Racism and the system

[Suburbanite]

Quote by: The Dunedan Ok, this is funny. Yes, American has a racial problem. So does every other country in the world. However, the US has not in my lifetime: 1: Torched a city, impaled it's babies on lances, and sworn to banish all Blacks to "Hell or Connaught!" ( Oliver Cromwell and his New Model Army after the siege of Drodegha ) 2: Levelled a foreign capital, poisoned its' wells, sown the earth with salt, imprisoned its' entire population ( except for the men over 17, who were all executed ) and filled in its' harbours with rubble. ( Rome, after the conquest of Carthage ) 3: Sacked a city, killed over 250,000 people, raped women with bayonets, cut people's heads off for practice, coated children with gasoline and set them on fire for use as street-lamps, disembowled pregnant women for aforementioned street-lamp-fuel, and buried people up to their neck in a half-and-half mixture of water/lye. ( Japan, the rape of Nanking ) 4: Rounded up 300,000 people in 4 days, herded them onto cattle-cars, and shipped them 3500 miles away. The 300,000 were the lucky ones: 185,000 more were dead from starvation by this point. ( Stalin, against the Terek Cossacks, during the Wheat Wars. ) 5: Systematically exterminated 6,000,000 Jews, 2.5M Catholics, 890,000 homosexuals, 700,000 Gypsies, 1.5M Slavs, and roughly 450,000 political dissidents. ( Holocaust. ) 6: Burned and tortured 105,000 people to death in a single year upon suspicion of Witchcraft. ( Hamburg, AD 1595 ) Come to think of it, the US has never done anything even remotely like these things. Pretty nasy shit? OOOOh yeah. Bio-warfare against Indians in the 1880s comes to mind. However, we have never begun to approach the level of racism and genocide which has marked much of the rest of the world at one time or another.

Tragedies come in all different forms.

[GNOSIS]

Quote by: GNOSIS American Racism is on a completely different level, than racism in other cultures. I hate repeating myself...lemme see if i can find something i've written on this subject before

this is from another thread
This thread is about american slavery and what i beleive to be the worst among crimes against humanity. This is not meant to put a guilt trip on White people, what's done is done. I simply want to promote understanding among each other and tear down racist ideas. You can call me a black apologist if you'd like

why is it that blacks can't get off their feet...they aren't the only ones who've been persecuted or dehumanized systematically?

This question is valid
To answer it, i think one has to understand the psychological effects of american slavery.

I say "american slavery" becuase it is quite different from most other forms of enslavement known to man.

1) It was based exclusively on race/skin color
Most other instances of slavery were not so much about skin color as much as they were about where the person was from, or if they were from a rival/warring tribe etc...

2) the sins of the fathers passed on to the sons
Often with slavery, the sons/daughters of the slaves would be intergrated into society or allowed to go free. Sometimes it took a couple generations.

3) every trace of culture & history GONE
something like this can never be said for Jews. Even though they have gone through all kinds of persucution they were always able to maintain their culture and a sense of community. Jews have always had an advantage in that being a jew is often not only a religion with a set of practices, oral and written tradition but also being a jew can also be considerd a race.

4) DEHUMANIZATION
This is one of the more unique and devastating aspects of amercian slavery.
It is intersting to note that american slavery did not start this way. The dehumanization really started when blacks were established permanently as the slave race and there was no more indentured servitude.

What often stops people from brutalizing and exploiting each other, is an understanding that no matter our differences, we're still human. We feel and think the same things, we have the same needs and wants and preferably we'd all like to get along and be at peace with each other.

If you establish that a certain race or group is inhuman, it makes it easier for violence and exploitation to take place against that group. Essentually, blacks were reduced to nothing better than cattle. U could make the case that even cattle were given better treatment in some cases.

5) lumping together many different groups into one
becuase this system of slavery was based almost solely on the color of skin. For white europeans there was no distinction between members of the Zulu nation or any of the thousands of groups/subgroups in Africa. Once here these groups had a hard time forging a sense of community and solidarity among each other.

