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Morgan_Freeman · Jan 21, 2005, 08:27 pm

Who here thinks animals have rights, and if so, why?

The Dunedan · Jan 21, 2005, 08:52 pm

The vast majority of animals have no rights as they are not Sentient or Sapient. Those animals which -do- appear to be Sen/Sap could be said to have certain rights which might approach those of humans; elephants, whales, dolphins, and the Great Apes for instance.

However, the remaining animal species do not have rights as we humans understand them. Humans do, however, being Sentient and Sapient, have a moral obligation to treat animals humanely and not to abuse them. This is not to say that they should not be killed; having no awareness of Death or Mortality it does not effect them. However, they can and do feel pain, and should therefore be killed in as painless and humane a manner as circumstances allow, and not made to suffer. People who consciously, intentionally, or negligently abuse animals are the lowest of the low, in my opinion.

**Chris** · Jan 21, 2005, 08:56 pm

Quote:

Quote by: The Dunedan

...However, they can and do feel pain, and should therefore be killed in as painless and humane a manner as circumstances allow, and not made to suffer. People who consciously, intentionally, or negligently abuse animals are the lowest of the low, in my opinion.

I agree 100%

Starboy · Jan 21, 2005, 09:31 pm

We are animals and we have rights. Of course we gave them to ourselves. So if the other animals on the planet want rights then they should get together and do the same. Although I wonder how many people would be keen on certain animals having the right to bear arms, or even the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. I suppose if we could get them to pay taxes then who knows?

Starboy

The Dunedan · Jan 21, 2005, 09:45 pm

If they were Sentiant/Sapient and could coherently and consistantly communicate with humans, I'd have no problem with it. In L. Neil Smith's North American Confederacy series, Cetaeans and Great Apes are gun-carrying, money-changing, obscenity-shouting members of society...the results are sometimes comical ( esp. when the protagonist of The Probablility Broach first arrives and mistakes them for mutants ) but it seems quite plausible.

Morgan_Freeman · Jan 21, 2005, 11:05 pm

Quote:

Quote by: The Dunedan

However, the remaining animal species do not have rights as we humans understand them. Humans do, however, being Sentient and Sapient, have a moral obligation to treat animals humanely and not to abuse them. This is not to say that they should not be killed; having no awareness of Death or Mortality it does not effect them. However, they can and do feel pain, and should therefore be killed in as painless and humane a manner as circumstances allow, and not made to suffer. People who consciously, intentionally, or negligently abuse animals are the lowest of the low, in my opinion.

Does that mean you oppose the meat industry and never buy meat at the store?

The Dunedan · Jan 21, 2005, 11:20 pm

Morgan:
Mostly, yes. I get most of my meat either from hunting, or from the farm that my Mother and Stepfather own; once you've had real free-range organic beef, the store-bought stuff just seems...bland. That, coupled with the fact that the battery-farm beef sold in most grocery stores is horribly unhealthy, caused me to make the switch about five years ago. When I get stuck buying store-bought beef, I go to my local Organic Grocer or the family butcher-shop a few streets over. Costs a little extra, but the improved quality of the meat is more than worth it, IMO.

tinybear · Jan 21, 2005, 11:40 pm

Generally animals have no rights. The exception is endangered species (like *ahem* bears for example). They have some protection, but that's because they had been slaughtered to near extinction. Sometimes I have nightmares of animals taking over the earth and exacting a terrible revenge on us.

http://media1.santabanta.com/full/ho...apes/pla5s.jpg

Scribbler1 · Jan 21, 2005, 11:47 pm

Quote:

Quote by: The Dunedan

People who consciously, intentionally, or negligently abuse animals are the lowest of the low, in my opinion.

Amen to that. Every time I see some disturbing story about a severely abused dog, cat or other "pet" I have to wonder just WHO the higher animal is. I also regret the lack of opportunity to meet these "people" and see if they have the stomach to put a cigarette out on ME as they did with a dog I saw on TV recently.

Morgan_Freeman · Jan 22, 2005, 12:13 am

Are the rights of some animals comparable with infants or severely retarded humans?

tinybear · Jan 22, 2005, 03:44 am

No, human rights are at a much higher level, even in commie countries like China where human life is not held in high regard.

tinybear · Jan 22, 2005, 04:02 am

On the other hand, animals can arm and defend themselves whilst in many countries, people can't do the same.

http://www.funnyjunk.com/p/notcute-jpg.html

castille · Jan 22, 2005, 04:05 am

I don't really believe in animal rights, but at the same time I wouldn't oppose an animal killing a human who is intruding on their turf. That's about the extent of "animal rights" I support.

tinybear · Jan 22, 2005, 04:10 am

What would you do if your neighbour came over to your house and kicked your dog?

http://www.funnyjunk.com/pages/mydog.htm

SVMc · Jan 22, 2005, 09:31 am

MF - it looks like you're really just itching for someone to say that they have human rights.... if you want that debate may I suggest a board.... Belief Net's animal rights board used to have a poster named "hugopotistch" you may be able to have a good back and forth with him, he does believe in equal rights for animals.

