Don't be afraid to say Merry Christmas, its your right

[Lou Minotti]

Here in TN, the Local TV news stations promote nativity scenes at local churches every year (among other church-related activites. This issue is overblown. Just ignore the whiny liberals and they'll go away...At least you aren't being fed to lions. (that was a joke, before anyone reports me).

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Seperation of Church and State means that Congress cannot establish a Church of America. Thats the only reason its there. Not to keep Schools from having Christmas Trees... Sometimes I wonder if this country is worth serving when this sort of thinking Gorgo pushes is taken seriously.

I have no problem with schools having Christmas trees, actually. The Christmas tree is not all that theistic. I might have a problem with a manger scene, if they were unwilling, or reluctant to do a menorah, UU chalice, Budda...etc etc etc.

I think we start developing a Christian Church of America mentality if schools only allow representation of one faith. Of course we get into a problem here because there are some really whacked out faiths out there, then we put the state into the position of deciding which is a valid faith, which is not. We do that to a certain extent, especially tax time... but the less we do it, the better. That's why I really feel it's best if we avoid such things. But, pharaphrasing Mr. Vicchio, if we're willing to turn town square into happy Chrikwanhaunbuddamithrazeusdontknoweatmyshorts Land, it's fine with me as long as I don't have to pay for it, tax-wise. Hell, make it into a park with attractions like "ride the roller coaster to Valhalla" and make the public pay big bucks. Maybe government might pay for itself by feeding off the faithful and the fanatical. Of course I will be paying for the space they put it in, and the necessary pork to put it there, but no matter what they put there I'd help pay for that. There have been far stupider ideas.

[bullshitdetector]

Quote by: Gorgo Are you coming on to me?

LMAO! I hope you have had enough dating experience to know better than that! I don't think you're his type!

[Mr.Vicchio]

90% of Americans celebrate Christmas to pne extent or another. To not allow any form of Christmas display in the Public Arena be it Schools or city hall is Tyrrany of the Minority.

[Gorgo]

That's the reason we have a Constitution, 'v'. So that the majority doesn't run over minorities.

You have a church on every corner of this country. Put your mangers on your church lawns. If Congress and the military want to go to church, let them take up a collection like everyone else.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas to pne extent or another. To not allow any form of Christmas display in the Public Arena be it Schools or city hall is Tyrrany of the Minority.

Tyranny of the minority? Boy, I'm glad I'm not a proud republican like you. I'd be downright depressed if I was forced to realize that my party has NO control over ANYTHING, even though they have the Senate, the House, and the White House.

Seriously, please explain how a minority can have any tyrannical power of any kind if there is a larger power there to control them? Tyranny of the "reasonable" perhaps, but of the minority? I think a lot of Republicans just don't agree with you Vic, that's all.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas to pne extent or another. To not allow any form of Christmas display in the Public Arena be it Schools or city hall is Tyrrany of the Minority.

How many of those celebrate real christmas as opposed to commercial christmas?

[Gorgo]

What is a real Christmas as opposed to a commercial Christmas?

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas to pne extent or another. To not allow any form of Christmas display in the Public Arena be it Schools or city hall is Tyrrany of the Minority.

I believe in neither the tyranny of the minority or the majority and, certainly, "no establishment" should mean we don't decide a state religion by either. That's why either all or none are the best approaches. If it were "all" I certainly wouldn't suggest "equal time," but equally certainly that shouldn't be turned into a microscopic Star of David vs a 100 foot cross either, for example.

That's why "none" is just easier. "None" is neither tyranny of the minority or the majority. It's to protect both. Sad to say it eliminates a lot of what gives color, life and meaning to our culture, that's true, but it also eliminates a lot of evil.

[Gorgo]

Sorry, but you can have color meaning and life without religion. Religion adds nothing. It only detracts from life.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Gorgo Sorry, but you can have color meaning and life without religion. Religion adds nothing. It only detracts from life.

Of course you can. Perhaps I should rephrase? I feel whenever you are pursuing a faith, or non-faith, with the best of intentions, compassion and as pure of "heart" (mind) as possible, THAT adds color, meaning and life. Such was the nature of Don Quixote. A less theistic view would be when we go out to battle certain windmills sometimes we discover something we weren't looking for... post it note, cures... Of course occasionally we discover atomic bombs as well.

