Legal reform in England

[EasyUK]

yes sorry chris haha, that was his claim but it opened up the wider issue which has been at the heart of a good deal of legal reformist movements!

[EasyUK]

Why precisely are you, quite literally, demonising the Lib-Dems?

The liberal democrats?! hahaha neeed you ask? Because they shouldn't be anywhere near power -maybe I sacrificed accuracy there for a slight not so funny pun- but generally I do believe that the Tories should be left to do it alone, they would be far more efficient and affective without the Liberals. The fact is that they have broken many promises while the conservatives have followed out the coherent policy of debt reduction from the start. Much bad press has been generated for the government because of Liberal cock ups. To get an idea at how good we are at this policy I would like to direct your attention to the beginning of the economic boom in England, and Margerat Thatcher... thank you.

[Angry Citizen]

The liberal democrats?! hahaha neeed you ask? Because they shouldn't be anywhere near power -maybe I sacrificed accuracy there for a slight not so funny pun- but generally I do believe that the Tories should be left to do it alone, they would be far more efficient and affective without the Liberals. The fact is that they have broken many promises while the conservatives have followed out the coherent policy of debt reduction from the start. Much bad press has been generated for the government because of Liberal cock ups. To get an idea at how good we are at this policy I would like to direct your attention to the beginning of the economic boom in England, and Margerat Thatcher... thank you.

You just declared war with the Scots, mate.

[el ايمان]

Since the premise has been set outside of America, I have to ask: are the "Tories" center while the liberals are left of center, or are the Tories left of center while the liberals are all the way over on the far wings of leftist socialism?

I ascribe to the belief that there are indeed "degrees" of rape, and if a girl went out partying and then had "consensual" drunk sex with some guy, it was a bad decision on her part. If the guy drugged her or used her drunken condition to forcibly have sex with her, I'd consider it rape.

[EasyUK]

Some say everytime an English man or a Scotsman crosses the border he declares war! So theoretically we have been at War with them since 1603!

[Angry Citizen]

Tories are center-right, lib-dems are center-left, and labour are full-blown left (although not to the extent that some left-wing parties are in continental Europe). Tories would be sorta like blue dog democrats in America.

[EasyUK]

Yes correct Welshman well noticed, do you think I am unaware of what he said?.... however none the less for the sake of theoretical consistency we should suppose that his arguments would tend along the lines of what I have mentioned above.
Anyway aren't you a liberal it sounds like I am attacking him yet I vote conservative , and you defending him... the world is confused.

[el ايمان]

Tories are center-right, lib-dems are center-left, and labour are full-blown left (although not to the extent that some left-wing parties are in continental Europe). Tories would be sorta like blue dog democrats in America.

Thanks. Now I know which way to shoot my biased remarks.

[Chris the Chees]

The liberal democrats?! hahaha neeed you ask? Because they shouldn't be anywhere near power -maybe I sacrificed accuracy there for a slight not so funny pun- but generally I do believe that the Tories should be left to do it alone, they would be far more efficient and affective without the Liberals. The fact is that they have broken many promises while the conservatives have followed out the coherent policy of debt reduction from the start. Much bad press has been generated for the government because of Liberal cock ups. To get an idea at how good we are at this policy I would like to direct your attention to the beginning of the economic boom in England, and Margerat Thatcher... thank you.

LOL, what a load of tosh. Thatcher did not hereld an economic boom, in fact she inhereted an economic recovery. She then proceeded to jepodize it, as well as laid the seeds of the current economic mealtdown we are suffering by deregulating the banks and the housing market, as well as creating an unnecessary culture of homeowning when she flogged the council houses (at way under their value, I might add). She also led the policies of privatising British industry, which has been near universally disasterous - just look at the abject failure of the railways. Thatcher, economically speaking, is one of out most disasterous leaders in modern history.

I do believe that the Tories should be left to do it alone, they would be far more efficient and affective without the Liberals.

Given that the Liberals have compromised to the hilt on each of their core issues, clearly you are talking rubbish yet again. Let us review, their two main planks were student fees and PR.

On the student fees the leadership capitulated entirely to the Tory position, and now students will be sadled wqith the most expensive higher education in the developed world. More over a system which has been shown does not work. Numerous independent bodies have investigated the system and shown that the new system will eventually cost the tax payer as much as it currently does because of limited repayment/inflation. Secondly, their notion that the new system would encourage price competition has, as was again predicted by everybody with even a modicum of intelligence, proven to be abjectly wrong. Contrary to Tory nonsense, nearly every university has charged the full £9,000.

On PR, the lib-dems again allowed them selves to be bent over and f****d by the Tories, by compromising with the AV system, which was always going to fail because it is nearly as useless as FPTP.

