Fireing teachers under NCLB

[m5lange1]

Well it has finally happened in my town.

A ghetto school that has a hard core population has been on the "warning" list for its final year and the entire staff is being fired.

And i am sure that in another 4 years another whole staff will be fired.

No excuse that turency is rampant. No excuse that these teachers have put in tons of extra hours and work. No excuse that many of these parents are drug/alchahol addicted and take no responsiblity or get involved in any way with their child's education.

ALL of the accountability is on these teachers so they are being fired. Staff with everywhere from 1 to 30 years experience and seniority.

This is not the same as closing a store in an area where business is poor. This is a NECESSARY service that must be maintained. Someone has to keep the store open. Someone has to sell the air conditioners in Fairbanks Alaska.

Question 1. How long before NO professional will accept a job in ghetto/barrio/low-income schools?

Question 2. PLEASE SOMEONE ANSWER THIS. IT IS DODGED BY THE ANTI-EDUCATION CROWD LIKE A FLYING TURD.
Should we not demand the same accountablitiy in other necessary service professions that we do our teachers?

Meaning
A. Police be accountable for the crime on their beat. Fire those who cannot keep crime in their area to no more than the national average.


B. Soldiers be accountable and fired if they cannot keep the peace in their assigned areas to a global average.

C. POLITICIANS, should be fired if they:
1. cannot keep the budget balanced (no excuses just accountability just like teachers).
2. cannot keep our nation safe (no excuses just accountability just like teachers).
3. cannot keep unemployment down (no excuses just accountability just like teachers).
4. cannot keep the value of the dollar on the world market (no excuses just accountability just like teachers).

Yes it is unreasonable. Who would ever police our cities? Who would go to war and defend our country? Who would ever be able to maintain public office?

Well............
Who will ever teach our children?

[Suburbanite]

You can't keep a failing school open because they had good intentions. A for effort doesn't exist in the real world.

[Osborn F Enready]

Which is exactly why we should not be supporting a Federal Public Schooling effort with management they have exhibited in the past.

I feel for the teachers, though they had to half expect it knowing the current system. I feel for the kids, because they are born to irresponsible parents who were probably raised much the same way, or not raised I should say.

The point is this though....the Federal Government is not a babysitter, and it should not be in the education business either, as its examples plainly show.

At best, this should possibly be a State level issue, or possibly city level. It is not the mass populations job to raise the children of crackheads, thieves, stick-up men or prostitutes. This is welfare creating more of a problem out of a problem, and that is why it has reached the level it is at now.

I would expect an answer from local groups to discuss educational opprotunities for those children who WANT to learn, and make known charities aware of the situation as well as possibly starting a fund-raiser. There is no free ride though, that is why we are where we are. People became DEPENDENT on the free ride.

[Suburbanite]

The only thing worse than the public education system si the private one. Many of them underpay teachers, offer minimally better education if better at all, and drain everyone's pockets. Removing public education has got to be one of the dumbest ideas that has been proposed to fix the education system.

[Osborn F Enready]

That a nice opinion, any facts to bring with that?

How do inefficient private shools stay in business, since people don't make it a habit to pay for service they aren't satisfied with?

How do EVERYONES pockets get drained, if only those who participate are paying?

Why would teachers leave a fixed income ability at a public scool to go to a private school with "less" income potential?

How would you fix the educational system, and be less Unconstitutional than the system in place now?

[m5lange1]

The private schools are the SAME teachers. They are schooled at the SAME universities, they all apply for work. Some get hired to a private school some to a public school.

For the love of all, I work in BOTH public AND private schools.
THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE they have the SAME carriculum....

WAKE UP WORLD!!!!

The only difference is that the REAL hardcore population has not yet been taken on by the private sector.

And before you start listing the same old ten or eleven cases where private schools have worked in poor areas PLEASE go back and read the real stats on these schools.

The parents that enrolled their children in these schools are parents who get involved. That is why they took the initiative to put their children there. The real hard cases have not yet been taken. They keep getting shuffled off into other publc schools.

So Suburbanite says we HAVE to close failing schools?
OK Fine. The building closes. The children do NOT dissappear.

What we I am talking about here is NOT closing schools.
I am talking about FIREING the staff because they took on a hard job!!!!!!
The staff is NOT the problem....the staff is the scapegoat.

PLEASE stop dodging the problem.
Blaming teachers is convenient.
It takes the burdon off the students Nope, not their fault..
It takes the burdon off the parents Nope not their fault.
It takes the burdon off of society Nope not their fault
LETS FIRE THE TEACHERS.... YEA!
Surely it is odd that all of the bad teachers teach in ghettos and barrios and poor economic areas. I wonder how that happened that all of the bad teachers that cannot seem to fix their schools ended up in those areas?

