rights of children

[flyingfight]

I know its a little bit of an old topic, but I'm 14, and I've been looking at court cases and stuff about student rights. It interests me because I've seen it in my school, how teachers and basically the adults community as a whole views us as immature and unable to make our own decisions.

This is turn causes them to do things to us that they would never be allowed to do to people their own age. In tge cases the supreme court says that not all of the rights in the amendments to the constition apply to us because they would interfere with our education. I dont know much about other countries and the world as a whole and how they treat children in regards to rights, so i'm open for ideas there.

I wouldnt mind so much if people actually had good arguements against us having most or all of the rights, but they dont. All they say is how we're not prepared to face the challenges of the world and our developement isnt advanced enough to have these rights.

I havent talked about any reasons why we should have more rights because i want to hear other peoples opinions first. So?

[FriedrichSeneca]

Locke's Second Treatise on Government, ch. VI.

Said otherwise: hold your breath till you reach that arbitrary, unjust legal fiction called the "age of majority". Worked for me.

[The Black Ghost]

Depends what you consider a right.

Is a mandatory education (and everything that comes with) legal and constitutional? No, but it has been argued by many that it is your right to go to school--which ironically is interpreted as "You will go to school or else face misdemeanor charges". IMO thats kind of the opposite of protection of rights.


To your question about adults views of children. There are several sides to that arguement. I think the younger people are, the less likely (statistically) they are to make smart decisions on their own. However, I think that many adults forget their time during compulsory education and loose their sympathies for children after they get older. (That's part of a larger psychological complex where people only sympathize with others who are like them: age, race, sex, country of origin, etc...)

They idea of age-based rights is somewhat hypocritical in my mind, but its all relative. Can you allow minors to vote and expect the results to be original and not simply a direct reflection of parents or teachers? (does that magically change once you become an adult at 18?) yeah right!

I agree with you, but its a very broad topic and an unwinnable debate. The legality of it goes back to old European customs patriarchy and the subservience of children to elders. Is it fair? No. Can it be changed? Probably not.


You can tell, this is one of the things that really got to me when I was younger. I was quite the revolutionary on this subject.

[Marwood]

It's an interesting question, flyingfight. Childhood is an arbitrary age bracket, and obviously some children are more mature than others. However, I presume that you wouldn't grant the rights and responsibilities of adulthood to, say, a six year old. We, as adults, generally believe a fourteen year old is still unprepared for these, and we can make that judgement because we've been fourteen ourselves. I can appreciate that this is difficult to accept, since you don't have the luxury of seeing things from the other perspective.

Out of interest, which rights in particular do you think you should have?

[Primum non nocere]

The oppression of children is one of most overlooked prejudices of our time.

I'm not exactly sure what your asking for FF, but it is my firm belief that rights should be given in accordance with one's capacities rather than be based on the arbitrary classification of age.

This article raises some exemplary points:

http://www.raisingmyboychick.com/200...d-of-children/

"What does it mean, exactly, to honor their personhood? It means simply that we start with the radical idea that children are people: that they have the right to bodily integrity; that their needs are no less important than ours, that their desires are no less worthy than ours; that their feelings matter, that their ideas matter, that they matter; that they should be respected for who they are, not just valued (or devalued) for what they do for us."

I don't agree with TBG's pessimism. This is something we need to continue to fight for. It is something that deserves discussion!

[ElusiveTruth]

I would presume that in some cases it's the fact that till a certain age you are still in a period of development. That only refers to some rights though. On the whole I reckon the whole full rights at 18/21 is BS.

Anyway... like so many things in today's world... there is a standard procedure with no regards to individuality. Some people mature earlier others mature later. Even you would have to admit that at 8 yrs old the average child still relies upon and looks to their parents and other adults as too much of an authority to be independently make their own decisions.

As to when any individual is really ready to take responsibility for all their rights... it's an interesting question. It definitely wouldn't be a specific age like 18. Some are very mature at 12 and others aren't mature enough at 27. It also has a lot to do with how you are brought up and your environment.

It is a whole other debate when you start discussing the ideal manner to bring up a child. Take responsibility for them and let them play and dream... or start pushing responsibility on them from an earlier age... very debatable.

But hey... I need to know what rights you refer to before I have a specific answer.

I know that until I was 15 I didn't care about rights or whatever. I was perfectly content to leave the worrying and responsibility to my parents. At 16 though... some restrictions started getting irritating. And between 16 and 18 I don't think I matured that much... and even now at 20 I'm not too different.

[crimethinker]

Others have covered the topic pretty well. As a minor (for one more month), I've always been uncomfortable with the position I and other minors occupy: essentially that of a pet dog. You can't flagrantly abuse them, but almost everything else is on the table, even dressing them in the most ridiculous sweater.

The comparison and its seeming accuracy worry me, but I don't see what can practically be done about it, beyond making small, reasonable adjustments to the law.

Can you allow minors to vote and expect the results to be original and not simply a direct reflection of parents or teachers?

Actually, I would say yes. "Young people" tend to be far more liberal/libertarian than their parents and grandparents, and I doubt this starts at age 18. As a liberal, I'd expect better results from 14-year-olds than what we normally get.

