Don't be afraid to say Merry Christmas, its your right

[Gorgo]

Are you saying that the majority of the people of the U.S. do not support the Constitutional separation of church and state? That's quite a statement.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Pale RIder The mainstream media gladly puts any small group who has a gripe on the camera and creates the impression that the small group is far larger than it is...And conservatives by nature do not protest or raise a big stink over what they consider "petty" issues.

Well, I can think of ONE conservative who does. But that's not the point. Vicchio was implying that minority pressure groups were essentially TELLING the majority what to do and they are DOING it! He was blaming the liberals for removing, or not allowing Christmas decorations and other outward expressions of the holiday, as if they could force that isue without the approval of the conservatives. "Impressions" don't matter. Does the minority have that kind of power or not?

I have noticed small changes in that attitude however...this Christmas season is a good example...across the country, people are becoming fed up with minorities who are willing to see Christmas removed from the public view and demonstrating that the minority will not rule the majority...with every victory over the vocal minority, the majority learns something...perhaps in a year or two...or three, the voice that small angry and very vocal minority will be rendered completely irrelavent...

Just tell me HOW the minority in ANYTHING can force the majority to do its bidding. It would help the discussion if you can explain that. I don't see where the smaller group has any power NOT given to it be the larger and I need some clarification here.
You are saying the majority is tired of being ruled by the minority. If this is true then I doubt the majority can do anything about it because they are too damn dumb to realize they ALREADY have the power to nullify anything the minority wants.

And this typical demonization of liberals is getting really old. If you are saying liberals don't like Christmas and want to tear the holiday away from the TRUE christian conservatives, I would like to see some facts to back that up because I think that position is pure bullshit.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Well, I can think of ONE conservative who does. But that's not the point. Vicchio was implying that minority pressure groups were essentially TELLING the majority what to do and they are DOING it! He was blaming the liberals for removing, or not allowing Christmas decorations and other outward expressions of the holiday, as if they could force that isue without the approval of the conservatives. "Impressions" don't matter. Does the minority have that kind of power or not? Just tell me HOW the minority in ANYTHING can force the majority to do its bidding. It would help the discussion if you can explain that. I don't see where the smaller group has any power NOT given to it be the larger and I need some clarification here. You are saying the majority is tired of being ruled by the minority. If this is true then I doubt the majority can do anything about it because they are too damn dumb to realize they ALREADY have the power to nullify anything the minority wants. And this typical demonization of liberals is getting really old. If you are saying liberals don't like Christmas and want to tear the holiday away from the TRUE christian conservatives, I would like to see some facts to back that up because I think that position is pure bullshit.

I am often surprised by how shallow people's understanding of any given situation can be, but since you need some explanation, your entire line of questioning can be summed up in two words...JUDICIAL ACTIVISM...

How much of the liberal agenda has been foisted upon the nation, not by any voting block..or by any legislative process...but by a black robed judge who agreed with a few "offended" whiners?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Gorgo Are you saying that the majority of the people of the U.S. do not support the Constitutional separation of church and state? That's quite a statement.

I am saying that only in the past few decades has a Christmas tree on the lawn of the courthouse been construed as having anything to do with the imaginary separation of church and state that you seem to believe exists in the constitution...

Most of this "separation" that has taken place can also be laid at the feet of judicial activism...it certainly isn't due to any legislative process...

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Pale RIder I am often surprised by how shallow people's understanding of any given situation can be, but since you need some explanation, your entire line of questioning can be summed up in two words...JUDICIAL ACTIVISM... How much of the liberal agenda has been foisted upon the nation, not by any voting block..or by any legislative process...but by a black robed judge who agreed with a few "offended" whiners?

Or agreed with a logical, constitutionally based argument. It all depends on your outlook as to WHICH decision is wrong and which is right. Plus, not all judges are liberals. Plus, if the conservatives had such a problem with a certain judge they could be quite effective at stopping an appointment.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Pale RIder I am saying that only in the past few decades has a Christmas tree on the lawn of the courthouse been construed as having anything to do with the imaginary separation of church and state that you seem to believe exists in the constitution... Most of this "separation" that has taken place can also be laid at the feet of judicial activism...it certainly isn't due to any legislative process...