So please explain just what the Lib-Dems have done to halt or even slow Tory machinations?

The fact is that they have broken many promises

Wait, on the one hand you contend that they are preventing the Tories doing what need be done, yet now you tell us that they have broken promises, which can only be to toe the Tory drawn line. Which is it?

Tories are center-right, lib-dems are center-left, and labour are full-blown left (although not to the extent that some left-wing parties are in continental Europe). Tories would be sorta like blue dog democrats in America.

Nope. The Tories are rightwing - there is no centre involved. The Lib-Dems are centre right, as has the Labour Party been since John Smith's leadership in the early 90s. Though I would say that even though the Tories are rightwing, the entire political spectum of US politics is a hefty step to the right of UK politics. The Tory line is one akin to moderate Republicans such as John McCain.

[Angry Citizen]

On PR, the lib-dems again allowed them selves to be bent over and f****d by the Tories, by compromising with the AV system, which was always going to fail because it is nearly as useless as FPTP.

Huh?

Nope. The Tories are rightwing - there is no centre involved. The Lib-Dems are centre right, as has the Labour Party been since John Smith's leadership in the early 90s.

Guess it depends on your perspective. From the far left, as you certainly seem to be, anything is construed as far right. We also have to remember that lib-dems have different factions within them. One, which I feel is the most ideologically dominant, is the center-left faction. The other is a center-right faction, which is the most politically dominant.

As for the tories, they are most definitely center-right. To say they're fully right wing is absolute nonsense. The right wing is dead in Europe.

[Chris the Chees]

Huh?

Recently we have a referendum on electoral reform, specifically whether we wanted to replace the current system of first past the post with Alternative Vote (aka Instant-runoff voting (IRV)). The lib-dems actually favour proportional representation (PR), but compromised on worthless AV, which nobody actually wants, and that is the reason why the public voted against it - including many who do want to see major change.

Guess it depends on your perspective.

Not really. The Tories are largely pro-privatisation, anti-immigration, nationalistic, hawkish, anti-devolution, pro-C of E, etc. There is not a single policy area, save perhaps the environment where they are truly centre.

To cite the political compass:

From the far left, as you certainly seem to be, anything is construed as far right.

Surely as a Libertarian, of the US ilk, the same goes for you too, but from the opposite perspective. Of course, being an American I don't expect you (and clear that you aren't) to be familiar with either the politics or the parties we are discussing. But you will note I didn't describe them as 'far' right. I contended, accurately that they are several steps away from the centre. That is not to say that they are 'far' right. Indeed I would suggest that the people at the Political Compass actually place the Tories (and Labour for that matter) too far to the right and the authoritarian on that diagram.

We also have to remember that lib-dems have different factions within them.

So do all parties. That doesn't alter the fact that the lib-dems produced a centre-right manifesto and have persued centre-right policies while in government. That is because that centre-left wing element of the party has been rendered dormant and disenfranchised by the dominant National Liberal strain of the party - i.e. Nick Clegg and the rest of the Lib-Dem leadership. Indeed it wouldn't supprise me if Nick Clegg left the Party for the Tories before the next election and is moved to a safe Tory seat in the south. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

One, which I feel is the most ideologically dominant, is the center-left faction.

Which doesn't tell us anything about their policies, only your lack of familiarity with the topic on which you are holding forth. The fact is you would be extremely hard pressed to find a single policy/action (except on the nuclear deterent and again the environment - though it must be stressed that it is actually the Tories who had the most progressive policy on the environment out of all three major Parties) in which the Lib Dems have even a left of centre position. In fact Nick Clegg actually said it best himself:

"For the left, an obsession with the state. For the right, a worship of the market. But as liberals, we place our faith in people. People with power and opportunity in their hands. Our opponents try to divide us with their outdated labels of left and right. But we are not on the left and we are not on the right. We have our own label: Liberal. We are liberals and we own the freehold to the centre ground of British politics. Our politics is the politics of the radical centre."

Though of course there is nothing remotely radical about either his, or his parties, policies or politics. And his policies, and those persued by his party, too the right of centre.

As for the tories, they are most definitely center-right. To say they're fully right wing is absolute nonsense. The right wing is dead in Europe.

Sorry, but you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. The current dominant party is the European People's Party which is a coaltion (for lack of a better word, it is actually a party in its own right) of rightwing parties. Of the 27 positions on the council, 15 of them are filled by conservatives of that party and they control the largest number of seats in the European Parlaiment. In every respect conservatives outweigh the left in European politics.

