is a travesty of justice and brings a bad name to the American legal system. That's what I think. Over to you.

[Pooeypants]

I think this article is too biased to make a good judgment on. For a start, they branded the Judges as "Liberal", in all honesty I don't think you can get anyway with that on the British Press.

[tinybear]

Well, if you ask me, that's being polite. I would have called them asinine. But then I'm not a professional writer, so what do I know?

[Pooeypants]

It's also under "conservative politics", slight giveaway.
I wasn't being polite, just sensible. :p

[SVMc]

Here are the findings from the court on November 18th 2002

The record in this case includes no observation from any witness and no statement from defendant that the baby ever moved or cried after completion of the birth process. All of the pathologists agreed that the physical evidence was consistent with death during birth, just as it was consistent with live birth. The prosecution's pathologist found that the baby had been born alive because a witness thought he heard it cry for one or two seconds. But the single, short cry the witness thought he heard, if it occurred, may have occurred before complete separation from the mother, and therefore it is not sufficient to prove live birth. Because the evidence cannot support a finding beyond a reasonable doubt of live birth, we must reverse the conviction.

Here are the court documents: http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinion...ml/1000273.htm

The reason this case is so publicized is that many states support a "Live Birth Act" which Illonois does not currently have. Please note though that in this particular instance no proof of life has been found. A group currently fighting "Live Birth Abortion" of which the author of this column is the spokes person is spearheading a movment to have this case among others re-tried. It may be re-issued to the Illonois Supreme Court, (if new evidence is found - or procedural error), or it could be taken to a higher level court... someone more familiar with the US judicial system please jump in here and fill in the procedure and requirements for that.

I will refrain from offering an opinion on this topic, because I do not respond well to lables / insults. "Liberal" means many different things to different people (especially of different countires), but in the context of that article it is an insult and probably not worth rising to.

[tinybear]

"The prosecution's pathologist found that the baby had been born alive because a witness thought he heard it cry for one or two seconds. But the single, short cry the witness thought he heard, if it occurred, may have occurred before complete separation from the mother, and therefore it is not sufficient to prove live birth."

Really, does this make any sense to you?

[ericsp23]

No, it doesn't make any sense. Once a baby is outside of it's mother's body, it is a human being and should be allowed to live. If the parent's do not want the child at that point, there is no reason not to consider adoption.
I am pro-choice, but I can see that this takes things too far.

[Ningning]

being liberal and pro-choice doesn't equate to "baby killer." In the case the mother killed a fully formed baby that came out of her body naturally. that is wrong. but why blame "liberals" for this case? Why don't we blame those who are really at fault...greedy lawyers who will pick at any small technicality

[Starboy]

This is a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. I say that there are enough victims in this story. Let the whole thing go. I would offer the women a free vasectomy. Cheaper to do that then lock her up or pay the state to conduct another dog and pony show when she does it again.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Starboy . I would offer the women a free vasectomy.

And I would pay a years salary if she would TAKE a vasectomy!! Make that TWO years.

[SVMc]

Women = hysterectomy

Men = vasectomy

(for future reference)

This is a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. I say that there are enough victims in this story.

Agreed.

Really what is there to say in this case, none of us were there, none of us really knows for 100% sure what happened in that room. Would most people say that killing a living breathing baby is murder... yes. Did the courts say that killing a living, breathing baby is murder... yes. What they couldn't determine for 100% sure was if the baby was in fact living and breathing and was subsequently killed. We can take this into the hypothetical... but unless one of us is an eye witness, I would suggest that a certain degree of presumed innocence is a good thing in a justice system. I'm glad we don't have the death penalty here simply for the amount of people that have been released from our jails in the last 5 years because of new DNA evidence that was able to clear them after 10 and 20 years in jail. I for one think that hypotheically it's a crime and it should be punished, but I'm not equiped with the evidence to make that judgement.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: SVMc Women = hysterectomy Men = vasectomy (for future reference)

My post was a joke.

Really what is there to say in this case, none of us were there, none of us really knows for 100% sure what happened in that room. Would most people say that killing a living breathing baby is murder... yes. Did the courts say that killing a living, breathing baby is murder... yes. What they couldn't determine for 100% sure was if the baby was in fact living and breathing and was subsequently killed.

Wasn't there testimony saying the baby's lungs were full of air? If that's true, and as there isn't a lot of air in the placenta then it must be assumed the baby WAS indeed alive. Not for long, maybe, but long enough to draw a couple of breaths. I don't see this as hypothetical.

[SVMc]

My post was a joke.

I thought the joke would read better with the female term instered.

Wasn't there testimony saying the baby's lungs were full of air? If that's true, and as there isn't a lot of air in the placenta then it must be assumed the baby WAS indeed alive. Not for long, maybe, but long enough to draw a couple of breaths. I don't see this as hypothetical.

We don't know that's the point. I don't know for sure. You don't know for sure. If it did happen yes, it's a tragedy, but I can't judge that as a fact. I can judge it as a tragic hypotheic.

King testified that he heard a baby cry for two seconds as he went to get the plastic bag. He admitted on cross-examination that he told police only that he thought he heard a baby cry. King testified that he went to the bedroom door to give defendant the bag. Defendant then crossed the hallway to the bathroom, carrying nothing. After five minutes defendant returned to the bedroom. She came out carrying the plastic bag by the top. King swore that he heard nothing from the bedroom during the five minutes the newborn was alone in there.

From the court documents http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinion...ml/1000273.htm

Could have the baby been alive, and Kings first testimony been correct.Yes. Was it murder if that is the case. Yes. Do I personally know all the facts in this case. No. And because I don't, I can only treat this as hypothetical.

[Scribbler1]

I agree that based on someone POSSIBLY hearing a baby cry it would be mere speculation on our part. However, as I said if there was air in the lungs the baby took at least one breath which would strongly indicate live birth (of course, those extenuating factors listed may have an effect) and if the baby drowned this seems to indicate water in the lungs and not amniotic fluid.
Maybe it is a hypothetical assesment but I lean towards the deliberate killing scenario. Good thing I'm not a judge. Of course I suppose I'd be a little more open minded if I was.