I don't have any problem with Christmas. But I do recognize the fact that a LOT of people see this as some kind of "universal" holiday, which it isn't. I cannot recall ONE time when a Jew came up to me and wished me a Happy Hanukkah. I've never KNOWN anyone who was in that situation unless he was known to be Jewish as well. Yet, Christians seem to expect everyone will be thrilled to be wished a "Merry Christmas."
I think that is at the heart of the matter and conservatives seem to want to shift the focus to some kind of religious restriction, which it isn't.
I have never heard anyone say you can't put a Christmas decoration on your car, on your home, on your business or anywhere BUT taxpayer funded government buildings.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Or agreed with a logical, constitutionally based argument. It all depends on your outlook as to WHICH decision is wrong and which is right. Plus, not all judges are liberals. Plus, if the conservatives had such a problem with a certain judge they could be quite effective at stopping an appointment.

True, not all judges are liberals...but certain courts have been responsible for a great deal of the modern liberalism that has been foisted upon us..the 9th circuit comes to mind...and a large majority of the judges that are responsible for the activism were put in place back when republicans held little, if any power within either house of congress...of course, that is, at long last, beginning to change...which explains much of the panic on the left within the senate..

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Pale RIder The mainstream media gladly puts any small group who has a gripe on the camera and creates the impression that the small group is far larger than it is...And conservatives by nature do not protest or raise a big stink over what they consider "petty" issues. I have noticed small changes in that attitude however...this Christmas season is a good example...across the country, people are becoming fed up with minorities who are willing to see Christmas removed from the public view and demonstrating that the minority will not rule the majority...with every victory over the vocal minority, the majority learns something...perhaps in a year or two...or three, the voice that small angry and very vocal minority will be rendered completely irrelavent...

The mainstream media gladly puts any small group who has a gripe on the camera and creates the impression that the small group is far larger than it is...

Yes and no. For instance, this weekend during voter's right's protests, most of the mainstream media stayed home locally. But, yes, it does happen. If you saw the wider shot the mainstream media didn't publish when Saddam's statue was pulled down it showed only a few were there, yet the media claimed thousands. Before the war thousands marched the streets in many cities, yet the media kept claiming a handful. Yet I'm sure those who protest for the Pro-Life cause have similar complaints.

And conservatives by nature do not protest or raise a big stink over what they consider "petty" issues.

The operative word here is "they." I would call Janet Jackson's breast "petty," especially considering the other content on that atrocity the entertainment industry does every year so they can kiss their own collective ass. But thousands of complaints were made, apparently over 90% by one very small group.

In reality those on the Left consider what the Right often complains about as "petty" at best, and vica versa. They all use the same words like "whining," "tyranny of the minority" and insults far worse. Frankly it has raised the level of conversation in this country to worse than a tantrum pounding, spoiled rotten, asshole, 10 year old bully.Many in the baby boom and their kids apparently have yet to get beyond "baby."

Kinda makes it hard to enjoy the season, doncha think?

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I don't have any problem with Christmas. But I do recognize the fact that a LOT of people see this as some kind of "universal" holiday, which it isn't. I cannot recall ONE time when a Jew came up to me and wished me a Happy Hanukkah. I've never KNOWN anyone who was in that situation unless he was known to be Jewish as well. Yet, Christians seem to expect everyone will be thrilled to be wished a "Merry Christmas." I think that is at the heart of the matter and conservatives seem to want to shift the focus to some kind of religious restriction, which it isn't. I have never heard anyone say you can't put a Christmas decoration on your car, on your home, on your business or anywhere BUT taxpayer funded government buildings.

Personal anecdote doesn't carry much weight...I am a dentist and I get wished happy everything that you can think of by my patients...If I don't adhere to whatever happy holiday that they are wishing me, I thank them anyway... I am Christian, but have no problem at all with a minora (sp?) or dredle (sp?) being displayed on public buildings during the appropriate holiday...or decorations appropriate to any other religion...I only have a problem with people who want to exclude Christmas, but don't seem to have a problem with other religions...which seems to be the trend in public schools these days.

