Don't be afraid to say Merry Christmas, its your right

[Gorgo]

You're right. I don't "pick up" on whatever it is you're trying to say. Sorry, I don't begin to understand your point.

Quote by: kharmajunkie I'm sorry you don't pick up on exageration and sarcasm then; I think both sides should have some balance is the only point I'm trying to make. Apparently you and the Jesus freaks don't have that many differences after all since you seem to share their closeminded attitude towards your fellow citizen's rights.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Gorgo, thats just THE PROBLEM guy, the state ISN'T propping religion up. You see it that way and THAT thinking is what's wrong. Having the freedom to express religious beliefs does not equate to state propping up a religion.

When you get that flaw out of your thinking, then maybe you will see the light and realize that while you hate religion, the freedom of others to express religious beliefs is a protected right.

[Gorgo]

Again, 'V', you keep repeating the same thing over and over, but you're not saying anything. You have offered nothing which says that your right to express yourself has been taken away by anyone.

The only restraint we've been talking about is the Constitutional separation of church and state. The state cannot promote religion. Once you become a representative of the state, you do not, in your official capacity, promote religion. Try to focus on the words on the page. You have no problem here. You're getting hysterical about something that just doesn't happen. In fact, it happens that the Constitution is violated by people who put mangers on government lawns, not by people who protest this violation of the Constitution.

[kharmajunkie]

Quote by: Gorgo You're right. I don't "pick up" on whatever it is you're trying to say. Sorry, I don't begin to understand your point.

What, too subtle for you Gorgo? I feel sorry for you and people like you that confuse civil rights violations with being annoyed. As I said earlier, you must live in a problem free community if Jewish stars and mangers are a big concern there.

[Gorgo]

I think we've established that you don't like people, including yourself. Not sure why your need to feel sorry is relevant to a discussion, but we see you don't respect people or their civil rights.

[kharmajunkie]

Quote by: Gorgo I think we've established that you don't like people, including yourself. Not sure why your need to feel sorry is relevant to a discussion, but we see you don't respect people or their civil rights.

No, we've established that you're a liar if you stand by the above post. If you can't come up with a better argument than "you don't like people/don't respect their civil rights" then
you should go find one. I exagerated to make a point and you lie and use it against me, that's not an argument sweetheart. And I don't care if feeling sorry for you is relevant to the
discussion, I can't help but feel sorry for an adult that's too dense to not understand exageration, nuance and sarcasm.

[kharmajunkie]

Quote by: Gorgo The only restraint we've been talking about is the Constitutional separation of church and state. The state cannot promote religion. Once you become a representative of the state, you do not, in your official capacity, promote religion. Try to focus on the words on the page. You have no problem here. You're getting hysterical about something that just doesn't happen. In fact, it happens that the Constitution is violated by people who put mangers on government lawns, not by people who protest this violation of the Constitution.

You're half right, neither party is having their constitutional rights violated; they're just overly sensitive and need attention. It's a very disingenuous argument on your part to say
that the state cannot "promote" a specific religion when it's not being "promoted" (that's your sneaky wordplay). How is anyone promoting a religion? It's being acknowledged, not promoted. When someone is promoting something, they're trying to get you to try it. It sounds to me like you want your government to provide you with "religious deniability" so to speak; by censoring religious expression.

[bishop]

personally, i always say merry christmas - sometimes jokingly i'll say happy christmas - instead of happy holidays.. unless, of course, i'm talking to someone who i think may not be christian.. why would i say happy christmas to a jew/muslim? they could respond like, "happy hannakuh." and that would be needlessly stupid.

[Gorgo]

Your insulting posts add to the idea that you don't think much of yourself. It's you that don't understand subtlety. I understood very well what you were saying about being single, I was simply saying that if, in fact, you find that single people are treated as second-class citizens, then it is a civil rights issue. Try to focus on the words on the page rather than your hatred of yourself and humankind.

Quote by: kharmajunkie You're half right, neither party is having their constitutional rights violated; they're just overly sensitive and need attention. It's a very disingenuous argument on your part to say that the state cannot "promote" a specific religion when it's not being "promoted" (that's your sneaky wordplay). How is anyone promoting a religion? It's being acknowledged, not promoted. When someone is promoting something, they're trying to get you to try it. It sounds to me like you want your government to provide you with "religious deniability" so to speak; by censoring religious expression.

[kharmajunkie]

Quote by: Gorgo Your insulting posts add to the idea that you don't think much of yourself. It's you that don't understand subtlety. I understood very well what you were saying about being single, I was simply saying that if, in fact, you find that single people are treated as second-class citizens, then it is a civil rights issue. Try to focus on the words on the page rather than your hatred of yourself and humankind.

You say I'm insulting you yet it's ok for you to categorize me as hating human kind.
No Gorgo, you don't get it then; I don't actually think single people are second class citizens. Again, you're just proving that you don't get the point. I was exagerating and using Valentine's day as an example to show you how ridiculous people sound when they
get self righteous and try to make an issue out of something as innocuous as holiday decorations.

[Gorgo]

Again, focus on the words on the page. I know that you were exaggerating. Do you eat breakfast? You seem to have an attention problem.

I didn't say anything about 'holiday decorations.' I said that manger scenes and other religious promotion on government property is unconstitutional. OUR government is not in the business of promoting religion. There are plenty of other places to do that.

[kharmajunkie]

If you knew I was being sarcastic then why did you take what I said so seriously and accuse me of hating the world because of my being single on Valentine's day rant?
My focus is fine and I comprehended everything you said, I just think that it shows how unbalanced you are in this area. One of us doesn't understand the first amendment and I know that most people will side with you on this but all that proves is how ultra sensitive and hypocritical the garden variety republicrat is. You say I hate the world, well I know I have issues but I don't let my bias's against religious fundamentalists get to the point were I'm claiming oppression because of their demonstrative holiday attitude.