For instance, going back to religion, although I am not Catholic and never will be; I have met those who through application of their faith (and lack of faith) who have done great things... and those who destroy themselves and those around them. I admit I could say the same about any faith or lack of. It's a matter of how you use it and how you let it use you.

I think as humans we tend to focus on specific tenets, rules and concepts too much and where we allow them to take us too little. It's like staring at the speedometer to make sure you're going 15 in a school zone to the point you don't see the little girl and or hear the loud whistle of the crossing guard.

[Gorgo]

Well said. Although, I think people create their religions according to how they want to use them rather than the other way around.

Certainly religious and non-religious people do good things, I don't mean that. I just mean that delusions like god(s) don't add anything. They get in the way. Better to lose those delusions. Those, like me, who have lost the need for delusions of god(s) do not necessarily lose all their delusions, though.

However, when other delusions exist, people recognize them as human folly. They don't celebrate them the way that they do religion. We are expected to "respect" religion. Religion is mental error. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Gorgo Well said. Although, I think people create their religions according to how they want to use them rather than the other way around. Certainly religious and non-religious people do good things, I don't mean that. I just mean that delusions like god(s) don't add anything. They get in the way. Better to lose those delusions. Those, like me, who have lost the need for delusions of god(s) do not necessarily lose all their delusions, though. However, when other delusions exist, people recognize them as human folly. They don't celebrate them the way that they do religion. We are expected to "respect" religion. Religion is mental error. Nothing more and nothing less.

When I speak of my own beliefs it's more like I'm using my imagination and what I sense out of history, the world around me, and the written word to concieve what I think is most likely. Therefore belief is a fluid, shifting concept with me. I am the man who built his house on the sand and everytime it washes away I learn more. I think we're all like that, I just think there are too many who refuse to recognize the surf and the nature of sand. It causes a lot of mental problems because they take their frustrations out on the rest of us. Refusing to accept the reality waves that crash again and again does that.

I think "delusion" enters the equation when you refuse to recognize the nature of sand, waves and what conflicts with your own perceptions, no matter what your beliefs or lack of belief. I do believe those who have none sometimes have a slight step up in the process as long as they are slightly more agnostic than athiestic. I have met many atheists who have their bolts screw down pretty tightly, but then there are a few to whom atheism is as dogmatic as fundamentalism is to others.

[Gorgo]

Most grown-up people don't really seem to believe in the supernatural. They do their laundry, they go to work. They don't expect much from god(s) except to "help" them do what they were going to do anyway. God's only job is to just do his mysterious will and to help those who help themselves. Which is basically nothing. Yes, those "good" things that happen by chance or effort are things that god does, and those "bad" things that happen by chance or effort are things that the devil does, or are explained by God's mysterious "will," but people still lock their doors and go to work and get sick and die.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Gorgo Most grown-up people don't really seem to believe in the supernatural. They do their laundry, they go to work. They don't expect much from god(s) except to "help" them do what they were going to do anyway. God's only job is to just do his mysterious will and to help those who help themselves. Which is basically nothing. Yes, those "good" things that happen by chance or effort are things that god does, and those "bad" things that happen by chance or effort are things that the devil does, or are explained by God's mysterious "will," but people still lock their doors and go to work and get sick and die.

I'm a theist with agnostic tendencies. That means I think there may be a God, or Gods, but I'm willing to admit... I don't know. No one really does. I don't believe in a Santa creator: one who watches us all the time and decides whose bad or good, or theologically correct. I think prayer is more a self push to go in a direction we wanted to go anyway. Can you imagine a creator who listens to all prayers? He/She/It would go quite insane. Of course, that's possible. Who says "God" is necessarily benevolent, sane or even gives a damn?