Does anyone REALLY believe this?

THEN answer my question instead of being cold and callous educational barstool quarterbacks.....

Suburbanite You can't keep a failing school open because they had good intentions. A for effort doesn't exist in the real world.

I will post it again but make it simpler......... Lets just take police as an example,,,,,

Why not hold them to the same accountablitiy as teachers?
To use suburbanite's quote

You can't keep a failing (presinct) open because they had good intentions. A for effort dosen't exist in the real world.

If fireing experienced teachers (who were willing to take on an extremely difficult task) is the answer in ghetto schools then why is fireing experienced police not the answer if they are unable to keep crime to a national average in the same district?

I think that we sould reward people willing to take on such monumental tasks, not fire them when they cannot do the impossible.

Suburbanite I would like your answer directly...
Why are you willing to "understand" what the policeman faces and cut him some slack but hold to hard line accountability with no excuses for the teacher?

Or do you think we should fire the policemen too?

[Suburbanite]

I hate the police, fire them sure.

[Scribbler1]

Teachers have become the whipping boy for a lazy society, and society will never blame itself!
They don't make much money but we expect them to do OUR jobs taking care of the little darlings. They can't strike over this because it will make them look bad. In fact, ANYTHING they do makes them look bad.
If some kid walks in with a contact high he got at home it will be the teacher's fault he/she couldn't "reach" him at the same time he/she is supposed to be "reaching" an additional 40 kids.
Teachers have to teach "right and wrong" and other essentials a previous generation's parents did withought a thought.

Teachers are the victims of a self-centered and lazy society bereft of brains, with no sense of responsibility to anyone other than themselves.

[Osborn F Enready]

Hey M5, I am not trying to insult or step around the subject, I just see the problem stemming from something different, that pre-dates the existance of that school to begin with.

I understand why you are pissed about the teachers being fired, I just am not suprised at it happening, as it is becoming the status QUO.

I too lost my job, and am currently unemployed AGAIN, this time due to layoff.

I undertstand the ethics of why you feel the rage over the hypocrisy of what is happening, I really do.

But whose fault is it?

Is there an easy person, entity, body or thing to blame?

I live in Northwest Ohio and all of our local schools are running in the red, closing electives, and suffering great damage due to current educational system structure, funding, and design.

I believe the teachers are well meaning, and doing all they can.

BUT BLAME WHERE THE BLAME IS DUE.

People do not react to violations of their rights, their ethics, their morals or their concept of American ideology any more than the situation of what you speak. This is just another headline, another day, another group of people pissed at the system, and the lack of ability to change it, or effect it.

Is the local news covering it, the national news? Why, why not?

It's happening all across the country.

Anyone out there have a public educational system working locally that is thriving right now with electives, great scores in the new federal guidelines, and more money than needed to run in the black? PLEASE SPEAK UP, we would like to know if your there! I don't know of any around my area in Ohio.

[m5lange1]

LOL

Suburbanite I hate the police, fire them sure.

M5 raises a white flag on that one. Best answer you could have given.

Scribbler1 Teachers have become the whipping boy for a lazy society, and society will never blame itself!

Amen to that brother

Osborne But whose fault is it? Is there an easy person, entity, body or thing to blame?

No there is not. It is a shared fault but NOT a shared blame.
Putting all of the accountablity on one entity or body of people simply enables the others at fault to coast and continue to be part of the problem.

Im calmer now. Thanks for listening :)

[Suburbanite]

Look, I agree that teachers are not the only people to blame. But I do think having extremely strict standards on them is one of dozens of things that need to be done to restore education. Family values plays a role, though Family isn't the issue as much as society. Good intentioned parents can still fail in an environment that does not condone higher-learning. The curriculum is to blame. The Bureaucracy is to blame. But teachers are to blame as well. I think if the job was more selective and higher paid then the amount of teachers trying to become teachers would increase, shit teachers should be fired based on reviews, shit schools should have new administration.

I actually know quite a bit about the subject, though it might seem my replies are cliché. I really have put a lot of effort into studying and researching the problems.