[Angry Citizen]

Not really. The Tories are largely pro-privatisation, anti-immigration, nationalistic, hawkish, anti-devolution, pro-C of E, etc. There is not a single policy area, save perhaps the environment where they are truly centre.

Of course they're pro-privatization in a country filled with nationalization. They are center-right, not center-left after all. I think the entirety of Europe is anti-immigration -- I don't even qualify for a job at the European Space Agency, simply because I'm not a European or Canadian. I have no idea what you mean by 'nationalistic'. They are no more hawkish than the left in the UK, and considering the most they've done so far is save tens of thousands of people in Libya, I don't know what you're complaining about. 'Anti-devolution' doesn't make any sense. And I can't find anything about the Church of England on their website, so apparently it's not much of a priority for them.

To cite the political compass:

What is their metric? Without the raw data, it's little more than dots on a graph. Utterly pointless.

\Surely as a Libertarian, of the US ilk, the same goes for you too, but from the opposite perspective.

I'm farther left than most democrats, thanks.

Of course, being an American I don't expect you (and clear that you aren't) to be familiar with either the politics or the parties we are discussing.

*facepalm* And being a European, I don't expect you to cease your mindless generalizations -- ever. I'm quite familiar with British politics. Like I mentioned earlier, the Conservatives in the UK would best be compared to socially conservative blue dog democrats. You may consider that far right, but truth be told, the fact that they support things like the NHS is proof that they're really quite moderate. They believe in gay rights, climate change, progressive tax rates, a minimum wage, and hell, they even support unemployment. Sounds very right wing to me. /sarcasm

But you will note I didn't describe them as 'far' right. I contended, accurately that they are several steps away from the centre.

Fair enough. But center-right implies that they are several steps away from center. Noone's arguing otherwise. Only that they're not even close to far right, nor are they appropriately labelled generic right. They are quite on the center of things in UK politics, although like I touched on earlier, I suspect UK politic as a whole is more right-wing than most of continental Europe.

So do all parties. That doesn't alter the fact that the lib-dems produced a centre-right manifesto and have persued centre-right policies while in government. That is because that centre-left wing element of the party has been rendered dormant and disenfranchised by the dominant National Liberal strain of the party - i.e. Nick Clegg and the rest of the Lib-Dem leadership. Indeed it wouldn't supprise me if Nick Clegg left the Party for the Tories before the next election and is moved to a safe Tory seat in the south. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they're coalitioned with the Conservatives at present. A Lib-Dem/Conservative coalition isn't going to embrace left wing policies. The reason I consider Lib-Dems traitors -- aside from the tuition issue, which, despite the fact that I would be unaffected by it even if I went to a UK school, is something I care deeply about -- is because they haven't used their position to inflict a greater moderating influence on the Conservatives. However, I think we'll see that the Lib-Dems are a zombie party at present. They'll be almost as extinct as the Canadian Bloc Quebecois after next election.

Oh wait, I'm a stupid American, why would I know what the Bloc Quebecois is.

Which doesn't tell us anything about their policies, only your lack of familiarity with the topic on which you are holding forth. The fact is you would be extremely hard pressed to find a single policy/action (except on the nuclear deterent and again the environment - though it must be stressed that it is actually the Tories who had the most progressive policy on the environment out of all three major Parties) in which the Lib Dems have even a left of centre position. In fact Nick Clegg actually said it best himself:

"For the left, an obsession with the state. For the right, a worship of the market. But as liberals, we place our faith in people. People with power and opportunity in their hands. Our opponents try to divide us with their outdated labels of left and right. But we are not on the left and we are not on the right. We have our own label: Liberal. We are liberals and we own the freehold to the centre ground of British politics. Our politics is the politics of the radical centre."

Though of course there is nothing remotely radical about either his, or his parties, policies or politics. And his policies, and those persued by his party, too the right of centre.

They support the NHS:

"We believe in fairness with entitlements to healthcare guaranteed. We believe access to personal care should be based on need not the ability to pay. And we believe that patients should always come first."

This is surely a right wing value:

"At the core of Liberal Democrats philosophy is a belief in equality of opportunity. Fighting discrimination in all its forms underpins our policies."

Are anti-Iraq:

"British people used to be proud of what our country stood for. But Britain’s reputation has been damaged by dodgy arms deals with dictators, allegations of involvement in torture, and of course the disastrous and illegal invasion of Iraq."

Are anti-corporate:

"We will also crack down on big business and the super rich who exploit tax loopholes and do not pay their fair share."

Sorry, but you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

You always say that about me, but in your arrogance you refuse to see that I simply disagree with your interpretation of the facts. I am no ignorant, cliche American. But you are certainly a cliche European.