For my part I don't believe animals have the same rights as humans, however I do believe that humans have the ability to endow animals with those rights which we can protect. So I believe that animals as part of the biosphere have a right to habitat, and have a right not to be harmed or have pain inflicted on them any more than a human being does. I also acknowledge that these are the ways that I see animal rights, and these rights (short of malicious abuse of a pet, or the proper killing procedures for livestock) are not enshrined in any countries laws, therefore I can only decide as an individual to be kind to any pets I have and to not eat meat or meat bi-products myself. And, let me make this very clear, I choose this as a personal option, I do not and have never asked anyone around me to live the way I do, I am NOT a card carrying member of PETA. However I do believe that I do the best I can to support a less cruel existence for animals.

Comrade · Jan 22, 2005, 08:01 pm

Animals have no rights.
There are better things to worry about.

Scribbler1 · Jan 22, 2005, 08:21 pm

Animals start out with no more "rights" than people do. Rights are in reality better called "protections" and they are given by us the same way we give them to ourselves. So, since there are laws against things like animal cruelty, yes, they DO have rights.
I agree that we have a LOT of things more important to wory about, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be concerned about this issue, bacause actually, what other people consider important is none of your business.

Comrade · Jan 22, 2005, 08:41 pm

I look at it the opposite way, scribbler.
Rights are things we have and that can be taken away by those with power over us. That's why, if say some uberlib repealed the 2nd Amendment, it would mean nothing. I would still have the right to bear arms, it would simply be suppressed.

Scribbler1 · Jan 22, 2005, 09:03 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Comrade

I look at it the opposite way, scribbler.
Rights are things we have and that can be taken away by those with power over us. That's why, if say some uberlib repealed the 2nd Amendment, it would mean nothing. I would still have the right to bear arms, it would simply be suppressed.

That's why I prefer to see them as "protections" in that you HAVE the right and the protections are there to make it stick. I disagree in principle about the repeal of the 2nd, perhaps as a matter of semantics. The 2nd amendment takes your right and, as I said, "makes it stick" but if that weren't there your right could be legally taken from you, regardless of whether you actually HAVE a gun or not.
The same for animals. While we have the "right" to drag our own pets down the street behind our cars for laughs, society has deemd that kind of act as repugnant enough to take away our right to do it. The implication is that animals have a right to be safe from abuse at the hand of man.
But I agree that it IS a minor issue, or that it should be. What bothers me is having the need for such laws in the first place. I'm not some PETA psycho but I do believe if anyone viciously abuses animals for fun they forfeit their right to exist in civilized society. In fact, under some circumstances I believe they should give up their right to live, period.

Wait a minute. Does that last point mean I'm not still a leftie?

Comrade · Jan 22, 2005, 09:21 pm

Yes, its just a semantic difference.
But pets don't have a "right" to not be dragged behind cars for kicks. We've just decided that we won't let people do it.

As for you being a "leftie," who knows. Is the Daily Kos or Wonkette part of your daily reading? :)

Jan 21, 2005, 08:27 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	Animal Rights Who here thinks animals have rights, and if so, why? "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Jan 22, 2005, 12:13 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	Are the rights of some animals comparable with infants or severely retarded humans? "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Jan 22, 2005, 04:02 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,085	On the other hand, animals can arm and defend themselves whilst in many countries, people can't do the same. http://www.funnyjunk.com/p/notcute-jpg.html Last edited by tinybear; Jan 22, 2005 at 04:06 am.

Jan 22, 2005, 04:05 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	I don't really believe in animal rights, but at the same time I wouldn't oppose an animal killing a human who is intruding on their turf. That's about the extent of "animal rights" I support. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jan 22, 2005, 08:01 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Comrade Hot Lava Location: Texas Posts: 1,229	Animals have no rights. There are better things to worry about. Oh, it's really too bad, isn't it? -- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/watw10701210224 Hahaha, that's funny. Liberals are so silly!