The problem that privatizing school would solve is curriculum issues. It would not increase any demand or output in education. Shitty educations would be cheap, good educations expensive, and to a larger degree than now. Families would not all research the schools based on standards but costs, and the next thing you know a chain of Bob’s Learning Hole Academies will be popping up all over the country and poor people will be taking advantage of it. This will also completely destroy the standards of entry into college. In shitty private schools there will be minimal offers of AP classes, honors programs, magnet programs, or any other free incentives children can aspire to. So only those sending their children to expensive schools will be able to get their kids into college, and most people wouldn’t be able to afford this, causing a bigger separation between rich and poor. Next, teacher salaries would be reduced to non-union crap jobs and only expensive schools will be employing top teachers. Equipment for children in poor schools will be poor, too. The public high school I went to set up a media academy that costs millions because of a grant. Private shitty schools wont be spending this money when they don’t have to, and they wont be getting grants like this from private companies, those grants, if any at all, will go to better schools. For driving school I had friends who paid next to nothing to go to some crappy driving school called Bob’s something or other. They weren’t taught how to drive well, but they got their license. It will be the same for education centers.
Those problems don’t even touch on the socializing problems within private schools.

[m5lange1]

I have a very unique perspective being a speech pahtologist that wokrs in many schools both private and public. I have also worked in many cities.

My current posiition serves private, public, affluent and low income area schools.

I am telling you the carriculum differences are minute. In fact they very more from school to school than from private to public school.
The difference is that, as it stands now with private schools, charter schools and vouchers, the dregs of the dregs are still being shuffeled into the public schools and it shows.

Actually I hope education DOES go all private in my lifetime. I want to see the public reaction when the TURE hardcore population no longer has a public school dumping ground.
One of three things will come to pass.
1. They will start closing private schools and continue firing the same people only from a different employer.
2. The problem will go away because politicians and the media will no longer demand accountablitiy because the public is no longer paying for it.
3. Competitive accountablity (as in business) will be too bad if your area is too small to support competition in schools, or your area too poor to draws in any interest.
THAT IS the poor area schools will still fail (probably more so since all the pressure will be removed) but no one will care so it will not be news.
(All those poor kiddies will be left behind but it won't be in our face anymore).


Naturally teachers should be accountable. But no more than any other professional.

And for some reason (I am sure it is the scapegoating) none of the conditions are addressed when they are taken to account.

NO ONE seems to want to allow for conditions.

It is beyond me why people fall back on the same old rehtoric
"Well they have tro be held accountable" without giving them the same considerations we give other professions.

Just like this post. No one wants to seriously address the comparrisons...

Cops don't keep crime down in Watts LA as well as they do in Pleasanttown Iowa. We understand and make allowances for a more difficult job.

As I did above I could make these comparisons for soldiers in Faluja (sorry about the spelling) not keeping the peace as well as those in other areas of Iraq.

Or politicians not keeping a budget balanced in more difficult economic times.

Or Hospitals that cannot get patients out of their Cancer wards as quickly as the maternity wards.

It is one thing to sit around and verbally blame tachers and allow nothing for conditions, but once we start fireing them it becomes more serious.

It is a rediculous and harmful action that will not solve the problem, it just costs someone to loose their job unfairly.

I KNOW no one out there will address this but I am sure none of you who read this really believe all the low income area populations just happen to keep getting the inadequate teachers.

I KNOW no one out there will address this but could the staff of a good scoring school be taken to that failing school and fix it?
I actually suggested this at a district meeting once. I really wish you could have seen the looks on the faces of the teachers from the affluent schools.
It sure as hell was not confidence or a "bring it on" attitude I can tell you.

MY CHALLLANGE (funny answers accepted but serious ones would be appriciated.

SO
Is a policeman who is willing to take a job in inner city Detroit
a). The kind of person we need and admire.
b). Someone who should be fired in 4 years if he cannot get the crime in his precinct to the national average.
c.) Someone who sholuld hold off until the private sector takes over policing the area because the job will be easier to do then.
d). A damned fool who should know better than to take the job.

(if you answer d please tell me what you think we should do about policing the target area)

Is a teacher who is willing to take a job in inner city Detroit
a). The kind of person we need and admire.
b). Someone who should be fired in 4 years if he cannot get the test scores in his school to the national average.
c.) Someone who sholuld hold off until the private sector takes over the school because the job will be easier to do then.
d). A damned fool who should know better than to take the job.

(if you answer d please tell me what you think we should do about educating the target population).

[Scribbler1]

Originally posted by Suburbanite, Look, I agree that teachers are not the only people to blame. But I do think having extremely strict standards on them is one of dozens of things that need to be done to restore education. Family values plays a role, though Family isn't the issue as much as society. Good intentioned parents can still fail in an environment that does not condone higher-learning.

How can you insist on strict teacher standards when you have no control over the raw material a teacher must work with? I can give you a hammer, an nail and a board and tell you to bang the nail into it. Easy enough, but if the nail is bent or the board rotten then your job is near impossible.
A teacher must reasonably expect the children to be TEACHABLE for him to do his job. If the kid is starved, ignored at home or abused that kid is not going to learn as well as a "normal" child, and this is in no way the fault of the teacher and no teacher evealuation I'm aware of takes that into account.
And family IS an issue, moreso than society. Society, for a child is who his friends are or what goes on in front of his house. Family is where he learns how to tie his shoes, how to wash his hands or spell his name (long before he enters school). It's where Mom and Pop teach the kid right from wrong and what is acceptable behavior.