I view the Universe like a time piece. It was created to follow certain rules, work in a certain way. If you violate those rules enough you pay, unless you figure a way to be more creative... eventually. Gravity is one. If someone actually invents "anti-gravity" there's a reward for being creative, unfortunately in our society it usually goes to the person who steals or cheats them out of it. There are many other "rules." They could be rules or just scientific facts. But if someone who creates a timepiece, they don't get into the watch and make sure each part works right all the time and listen to the whining of the parts, or even lubricate it. Too many view God in this manner. Somehow I just can't imagine any being so superior being so stupidly incompetent as to have to baby sit their own creation, or allow "Satan" to screw it up so much or...

My favorite concept of a creator is, when I die, I discover this is only one reality/dimension and one step in an ongoing journey that all sentient lifeforms travel. Do I worship that, or any specific concept? No. Frankly any God/Creator who wishes to be worshipped I would get pretty far away from.

Who might the creator(s) be?

Aliens from a long extinct race.

Some power/being whatever that we don't understand yet and probably never will.

We may never know.

I often compare creation concepts to a group of very intelligent ants living on an island. One day a tidal wave wipes out half of their population. Some of the ants think it all happened because God was pissed about something. Some feel it was a naturally occuring event but there is something many might call God(s) out there. Some feel it can all be explained by science. I put myself between the last two categories. The point is we are too far away from the intial event, creation, to ever know for sure. Lately I lean pretty heavy towards Agnostic. But, hell, I could be wrong... I was... ONCE. (snicker) :)

[Mr.Vicchio]

I belive that Life on Earth is just a step, a cocoon.. if you will, to allow our souls to grow, and death is just coming out of that cocoon. Heaven isn't anyhting like what we mere mortals could imgaine, so I try not too. Hell is far worse then anything we could imagine so I avoid thinking of it as well.

God I believe, isn't impressed by Church rules and human rituals, Jesus said as much when he was here last, I think that being a good person (I.E. generous, honest, honorable, and courageous) is far more important then if you attended Church weekly and gave to the Church.

[Scribbler1]

Tell that to the Islamic terrorists. They seem to be under the impression THEIR god says it's cool to kill innocent people and they WILL shuffle off their "cocoon" and head on up to heaven.

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Tyranny of the minority? Boy, I'm glad I'm not a proud republican like you. I'd be downright depressed if I was forced to realize that my party has NO control over ANYTHING, even though they have the Senate, the House, and the White House. Seriously, please explain how a minority can have any tyrannical power of any kind if there is a larger power there to control them? Tyranny of the "reasonable" perhaps, but of the minority? I think a lot of Republicans just don't agree with you Vic, that's all.

You contradicted yourself Scribbler. Which is the minority in your argument?

[Scribbler1]

To put it another way, Mr. V implied the "minority" , in this case the liberals, are forcing Christmas celebrations from the schools and public buildings. My question was, if the anti-Christmas forces are the minority, how can they dictate to the MAJORITY what, where and HOW anything will be celebrated?

It strikes me as a completely fabricated attempt to label the "other side" as the grinches in this little play. I don't know WHO is messing with these decorations, etc. but I maintain no minmority will force the majority to abandon something THAT important to them.
Either there are conservatives AND liberals against public displays of this sort, thereby making them a majority, or the conservatives don't get as bent out of shape about it as Vicchio does.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Scribbler1 To put it another way, Mr. V implied the "minority" , in this case the liberals, are forcing Christmas celebrations from the schools and public buildings. My question was, if the anti-Christmas forces are the minority, how can they dictate to the MAJORITY what, where and HOW anything will be celebrated? It strikes me as a completely fabricated attempt to label the "other side" as the grinches in this little play. I don't know WHO is messing with these decorations, etc. but I maintain no minmority will force the majority to abandon something THAT important to them. Either there are conservatives AND liberals against public displays of this sort, thereby making them a majority, or the conservatives don't get as bent out of shape about it as Vicchio does.

The mainstream media gladly puts any small group who has a gripe on the camera and creates the impression that the small group is far larger than it is...And conservatives by nature do not protest or raise a big stink over what they consider "petty" issues.

I have noticed small changes in that attitude however...this Christmas season is a good example...across the country, people are becoming fed up with minorities who are willing to see Christmas removed from the public view and demonstrating that the minority will not rule the majority...with every victory over the vocal minority, the majority learns something...perhaps in a year or two...or three, the voice that small angry and very vocal minority will be rendered completely irrelavent...