[Muckraker]

how teachers and basically the adults community as a whole views us as immature and unable to make our own decisions.

For the most part, I'm against age discrimination. But I'll play the other side for fun. Hopefully I don't play it too well

I wouldnt mind so much if people actually had good arguements against us having most or all of the rights, but they dont. All they say is how we're not prepared to face the challenges of the world and our developement isnt advanced enough to have these rights.

I havent talked about any reasons why we should have more rights because i want to hear other peoples opinions first. So?

1. Laws limiting freedoms for people under 18/21 are in place to protect young people. The typical argument here is that "kids are stupid and it's for their own good." I'll propose that the bigger issue is protection from adults. By granting full rights to minors you are also granting full rights to adults/parents and how they interact with minors. If the age of freedom was moved to fourteen, or eliminated altogether, what is stopping a parent from kicking a fourteen-year-old out of the house or absolving themselves of financial responsibility? What is stopping a forty-year-old man from putting the full-court press on a fourteen-year-old girl?

2. Laws limiting freedom for the young also absolve the young of legal responsibility. The typical argument here is "kids are naive and inexperienced and make dumb mistakes." I'll propose that these laws benefit young people in that they are not held legally responsible for mistakes that would socially cripple adults. The young can enjoy the benefits of illegal activities without permanent consequence. Do all the drugs you want, steal all you want, rack up massive CC debt by providing a false age--at eighteen you get a clean slate. A fourteen-year-old can sexually molest a six-year-old and then, at age eighteen, become an regular law-abiding citizen. An eighteen-year-old can have sex with his sixteen-year-old girlfriend and be publicly branded a sexual predator for life.

3. Young people are not mature. The typical argument here is that "young people are not mature." I'm not putting much of a spin on it. No matter how much you want to believe otherwise, an apple is not ripe until an apple is ripe. If you have just grown three inches over the summer then you were not and are not fully grown. Is it just age discrimination that keeps the NBA and NFL from recruiting twelve-year-olds as starters? No. They just aren't big enough--literally.

It's not simply inexperience and irresponsibility--the brain physically changes just as the outward appearance does during maturation. You don't walk around with a boner all day because you are sexually inexperienced. You don't want to kill yourself when Susie doesn't send you a note...er text you...at lunch because you are inexperienced in social relationships. Your chaotic, unripe brain-juice is changing--and that affects you. And when a good chunk of who you are is the chemical makeup of your brain-juice you just aren't you yet. Regardless of age, screwing around with your brain chemistry will change you--I can personally attest to that--so how can we say that you are fully mature at a time when a human's brain chemistry is turbulent?


Now that I think about it, many of these things apply to old people as well. Perhaps society isn't ready to withdraw granted freedoms based purely on age though.

I know it probably sounds stupid but there are reasons most adults tell the young to "enjoy life now." Three of them are noted above.

[barts]

One of the more egregious examples of discrimination against the young is the minimum wage. In some jurisdictions, employers can pay people under the age of 18 less. This is wrong, in my view.

The minimum wage in the US is appallingly low. For employers to pay even less to a 14 year old than an 18 year old is nothing less than legalized theft.

[Derach]

FlyingFight- what constitutional right have you been denied?

In my experience, when kids complain that rights are being violated in a school setting, they often overlook the fact that all the kids have a right to an education. Your freedom of speech, for instance, ends when you infringe on other kids' right to learn.

[The Black Ghost]

I don't agree with TBG's pessimism. This is something we need to continue to fight for. It is something that deserves discussion!

Sure it does deserve discussion. But if you expect there to be any great change in this area, we would need an entire socio-economic change first. There are politics and economics behind all of this--and these things are very firmly entrenched. If a politician ever suggested reform like this, he would be crucified politically--becaue the rhetoric of education and the words "for the children" is just too strongly set in most people's heads.

Among the political reasons it wont change anytime soon:

-Keep down unemployment: Mandatory education keeps children out of the workforce so the jobs of adults are not taken. Imagine unemployment caused by children? Can't blame it all on illegal aliens then!

-SOCIALIZATION!: Ever heard the phrase "getting ready to be a productive member of society"? Translation: Get in line, work your ass off, pay your bills. Really its all about accepting the way of life we have and keeping troublemakers from breaking our system.

-International Competition: Competition is the biggest reason why education is mandatory and higher standards are being increasingly forced on us. This really came out of the Cold War and the emergence of supra-globalized capitalism. If you're in the US, its about keeping us "on top". Seriously, just mention that maybe we shouldnt be the world's leading superpower and people's minds are blown like you suggested that we worship satan.

Actually, I would say yes. "Young people" tend to be far more liberal/libertarian than their parents and grandparents, and I doubt this starts at age 18. As a liberal, I'd expect better results from 14-year-olds than what we normally get.

I was just raising the stock question that others would, I agree with you.

[grandpa]

Sure it does deserve discussion.
But if you expect there to be any great change
in this area, we would need an entire socio-economic
change first.

Age discrimination/child rights was one of my fave discussions in high school, but I often forget what it's like now that I'm older. People should try to remember. It's a very important issue. And no, I'm not being a shitwit in this instance.

Grandpa h.