FN 5.7mm Pistol: Get 'em While You Can!

[The Dunedan]

OK. A few days ago, a licensed carrier was arrested for drunken-driving, while legally carrying his 5.7mm pistol on the seat beside him. Well, the Brady Bunch, HCI, the Thousand Or So Misguided Mommies, and all the other Usual Suspects of the Victim-Disarmament movement have been going absolutely bonkers ever since.

For those of you who aren't familliar with this weapon, the FN-Herstal Five-Seven series pistols fire a high-velocity 5.7x28mm cartridge which comes in two forms: SS190 Armour-Piercing, and SS100 Training/Hollowpoint. The SS190 is not sold to civillians, only the HP stuff, and it's bloody expensive. The pistol itself costs between $900 and $1200 new, depending on version.

Now, the reason The Usual Suspects are going nuts is because even the civillian-legal SS100 is capable of piercing Level-III body armor. It's small, accurate, and FAST. They're calling for an Executive Order to ban the gun and its' ammunition:
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41691
They're using their usual lies and misdirection by claiming that the AP ammo is easily available ( it's not ), that the weapon was previously unknown to LEOs ( it wasn't ) and that it's somehow unique in its' ability to penetrate armor ( it's not; any centerfire rifle round can do the same thing ).

Bear in mind that this weapon has been available for several years, although only serious Gun Culture people were even aware of the existance of this fairly rare and exotic gun/round combination. Now, as usual, The Usual Suspects have created a problem by plastering this thing all over the news as the "Armor Piercing Anti-cop Death Ray Of Doom!!!" Prior to this, criminals weren't using this thing or much even knowing of its' existance. Now, everyone knows about this thing and its' capabilities.

So, here's my suggestion to all you gunowning l/Libertarian types out there:
BUY ONE NOW
Not only is it a good investment ( look for the prices to increase if these things get banned ) but it'll absolutely give those idiots at HCI, The Brady Bunch, and the Thousand Or So Misguided Mommies the FITS. The only other gun out there which scares these twits worse than the Five-Seven ( at the moment, anyway ) is the .50BMG, and those are a LOT more expensive. Buy a Five Seven, scare the gun-grabbers witless, and enjoy a truly fine piece of engineering. Having shot one myself, they're a real pleasure: recoil is nonexistant, they're bloody accurate, and as a close-range varmint-buster they can't be beat.

[dotcoma]

This is why the libertarians are viewed as extremist and will never fall into the mainstream. Telling people to go buy a gun because they may take one away is absolute nonsense. I suppose you are the type of person who insists all types of weapons should be at our disposal. Sorry, but the British aren't coming, and our government is as stable as they come. I approve of keeping arms in a community barrack or something like that for militia purposes, but other than that I really don't approve of vigilante bs.

[Milton Bradley]

Not only do I already have one, I can make any number of them appear any time I want. ( The editor in my Jagged Alliance game allows my to place any weapon in the game into my inventory, and both kind of ammunition as well.) (Muhahahahahahaha)

[The Dunedan]

DC:
Who said anything about vigilatism? I'm talking about annoying the piss out of Sarah Brady and Diane Feinstein, two highly laudable goals.
Yes, I do insist that all types of weapons be at our disposal...Mssrs. Jefferson, Hamilton, and Washington agree with me.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: The Dunedan DC: Yes, I do insist that all types of weapons be at our disposal...Mssrs. Jefferson, Hamilton, and Washington agree with me.

So does the constitution. Which is really all that matters to a citizen of the United States.

[The Dunedan]

Indeed.

I suppose you are the type of person who insists all types of weapons should be at our disposal.

You say that like it's a bad thing! *grin*

[dotcoma]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Quote by: The Dunedan DC: Yes, I do insist that all types of weapons be at our disposal...Mssrs. Jefferson, Hamilton, and Washington agree with me. So does the constitution. Which is really all that matters to a citizen of the United States.

Keep and bear arms. It does not say any arms. Sort of like how the freedom of speech does not imply you can scream fire in a crowded theatre.

[The Dunedan]

At the time, "arms" was generally understood to mean any man-portable weapon. Anything bigger was "ordinance."

Richard Henry Lee, tha man who drafter the BoR, put it thus:
" A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves. ... The Constitution ought to secure a genuine [militia] and guard against a select militia, by providing that the militias shall always be kept well organized, armed, and disciplined, and include ... all men capable of bearing arms, and that all regulations tending to render this militia useless and defenseless, by establishing select corps of militia, or distinct bodies of military men not having permanent interests and attachments in the community [are] to be avoided. ... To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

[Aequo]

I've always wanted one of those pistols. If I had the money, I'd get one. Gun collecting/shooting is valid a hobby as any other, not to mention the benefits when it comes to self-defence.