[Scribbler1]

I would agree that if you exclude Christmas from government property (which is what this whole thing is about) you should exclude ALL religions. I draw the line at forbidding SAYING "Merry Christmas" in a school or mentioning Santa Claus though. Only the religious angle should be removed and Santa has precious little to do with religion although the day coincides with the supposed birth of Christ.
The bottom line is, there is NO fun in religion but Christmas is fun for kids. I think we adults have left these kids a fucked up enough world to begin with and they are aware of this at an earlier age than my generation was, so let them enjoy Santa and the tree and we should all go bitch about something else.

[Osborn F Enready]

Vic said: Don't be afraid to say Merry Christmas, its your right

I say: Don't be offended when I exercise my right to free speech, and tell you to FUCK OFF after saying it.

We all have free speech, as well as freedom of expression, not just Christians.

How would Vic feel if he were greeted each day with a belief contrary to his own? Maybe some such as this....

Happy American Dictatorship Day!
Happy Consumer Day!
Happy Pro-Abortion Day!

Something tells me he would take it as a "dig" against his beliefs.

Christians just can't accept that they have been allowed many "privlidges" of acceptance in law since they were of the majority during the time of our creation as a nation.

They are getting upset now that non-religious, or non-christians are removing those "assumed" privilidges in the name of equality to all under the words of the Constitution.

The slave owners were upset when slaves demanded to be recognized as equal under the words of the Constitution.

People who thought women were inferior to men were upset when women demanded to be considered equal to men in the eyes of the law, under the words of the Constitution.

Anti-gays are now upset, because gays and lesbians want to be considered equal to hetero-sexuals in the eyes of the law, under the words of the Constitution.

Christians are now upset, because other religions, and non-religious people are demanding their right to be given equal coverage, or have christianity EQUALLY REMOVED from law, as intended under the words of the Constitution.


It is yet another battle for EQUALITY under the eyes of the law. A battle where the Constitution EMPOWERS THEM, instead of EXCLUDES THEM, as intended.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I could careless how you greeted me. Thats your right.

What you, and the progressive secularist that side with you on this one fail to miss is, you are denying us our constitutionally protected freedom of religion, religious express and speech.

Some how you have taken the first amendment to mean "Freedom from Religion".

It's a sad sad day in America when Christmas is banned in a school, school play or a Christmas Tree is renamed. This is tyranny of the minority and what you guys are missing is the backlash is building and the pendulmn, which was sadly swinging your way is about to shift, and I have a feeling its going to hit your side square in the face as it swings back ot the right on this and a number of issues.

So smugly feel you have the moral high ground to subvert the 1st amendment and deny others thier rights, we're sick of it and the winds of change have been blowing in our favor.

[Gorgo]

Mr. 'V' doesn't like religion very much. Otherwise he wouldn't need the state to prop it up. As I said. He has no problem. He can go to church on any street corner. He can stand on his car at a stop light and preach if he wants to.

All we're asking is for is our Constitutional separation of church and state. He doesn't like the Constitution either.

[kharmajunkie]

I have a low opinion of people that complain about tv/radio content and use their kids as the excuse for being offended. They're usually fundychristians with no sense of humor because some jaggoff told
them Jesus didn't have one. I and many others on this board on a thread, probably titled "down with the FCC" if I started it, have made statements to the effect of "if you don't like it, change the channel".
Aren't we being hypocritical if we don't "change the channel" so to speak, around this time of year?
Are decorated trees and Mennorahs really the cause of America's social ills? No and calling this a civil rights issue is an insult to everone that died over real civil rights issues.
I'm personally self conscious and angry around Valentine's day because I'm a single, thirty-five year old guy with no romantic prospects, should I start a rally of fellow, undersexed losers to boycott the rest of the country for reminding us were lonely?

