Flag Burning

[Gorgo]

Support the troops to do what? To illegally attack other countries and murder and maim and imprison the inhabitants? Why?

[bullshitdetector]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Especially when said flags turn into torn, washed out rags and are still left on the antenna of the SUV or whatever. It's amazing how much people say they love the flag but how little respect they have for it. (edit) Flag Etiquette .

That is true, I notice how local municipalities hardly ever take the flag down and put it back up on a daily basis because they're too damned lazy to bother, which is another form of disrespect. I think flag burning is disrespectful, I get the same emotions as some where if I see someone burn or deface it I want to punch their face, but I digress because it is a form of free speech. I simply look at those who do it as jackasses who openly want the world to know they are jackasses and by doing so removes all the mystery of what they're all about.

I just turn my back on them and consider the source.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Iluvatar So, what do you think? Flag burning has been called freedom of expression, and it's been called disrespectful hate-filled idiocy. Should it be outlawed?

The National Flag is not yet another banner. Along with the National Anthem these 2 national symbols should be UN-touched under any conditions or circumstances.

People - mostly unknown to us today - sacrificed their life for us, paying their "ultimate price" as the result. With the National Flag in their hands, they were going through battle fields around the globe us to feel free today, not to mention to talk or write about them (as it is taking place within this thread).

Instead of paying a special tribute to those people's heroic efforts, this thread has become a subject on alleged "expression of a free speech".
If someone wants to burn something - as an expression of his/her views - it would not be a "bad idea" that person to burn itself. Less idiots on planet Earth.

It applies to the National Anthem. The National Anthem is not yet another song.
If somone wants to be noticed (in search for a "fame" ??? ) than he/she should rather seek a sort of "musical contest", instead. The National Anthem serves for a comletely different purposes, indeed.

One may ask, "what is the National Flag and the National Anthem" all about ?
It is all about Patrotism, and it is not a subject of any (so-called) "debate".

Whatever is left up for a debate : your minds, guys.
How your minds have been created or shaped ?
That is the real issue, and it may concern your family, parents (or guardians), values you have been taught, your upbringing, ect. All those values speak for yourselves, guys.

If a person does not respect the values of the Home, how that person may even understand the Home (itself) , not to mention to defend that Home ?

[Starboy]

It is all clear to me now. The goal is to get people to confuse a symbol with the actual thing. That way people can be tricked into thinking that our government cares about us because it protects the symbol while it is screwing us.

Starboy

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I've always felt that way myself. Even as kids we were taught to respect and revere the flag. But when my emotions say "punch the bastard in the face" as he burns a flag, reality sets in and my intellect says he has that right to and that settles it. As much as I respect the flag I can not allow it to be held in higher regard than the people it represents.

There are many times I have imagined punching someone for the a-hole things they have done but, in reality, it proves... what? That you're a better puncher? If we look at who has thrown the most non-ring fights in history we find... Nazis, Klan members, Gulag guards... So does that prove they are on the right side, and we are wrong? Should those who resisted have stopped because that punch proved superiority?

I know, it's slightly off topic, but such violence says more about those who commit it than those who receive the blow.

I have always felt that flag burning, no matter how much I may agree with why the flag was burned, is a pointless and self-defeating act. Those who oppose flag burning AND the flag burner's opinions should probably just sit back and smile while they destroy the point they are trying to make. Especially with our flag, because there is so much it's suppose to stand for that the burner is, essentially, pissing in the wind each time he lights one up.

Yet the true traitor, in my opinion, is neither the flag burner or the emotion filled person who commits assault. It is those who elevate a symbol to something to be worshipped and protected more than the very ideals and concepts the flag represents. In reality the flag is a piece of cloth. If you worship that instead of honoring what it stands for then you have turned the flag is a piece of...

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Starboy It is all clear to me now. The goal is to get people to confuse a symbol with the actual thing. That way people can be tricked into thinking that our government cares about us because it protects the symbol while it is screwing us. Starboy

A person should recognize "what is a government's business" and "what is that person's business".
A government is not going to teach people the basics of life, its positive values, "pluses" and "minuses". That task relies on parent's , (guardian) families' friends', ect. shoulders, along with that person's everyday-participation. I do not think that a government even cares that.
Despite that it is yet another a sub-topic, it carries very important fundaments for this thread's main subject, and I think it could be extended to cover that issue as well.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Ken Carman Yet the true traitor, in my opinion, is neither the flag burner or the emotion filled person who commits assault. It is those who elevate a symbol to something to be worshipped and protected more than the very ideals and concepts the flag represents. In reality the flag is a piece of cloth. If you worship that instead of honoring what it stands for then you have turned the flag is a piece of...

I've always said the same thing. These people are false patriots and rely on emotions to gain and keep control of the sheep.

Try this sometime. When you are in a group (a bar is the best place) and some nitwit says people should be jailed for burning the flag and we need a constitutional amendment protecting the flag, do one of these and see the reaction:

Ask them how many people burn the flag each year (my understanding is that it's about 6 or so, or it was pre Iraq anyway) and do we need a CA to stop this handful of people.

Ask if they think the flag should have more protection than the people it represents? Then remind them the flag burners who would be affected by the CA are AMERICAN.

State that China has a law punishing its citizens for defacing the Chinese flag and should we have the same government as THEM?

I've asked these questions and found the answers, shall we say, interesting.