[Gorgo]

Never mind. Move on. My mistake. If you say I'm wrong, I must be wrong.

[bishop]

score one for christmas.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/18/tree.ban.ap/index.html

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: bishop score one for christmas. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/18/tree.ban.ap/index.html

In a revised decision Friday, the attorney said that a Christmas tree is a purely secular symbol, along with Santa Claus and candy canes.

Nice to know someone else sees this the same way. I've always felt that all the decorations and "fun stuff" unfortunately share the same holiday as the "other" Christmas, but they are NOT Christmas and only superficially tied in with a religious observance.

I've never had a problem with lights and trees and santas and even nativity scenes, but if people DO, OTOH it doesn't bother me that City Hall doesn't show the stuff either. In Delaware, we have a guy named Foucher who puts up about 100,000 lights on his home every year and people even come from other states to see the show. There is some evangelical church down the road that does the same thing, so even IF City Hall put up a display it would just be pathetic and lame by comparison anyway.

(edit to add): A non-government sponsored bit of the holidays <needs quick time>Santa

[bishop]

imo, you have to be a miserable sob to start bitching about christmas trees when it's christmas. i'm not much of a christian these days (i still believe in god, but not the "christ came down to save us" mumbo jumbo), but i could care less if i saw a nativity scene. hell... my girlfriend could put one up in our window and i wouldn't care (she's not much of a christian either though). i always thought holidays were the few times of year where you can chill out a bit and leave the ego alone. christmas trees, nativity scenes, psychotic twits at the mall... it's all a part of christmas.

[Seeker_Of_Sins]

"Deck the halls with boughs of non-endangered plant species
Fa la la la la, la la la la
'Tis the season to be self-actualizing,
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Don we now our alternate-lifestyle apparel
Fa la la la la, la la la la
Toll the ancient non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday carol
Fa la la la la, la la la la

See the blazing log of non-denominational-winter-solstice-holiday-
non-endangered wood before us,
Play the harp without unnecessary brutality and join the chorus
Sing we emotionally stable in a collective group effort,
Heedless of the weather patterns despite the effects of global
warming,

Fast away the chronologically challenged year passes
Hail the new year without any implicit ageism, ye persons
Dance in a non-hierarchical manner in merry measure,
While I tell of non-materialistic, non-denominational-winter-
solstice-holiday treasure,
Fa la la la la, la la LA LA..."

[Scribbler1]

Seeker,
LOL. Very good but someone beat you to it.
Find a song by "The Therapy Sisters" called "Happy Whatever You're Having".

[Seeker_Of_Sins]

Twas the Night before Xmas and all through the bach
Not even a weta was making a scratch
Woolly socks were hung by the pot belly with care
In the hopes that Santa soon would be there

The children were snoozing in a light summer's breeze
Whilst dreaming of spongy pud and lime green cream freeze
And dad in his walk shorts and me in my jandals
Had just settled down for a couple of handles

When out on the lawn I heard such a ruckus
I sprang from my Lazy Boy to see what the fuss was
I ran to the sliding door, gasping and wheezing
Threw open the curtains and upped the venetians

The moon on the sand and the Trailer tarp
Lit the beach up just like Eden Park
But still when I saw, I thought I was asleep
A miniature Kingswood, pulled by eight tiny sheep

With a little old driver, sipping a Fanta
I knew in a moment, it had to be Santa
Faster than Phar Lap on steroids they came
And he coo-eed and shouted and called them by name

Now, Kevin! now, Sharlene! now, Rangi and Beck!
on, Darryl! on Shazza! on, Bilbo and Shrek!
To the top of the Pagoda, to the top of the wall
Get in behind, Get in behind, Get in behind, All!

As sandflies around a bar-b-que fly
When they sniff the sizzlers and take to the sky
So up to the top of the bach they flew
With a boot full of toys and Santa Claus too

With a handbrake stop, they arrived on the roof
Four Goodyear tyres and 32 hoofs
And as I quickly turned and ran to the lounge
Out from the chimney Santa came with a bound

He was wearing boardshorts, and gumboots on foot
And his Mambos were covered in six-month-old soot
A bundle of toys he had on his back
As if on OE with a brand new Macpac

He looked like he'd come from the beauty parlour
With rosy red cheeks like pohutakawa
A gorgeous big grin and white as white hair
With wee little tufts growing out of his ears

He had a broad chest and a round beer gut
That shook when he laughed like Jabba the Hutt
He was chubby and plump, a right jolly hobbit
And I laughed when I saw him, I couldn't stop it

He gave me a wink and a bonza thumbs up
And I quickly realised he wasn't a nut
He went straight to the socks without saying a thing
And filled them with barbies and Shrek 2 keyrings

Then giving his nose a jolly good scratch
He flew up the chimney with an almighty flash
He jumped in the Kingswood and cranked the ignition
And then they took off, like some NASA mission

But I think I could hear, as he drove out of sight
"Merry Christmas to all, have a jolly good night!"


Have a merry xmas all,

from the sunny Kiwi

[Gorgo]

Can't argue with that really, but that's basically how the motto "In God We Trust" stays on the money. Because it doesn't really mean anything. It's just a saying. These "victories" really only water down the meaning of religion. One of the many reasons that separation of church and state is a good idea.

I don't care that much about trees, although I can't see government spending money on meaningless stupid looking crap when there are people who don't have enough. It's the overt displays of religion that I have a big problem with.

Quote by: bishop score one for christmas. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/18/tree.ban.ap/index.html