[Gorgo]

It's interesting that you have a low opinion of yourself and other people. Why should I have a high opinion of your opinion?

[Gorgo]

http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...abash_24_4.htm On atheism as a civil rights issue. Maybe being single is a civil rights issue as well. If singles are treated as second class citizens, it probably is.

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Vic said: Don't be afraid to say Merry Christmas, its your right I say: Don't be offended when I exercise my right to free speech, and tell you to FUCK OFF after saying it..

Osborn never goes over the line, nope, never seen it. :rolleyes:

[Osborn F Enready]

Oberon, can't you see that the TOPIC is FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

I am not disputing I may have violated an etiquette standard, I am not infallible. I was clearly making a point that:

A.) While I agree with Vichio, he has the right to say Merry Christmas, I too have just as much right to reply back in a way I DEEM FIT, regardless of belief.

B.) The way the whole argument was framed is that Christians are being persecuted "once again". Well yes, they are, and it is partly because some push it on others, EVEN if they know their beliefs are contrary.

C.) Freedom of speech is often embraced when speaking, and shunned when listening. If you expect the freedom to speak, why shouldn't others. If someone such as Vic is tired of hearing people complain about his beliefs on Christmas, maybe he should keep his beliefs to himself.


Vic said:
It's a sad sad day in America when Christmas is banned in a school, school play or a Christmas Tree is renamed.

I say: I couldn't agree more. My family wasn't particularly religious, but we celebrated Christmas. I loved it as a child. I see nothing wrong with it. I do however find it hard to believe that Christians are so insulted by the many "privlidges" that were traditionally accepted, being questioned or openly disagreed with. I have as much right to express belief as anyone else, religious or not. It is simply a fact that people disagree on some things, so be it.

Lets reflect back on the old saying, "treat others, as you wish to be treated by them".

I treat people with respect, and I get it back 9 out of 10 times. That 1 time occasionally happens to us all. If someone says Merry Christmas to me, I don't get offended, but I do in my mind play it off as yea, whatever, happy holidays to you to, I still say "thank-you, and have a happy holiday." I respect their right to believe, I just take issue with the "assumption" that I practice Christmas, and not "Consumer Day" or "Festivus".

It is about where the line is drawn. Decorum and rights are two different things altogether, as is religion and morals. People often confuse the two.

You want it to be written somewhere that all people should celebrate a religious holiday a certain way, and you should not receive any flack for openly expressing yourself. I say you already have the right to express yourself, you just also have the responsibility of your words, and have to expect to be challenged if you are "openly expressing yourself" within earshot of another person. You have the right to practice any holiday you want, almost any way you want, but you cannot force me to either accept it for myself, or agree with it in any way. It all goes both ways. You allow one religion a privlidge, they all are entitled. You disclude one, you disclude them ALL. In order to guarantee the Fed "endorses" no religion, equality in the eyes of the law is the only way to INSURE this is practiced.

[kharmajunkie]

Quote by: Gorgo http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...abash_24_4.htm On atheism as a civil rights issue. Maybe being single is a civil rights issue as well. If singles are treated as second class citizens, it probably is.

I'm sorry you don't pick up on exageration and sarcasm then; I think both sides should have
some balance is the only point I'm trying to make. Apparently you and the Jesus freaks don't have that many differences after all since you seem to share their closeminded attitude towards your fellow citizen's rights.

[tusaki]

I believe Christmas has grown to become more of a cultural phenomena than a religious feast. I'm not a christian, but I do enjoy Christmas. Just as children in school can enjoy a christmas tree or singing about rudolf the red nose reindeer without them being forced to read the bible. In my mind I dont connect it to any religion at all, it is just a feast with family and friends... and a tree with lights in it. Basically it's an excuse to socialize. I think I would have to look very hard to find people who are offended if anyone wishes them a merry christmas. I mean... if someone wishes me a happy chinese new year, or a happy ramadan, why should I be offended?

Christmas belongs in our culture, regardless of which religion it is based upon. Therefore it is good to sponsor christmas trees for schools and play christmas songs on the radio. Just try to enjoy the time of the year.