[dotcoma]

Quote by: The Dunedan At the time, "arms" was generally understood to mean any man-portable weapon. Anything bigger was "ordinance." Richard Henry Lee, tha man who drafter the BoR, put it thus: " A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves. ... The Constitution ought to secure a genuine [militia] and guard against a select militia, by providing that the militias shall always be kept well organized, armed, and disciplined, and include ... all men capable of bearing arms, and that all regulations tending to render this militia useless and defenseless, by establishing select corps of militia, or distinct bodies of military men not having permanent interests and attachments in the community [are] to be avoided. ... To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." Doesn't get much clearer than that.

First of all you are crazy if you think that does not sound out of context now. Secondly, it does not imply ANY WEAPON anywhere in that paragraph.

[The Dunedan]

Of course not "any weapon," it repeatedly specifies "Arms," which are man-portable weapons.

As for context, that sounds an awfu lot like the tired old "The Founders can't have imagined AK-47s and rocket-launchers!" nonsense that one still hears. If we're going to limit the BoR based upon what the Founders knew, then the First Amendment only applies to quills, hand-operated printing presses, and the unamplified voice: no protection for the Internet, TV, radio, electronically or mechanically-printed books or newspapers, etc etc.

[dotcoma]

Our founding fathers wanted us to have the capability to defend ourselves if need be. A rocket launcher and automatic weapons that do not defend, but rather are used only to harm large amount of people and property do not serve the same purpose. The majority of Americans would not agree with your interpretation.

[The Dunedan]

I don't care about majorities: I worry about them. Majorities are easily misled, fooled, bamboozled, hoodooed, and tricked into doing whatever a charismatic leader tells them to. We have a Republic specifically in order to protect us from majorities.

You're correct about the FF's wanting us to be able to defend ourselves; what you miss is whom we were to defend ourselves against. Their concern was not muggers, it was tyrants and genocidists. Have you ever noticed that NOBODY has mucked around with the Swiss lately? Like, in the last 800 years? It's because the Swiss are ( and always have been ) Neutral and ARMED. They keep machineguns in their homes and take their machineguns with them to the Polling Place on election day. They carry them in the streets, in the open, when they go to one of their monthy Schutzenfestein, practice whenever they like, and carry wherever they like. Not only do they have the lowest violent-crime rate in the entire world, they have a Government which is responsive, accountable to the people, and small: IOW, a Government that KNOWS ITS' PLACE and stays there.

[Milton Bradley]

I could not have said it any better myself Dunedan.


The framers of our constitution were well aware that a government that does not have the consent of the governed were doomed to failure, if not worse. Remember, they shot people for doing less to themselves than my governnment is doing to me right now. Chief amond those transgressions were taxation without representation, just like we are dealing with right now.


Geaorge Washington, a national hero, shot people for less.

[dotcoma]

You're correct about the FF's wanting us to be able to defend ourselves; what you miss is whom we were to defend ourselves against. Their concern was not muggers, it was tyrants and genocidists. Have you ever noticed that NOBODY has mucked around with the Swiss lately? Like, in the last 800 years? It's because the Swiss are ( and always have been ) Neutral and ARMED. They keep machineguns in their homes and take their machineguns with them to the Polling Place on election day. They carry them in the streets, in the open, when they go to one of their monthy Schutzenfestein, practice whenever they like, and carry wherever they like. Not only do they have the lowest violent-crime rate in the entire world, they have a Government which is responsive, accountable to the people, and small: IOW, a Government that KNOWS ITS' PLACE and stays there.

The swiss also have mandatory civil service and training for such weapons. It is what makes or breaks this stability. With no discipline such weapons should not be at the hands of the people. Also, we are a large superpower with huge economic stratifications. I highly doubt the same relative peace could happen in the US if we just let everyone have weapons.

Also, since when is the swiss government small? They tax a ton, and take care of their own.

[Milton Bradley]

The only reason America was ever on top was chiefly because civilians are allowed to have, and refine weaopns. Virtually all of the great inventions that allowed America to win any war came from the inventions of CIVILIANS.


Without the input from the common man there would be no Browning automatic rifle, no Thompson sub-machine gun, no Barret sniper rifle. Just a few of the weapons that helped us win wars.


Don't even get me started on companies like Chance Vought, or Grumann, or the myriad of other civilian companies whos inventions allow to live in the fantasy you have created for yourself.

[The Black Flag]

*applaudes dundean and others* Beautiful!