[Thylo]

if you wanna burn the flag, wrap ourelf in it first.
they an do it, but they should be prepared to have their asses kicked.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Thylo ...but they should be prepared to have their asses kicked.

Kicked for what?

Starboy

[Suburbanite]

For hurting his feelings.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Suburbanite For hurting his feelings.

It is just a peice of cloth. Would it bother him if I burned a bible? How about a Koran? How about the constitution? What about my credit card bill? (Wouldn't it be great if burning the bill destroyed the balance.) What should bother him is if I started a riot and we all started buring and looting homes and businesses. That would indeed be hurting people. People need to learn the difference between a symbol and what it actually stands for. The symbol is nothing. If you are more concerned for the symbol than what it stands for then you are screwed up.

Starboy

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Thylo if you wanna burn the flag, wrap ourelf in it first. they an do it, but they should be prepared to have their asses kicked.

An honest feeling. However, if you get your OWN ass kicked while enforcing a nonexistent law you will have nobody to complain to.
Attacking people who are not breaking the law makes you a common criminal and not a patriot. It's as simple as that.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Starboy It is just a peice of cloth. Would it bother him if I burned a bible? How about a Koran? How about the constitution? What about my credit card bill? (Wouldn't it be great if burning the bill destroyed the balance.) Starboy

Interesting point. Burning the bill changes nothing of course. I have also noticed that when a flag is burnt the country does not get shot from a cannon right into the fires of hell either. These good and pure patriots should remember burning a flag is only a big deal if they MAKE it one. If nobody pays any attention to a flag burner what is accomplished then?

[Iluvatar]

Well, to those supporters of burning's immorality/illegality, aren't you glad we live in such a great country? We have so many freedoms! Can you believe those people, who try to exercise them? [end sarcasm]

It's a simply chain of logic here:
-This is a great nation
-It's great because of our freedoms
-You hate flag burning as it disrespects that great nation
-If we banned flag-burning, we would lose our freedoms
-This would no longer be such a great nation
-There'd be no cause to hat flag-burners.

The whole reason we're great is because we CAN voice our opinions by speaking out, and by doing things like burning flags. I mean, for god sakes, we're on a debate board! We can freely criticize this country, and it's administration. That's why it's a great nation.

I would suggest that those who so bravely defended our country take a closer look at what they defended.

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: Iluvatar Well, to those supporters of burning's immorality/illegality, aren't you glad we live in such a great country? We have so many freedoms! Can you believe those people, who try to exercise them? [end sarcasm] It's a simply chain of logic here: -This is a great nation -It's great because of our freedoms -You hate flag burning as it disrespects that great nation -If we banned flag-burning, we would lose our freedoms -This would no longer be such a great nation -There'd be no cause to hat flag-burners. The whole reason we're great is because we CAN voice our opinions by speaking out, and by doing things like burning flags. I mean, for god sakes, we're on a debate board! We can freely criticize this country, and it's administration. That's why it's a great nation. I would suggest that those who so bravely defended our country take a closer look at what they defended.

There is a lot of logic on the flag issue in your post. On the subject of criticizing our administration and our country, I agree we should be able to, and we should be able to defend it as well. When defiling this country and our administration we should look just as close to what we are defiling as those who defend it should. One of the things that makes this country great is the assumption of innocence until proven guilty. Our great nation and our administrations deserves the same benefit of the doubt.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid There is a lot of logic on the flag issue in your post. On the subject of criticizing our administration and our country, I agree we should be able to, and we should be able to defend it as well. When defiling this country and our administration we should look just as close to what we are defiling as those who defend it should. One of the things that makes this country great is the assumption of innocence until proven guilty. Our great nation and our administrations deserves the same benefit of the doubt.

I partly agree in that we have as much right to support and respect our flag as those who would defile it, but then it gets a bit complicated.
How can you defend the flag without infringing on the protester's right to burn it? As Thylo suggested, you could kick their ass or you could make it illegal. The former is assault and is ALWAYS illegal and the latter is removing a person's rights.

As for the country and leaders getting the benefit of the doubt, I say they already and always do, as evidenced by the microscopic minority of Americans who actually burn the flag.

[OberonDOtherseid]

I wasn't very clear on that Scribbler, I meant that remark to be directed at defending our country and our administration, not the flag itself. But, I don't think the microscopic minority of flag burners are indicators of a majority default to giving the administration and our country the benefit of the doubt. The critical left is a large percentage of our populace who nearly if not always err on the side of vilifying either or both.

[Scribbler1]

And as they should. I find the thought of an entire populace in lock-step with ANY administration a terrifying scenario.
If the "loyal opposition" is wrong 99 out of 100 times, I can live with that as long as they are right ONCE.

[OberonDOtherseid]

Its a good thing people do not incorporate that type of thinking into enforcing laws, wait a minute, that is exactly what the critical left rants that the administration and the military is doing!! That's funny!

[Scribbler1]

Nice twisting of the point, but I still maintain we must have people who disagree with our leaders as without dissent we could be living under a dictator and never know the difference.

And just to clarify, the people opposed to the administration do NOT make laws so your comparison is invalid. As for Iraq, while it may not be 99 wrong to 1 right, the administration and the military are FAR from 100 or even 50% right.
Or maybe it only SEEMS like 100% right as people are getting used to the twice daily news reports of soldiers and civilians being blown up in Iraq.