6) Unfamiliarity and distance from homeland
Blacks were unfamiliar with white people and vise versa. If your first encounter with a white person is on a horrific 3 month long boat trip along the atlantic, u might develop all sorts of ideas an stereotypes about what the rest of these people are like.

Going from a sub-saharan jungle to the falls and winters of Virginia is not an easy transition. There was NO HOPE of ever seeing your homeland or anything that u were acustomed to, EVER. This has to be pretty devastating as well.


I'm sure i missed something, but i hope u get the idea.

U might be saying, this happened hundreds of years ago, what does it have to do with TODAY."

The devastation to the human psyche cuased by slavery, carries from generation to generation much like alcoholism or poverty does.

When ignorance, suffering, and dehumanization is all u know, that's what u pass on. It's no surprise when u see an abusive parent and u find out that that person's parents were abusive to them as well.

There's also internalized racism and self fulfilling stereotypes. You can induce anorexia on a girl who is rail thin if you tell her she's fat enough times. Blacks were made to play dumb even if they weren't, that was simply their role. A black person who acted "smart" might have been seen as stepping out of place. When that type of mentality is put into u, generation after generation...it's hard to break out of it

The good news is as time goes by, african americans will free themselves of the mental slavery cuased by the system. Programs like affirmative action, and welfare were created and allowed to pass with the understanding that black people, women, and the poor in general, do not start life on equal footing with eveyone else. However there is no doubt in my mind, that part of the goal was to create a dependance on the system. This, like the system is INSECURE.

The people in power know exactly what they need to do to creat a more equitable and fair society in america and elsewhere, but they refuse to do it. Instead they create FALSE SCARCECITY. Why? many reasons which i hope we can discuss

Scarcecity=limitati.dependance=slavery

Abundance=choice=independence=Freedom

If you get nothing else from this little essay, just remember those 2 equations
and so continues slavery even in the modern world. The best way we can eliminate racism and mental slavery now, is by creating a more equitable , humane society, were we realize that we're all human and that we ned to look out for each other.

[rez]

I have a bad feeling that some people think slavery ended when the Union won. I also have a bad feeling that some people think racism ended in the 60s. I have another bad feeling that some people think thats its possible to lose racism in 40 years.


I live in Philadelphia, EVERY one of my friends has a racist attitude, especially as there in highschool.

Now this racist attitude is not as bad as a KKK memember, but its still there.

HOW can you objectively look at racism when you live in a WHITE country.

How does America even work? Some say its a melting pot (A +B + C = D) however, to me, it seems like its more A + B + C = A.

I liked how the topic poster brought up the fact that white women all over advertisments is a form of racism. It shows what exactly a person has to look like. You dont see some big nosed black person with nappy hair in advertisments, do you? You see a light skin black women with straight hair and a small nose...

You dont see fat white women with a big nose and freezy hair in advertisments you see perfection. I guess we should over look this part of racism, because of course nobody wants to see ugly people - everybody is beautiful, right? I guess all the eating disorders have to relate to something else besides the media...the media is not that powerful, right!?

This is common sense, if you live in a country that has a dominate culture then you conform to that culture, in the case of America its capitalism.

Marx was a sociologist not a communist. He simply observed how society works.

Dunedane and many other backwards people in this country feel that racism has to exist on a high scale level where people are dying and bad language is being said.


Suburbanite hates muslims because they attacked his country, yet muslims didnt attack his country!...Fundalmentalists attacked his country....dont associate muslims with fundalmentalists because I could associate christians with the funadementalists in the south........you know, the ones who blow up abortion clinics.

This is what racism is all about, peoples mis-understandings of others and their cultures. Dont simply say our country wasnt as bad as anothers, simply say "I DONT FEEL LIKE LEARNING ABOUT SOMEONE ELSES CULTURE, I HAVE A BUSNIESS TO RUN"

[castille]

I'm not American, I'm a capitalist, and I'm not racist. There you go. Racism has nothing to do with capitalism.

1) Stalin was racist against Soviet minorities. I think he is far from capitalist.