Jan 21, 2005, 08:52 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 925	The vast majority of animals have no rights as they are not Sentient or Sapient. Those animals which -do- appear to be Sen/Sap could be said to have certain rights which might approach those of humans; elephants, whales, dolphins, and the Great Apes for instance. However, the remaining animal species do not have rights as we humans understand them. Humans do, however, being Sentient and Sapient, have a moral obligation to treat animals humanely and not to abuse them. This is not to say that they should not be killed; having no awareness of Death or Mortality it does not effect them. However, they can and do feel pain, and should therefore be killed in as painless and humane a manner as circumstances allow, and not made to suffer. People who consciously, intentionally, or negligently abuse animals are the lowest of the low, in my opinion.

Jan 21, 2005, 09:31 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	We are animals and we have rights. Of course we gave them to ourselves. So if the other animals on the planet want rights then they should get together and do the same. Although I wonder how many people would be keen on certain animals having the right to bear arms, or even the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. I suppose if we could get them to pay taxes then who knows? Starboy

Jan 21, 2005, 09:45 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 925	If they were Sentiant/Sapient and could coherently and consistantly communicate with humans, I'd have no problem with it. In L. Neil Smith's North American Confederacy series, Cetaeans and Great Apes are gun-carrying, money-changing, obscenity-shouting members of society...the results are sometimes comical ( esp. when the protagonist of The Probablility Broach first arrives and mistakes them for mutants ) but it seems quite plausible.

Jan 21, 2005, 11:20 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 925	Morgan: Mostly, yes. I get most of my meat either from hunting, or from the farm that my Mother and Stepfather own; once you've had real free-range organic beef, the store-bought stuff just seems...bland. That, coupled with the fact that the battery-farm beef sold in most grocery stores is horribly unhealthy, caused me to make the switch about five years ago. When I get stuck buying store-bought beef, I go to my local Organic Grocer or the family butcher-shop a few streets over. Costs a little extra, but the improved quality of the meat is more than worth it, IMO.

Jan 21, 2005, 11:40 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,085	Generally animals have no rights. The exception is endangered species (like ahem bears for example). They have some protection, but that's because they had been slaughtered to near extinction. Sometimes I have nightmares of animals taking over the earth and exacting a terrible revenge on us. http://media1.santabanta.com/full/ho...apes/pla5s.jpg

Jan 22, 2005, 03:44 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,085	No, human rights are at a much higher level, even in commie countries like China where human life is not held in high regard.

Jan 22, 2005, 04:10 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,085	What would you do if your neighbour came over to your house and kicked your dog? http://www.funnyjunk.com/pages/mydog.htm

Jan 22, 2005, 09:31 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	MF - it looks like you're really just itching for someone to say that they have human rights.... if you want that debate may I suggest a board.... Belief Net's animal rights board used to have a poster named "hugopotistch" you may be able to have a good back and forth with him, he does believe in equal rights for animals. For my part I don't believe animals have the same rights as humans, however I do believe that humans have the ability to endow animals with those rights which we can protect. So I believe that animals as part of the biosphere have a right to habitat, and have a right not to be harmed or have pain inflicted on them any more than a human being does. I also acknowledge that these are the ways that I see animal rights, and these rights (short of malicious abuse of a pet, or the proper killing procedures for livestock) are not enshrined in any countries laws, therefore I can only decide as an individual to be kind to any pets I have and to not eat meat or meat bi-products myself. And, let me make this very clear, I choose this as a personal option, I do not and have never asked anyone around me to live the way I do, I am NOT a card carrying member of PETA. However I do believe that I do the best I can to support a less cruel existence for animals.

Jan 22, 2005, 08:21 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	Animals start out with no more "rights" than people do. Rights are in reality better called "protections" and they are given by us the same way we give them to ourselves. So, since there are laws against things like animal cruelty, yes, they DO have rights. I agree that we have a LOT of things more important to wory about, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be concerned about this issue, bacause actually, what other people consider important is none of your business.

Jan 22, 2005, 08:41 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Comrade Hot Lava Location: Texas Posts: 1,229	I look at it the opposite way, scribbler. Rights are things we have and that can be taken away by those with power over us. That's why, if say some uberlib repealed the 2nd Amendment, it would mean nothing. I would still have the right to bear arms, it would simply be suppressed. Oh, it's really too bad, isn't it? -- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/watw10701210224 Hahaha, that's funny. Liberals are so silly!

Jan 22, 2005, 09:21 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Comrade Hot Lava Location: Texas Posts: 1,229	Yes, its just a semantic difference. But pets don't have a "right" to not be dragged behind cars for kicks. We've just decided that we won't let people do it. As for you being a "leftie," who knows. Is the Daily Kos or Wonkette part of your daily reading? :) Oh, it's really too bad, isn't it? -- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/watw10701210224 Hahaha, that's funny. Liberals are so silly!