2) Somehow, I don't think Adolf Hitler enjoyed free market capitalism.

3) The European states were racist against the Arabs since 1000AD. And unless I'm sorely mistaken, I don't think the free market was even considered then.

Racism IS natural - humans are naturally fearful of outsiders. It isn't just racism, its any form of exclusion. Jocks & nerds, all-men and all-women clubs, etc are all forms of exclusion.


As for slavery and capitalism, that's beyond stupid. The ancient Romans, Persians, Japanese, Chinese, Celts, Goths, and Egyptians all took slaves. And they weren't capitalist.


(P.S. Can you stop using silly little pictures to demonstrate your point? They're wasting Volconvo's bandwith and serve no purpose, Mr Adolf).

[GNOSIS]

Quote by: castille I'm not American, I'm a capitalist, and I'm not racist. There you go. Racism has nothing to do with capitalism. 1) Stalin was racist against Soviet minorities. I think he is far from capitalist. 2) Somehow, I don't think Adolf Hitler enjoyed free market capitalism. 3) The European states were racist against the Arabs since 1000AD. And unless I'm sorely mistaken, I don't think the free market was even considered then. Racism IS natural - humans are naturally fearful of outsiders. It isn't just racism, its any form of exclusion. Jocks & nerds, all-men and all-women clubs, etc are all forms of exclusion. As for slavery and capitalism, that's beyond stupid. The ancient Romans, Persians, Japanese, Chinese, Celts, Goths, and Egyptians all took slaves. And they weren't capitalist. (P.S. Can you stop using silly little pictures to demonstrate your point? They're wasting Volconvo's bandwith and serve no purpose, Mr Adolf).

I swear to good people in this forum must be dumb or way too defensive

I made it very clear that Capitalism is a system that depends on divide and rule and racism is an expedient tool. I have many many reasons for wanting to get rid of Capitalism ....alliviating racism is just one of them

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: GNOSIS I made it very clear that Capitalism is a system that depends on divide and rule and racism is an expedient tool. I have many many reasons for wanting to get rid of Capitalism ....alliviating racism is just one of them

You haven't made that clear at all, actually.

[GNOSIS]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman You haven't made that clear at all, actually.

well i thought i did.......maybe not.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: GNOSIS Capitalism is competetion for scarce resources .

Competition for resources is not a feature of capitalism. It is a fact of human existence that predates capitalism by thousands of years. In fact, capitalism is the only system that allows resources to be allocated by a means other than force or threat of force. You work for it, you get it.

Quote by: GNOSIS Fired all the workers who went on strike and hired all black scabs. Who do you think the anger of the workers was directed at now? Not the bosses who had exploited them and then fired them when they made demands,but at those “filthy, lazy, niggers who came to steal their jobs”

Why would you blame the bosses? They're the ones who gave these people a job in the first place. How about blaming the ignorant protectionist white labor unions who actually believe the "filthy lazy niggers came to steal their job"??

Quote by: GNOSIS A poor black man is suspected of dealing drugs; he has 5-10 DEA agents bust his door open in the middle of the night, they throw him down on the floor, put a knee on his neck, read him his rights and drag him out like a dog.

This has nothing to do with capitalism. This is our government's illegal, racist war on drugs. I'm all for ending it.

Quote by: GNOSIS The ruling class loves nothing more than seeing working class blacks, fighting working class whites and competing for jobs and land and over petty ideological differences.

If the US has a ruling class (I wont deny it), it's because of corruption, cronyism and corporatism in our government. All governments are corrupt. This has nothing to do with capitalism.

Quote by: GNOSIS Capitalism always keeps racism alive in case it needs to play the racist card.

And just how exactly would "capitalism" do that?

What the heck do you think capitalism *is*, anyway??

[GNOSIS]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Why would you blame the bosses? They're the ones who gave these people a job in the first place. How about blaming the ignorant protectionist white labor unions who actually believe the "filthy lazy niggers came to steal their job"?? And just how exactly would "capitalism" do that?

umm that makes no sense... the miners went on strike becuase working conditions were unbearable. Workers of every color get exploited under this system. The bosses hired blacks for 3 reasons. They were cheaper, willing to work in the horrible conditions, and they knew it would incite class and race tensions away from them.



What the heck do you think capitalism *is*, anyway??
I use the same dictionary definition that u do
Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Pronunciation: 'ka-p&-t&l-"iz-&m, 'kap-t&l-, British also k&-'pi-t&l-
Function: noun
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: GNOSIS umm that makes no sense... the miners went on strike becuase working conditions were unbearable. Workers of every color get exploited under this system. The bosses hired blacks for 3 reasons. They were cheaper, willing to work in the horrible conditions, and they knew it would incite class and race tensions away from them.

So let me get this straight.

Let's say I invite two friends to my house. One of them is black and the other white. They fight because they are of different race.

This is somehow *my* fault?? *I* made them racist??

[castille]

Well, unless I'm living in another world, every political philosophy from feudalism to socialism has used racism as a tool.

Also, the "divide and conquer" concept is strategic. It has nothing to do with capitalism or socialism; its been done since tribal days.

[GNOSIS]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman So let me get this straight. Let's say I invite two friends to my house. One of them is black and the other white. They fight because they are of different race. This is somehow *my* fault?? *I* made them racist??

listen ..it doesn't even matter who's fault it is.
The point i was originally trying to make is that Racism causes divisions among people of similar interest. While the real enemy is profiting and getting away with doing what they want

got it?

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: GNOSIS listen ..it doesn't even matter who's fault it is.

So your argument isn't about capitalism after all...

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: rez I liked how the topic poster brought up the fact that white women all over advertisments is a form of racism. It shows what exactly a person has to look like. You dont see some big nosed black person with nappy hair in advertisments, do you? You see a light skin black women with straight hair and a small nose...

I disagree. These ads are not an example of what anyone should LOOK like as much as it is targeted to the people with the bread to spend on their product. If a big nosed black person with nappy hair will attract the BUYERS then she will be in the ads. Also, most ads featuring beautiful black people are AIMED at black people! Is the black consumer bigoted because of this?

You dont see fat white women with a big nose and freezy hair in advertisments you see perfection. I guess we should over look this part of racism, because of course nobody wants to see ugly people - everybody is beautiful, right? I guess all the eating disorders have to relate to something else besides the media...the media is not that powerful, right!?

The media is powerful to the gullible. That's all. But if you're trying to sell beer to guys, do you really think a fat, frizzy model will induce men to buy, or will the gorgeous model plant that thirst for their brand?
Unfair as it is, society values beauty and they show what is considered beautiful in their ads. This is the one and only reason you see what you see in advertisements. It is NOT racist in the least. If a turd on a rock will sell cars, there will not be an upsurge in less-attractive models in the media, they will ALL be unemployed.

[rez]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I disagree. These ads are not an example of what anyone should LOOK like as much as it is targeted to the people with the bread to spend on their product. If a big nosed black person with nappy hair will attract the BUYERS then she will be in the ads. Also, most ads featuring beautiful black people are AIMED at black people! Is the black consumer bigoted because of this?.

Why are there eating disorders? ummm because they see the models in ads and want to be as thin as them?

The problem is NOBODY wants to see a picture of a pure african women on TV. it doesnt sell because America is white.

Answer this question.......is OJ Simpson from a black cultural background or from a white cultural background.


The media is powerful to the gullible. That's all. But if you're trying to sell beer to guys, do you really think a fat, frizzy model will induce men to buy, or will the gorgeous model plant that thirst for their brand?
Unfair as it is, society values beauty and they show what is considered beautiful in their ads. This is the one and only reason you see what you see in advertisements. It is NOT racist in the least. If a turd on a rock will sell cars, there will not be an upsurge in less-attractive models in the media, they will ALL be unemployed.[/quote]

"Unfair as it is, society values beauty and they show what is considered beautiful in their ads" What is considered beautiful in American society and why?!

you live in a country that adopts the dominant culture A + B + C = A