The curriculum is to blame. The Bureaucracy is to blame. But teachers are to blame as well. I think if the job was more selective and higher paid then the amount of teachers trying to become teachers would increase, shit teachers should be fired based on reviews, shit schools should have new administration.

Of course, almost everything can be assigned blame for this situation, but teachers are a LOT lower on the list than people should think. Sure, there are bad teachers but with the rotten schools, lousy parents and moronic, "feel good" curriculim, you can't really TELL the bad from the good teachers.
As for teachers being fired on the strength of a review, I am completely against that as long as the current review criteria are in place. There is a big stink here in Delaware about "teacher accountability" these days and the reviews are all based on test scores. In other words, if Ward Cleaver pounds on the Beav a little too much because work didn't go well and the kid shows up punchy and can't focus to learn, his test scores will be crap. Whose fault is that then?

[Osborn F Enready]

Lots of good debate on the topic so far, but in my opinion, I believe M5 is basing how "things are all over" based on her local situation, and experience. I know having lived in this part of Ohio my whole life, knowing people in private and public schools, there is quite a difference in curriculum here.

AS far as the dire effects of privatization, yes, it has some downfalls, but they could easily be corrected by the State or city government, and it would be much more ACCESSIBLE for change at a local level as opposed to a FEDERAL level. Communities, city, parishes, counties, could easily design their own privatized system, to accomodate the locals NEEDS, and if the town or city passed decided it needed funding other than that, they could propose a tax bill on those with children, in the local COMMUNITY, those without kids would be excluded, since they have no reason to pay for other peoples kids unless THEY FELT CHARITABLE.

This is all about being fair to everyone, not just the poor.

[m5lange1]

Scribbler... I canot tell you how good it makes me feel to see someone out there who is actually willing to see the problem as it is. If more people would see this and stop scapegoating we reallly might make some headway.

Osborne,

If "this is all about being fair to everyone, not just the poor" I wouuld like it to stay focused on WHO we are talking about here. NOT the poor, NOR the taxpayers.

It is the teachers who are losing their jobs because they are taking on a monumentally difficult task.
THAT is who we are talking about being fair to.
I realize that "taxpayers" seem to always manage to get into this with the "but what about me?" thing, but
we are not talking about WHO is PAYING for anything here. That topic can be found on nearly every thread in this forum.

We are talking about taking professionals undertaking a nearly impossible task and firing them if they do not meet the same criteria as those in less challanging situations.

We are talking about fairness to people in an honorable profession.

We are talking about a difficult educational problem that is NOT being solved by firing those trying to fix it.

We are talking about a job that has a decreasing number of incomming candidates and eliminating those already in the profession.

We are talking about a profession where we desire to acquire good qualified people and we offer the reward of blame, poor pay, and finally termination if they take on the toughest (hardest to fill) positions.

Osborne ....in my opinion, I believe M5 is basing how "things are all over" based on her local situation, and experience. I know having lived in this part of Ohio my whole life, knowing people in private and public schools, there is quite a difference in curriculum here.

With all due respect Osborn it appears to me that you are doing more localized observing than I am.
My current location is not the only locale where I have been a multi-school speech pathologist. I have been in the profession over 30 years. You have, by your own admisiion, lived iin the same area for your whole life and are implying that there is a carriculum difference in your area's private schools that could make a difference.

NOTE: Please do ont get sidtracked on who pays for it. Private/public, tax, charity, donation, mana from heaven....... Our point here is solving the problem not who is footing the bill.

Lets globalize then Osborne..

1. Failing schools are evident all over the nation. Nealy ALL of them are inner city or poor rural areas. This is global. So are you suggesting that it just happens that these poor area schools have carriculum deficits that are not present in the succeeding schools all over the nation?

2. If there is a carriculum out there that is working on these failing populations you, and your local private schools, could become VERY wealthy training and selling this information to public schools all over the country. Surely you know these people desperately WANT to improve these scores.
Even if you are one of those that believe only the lazy and apathetic work in poor schools you must know they are trying like hell to keep their jobs.

3. This one is very important and cuts to the chase. Here are my non-localized specifics as to the problems.
1. Higher drug/alchahol addiction in target area scools among parents and students. Resulting in lack of participation, homework follow-through, parent involvment etc.
2. Higher absenteeism/truency in the poor areas.
3. Higher drop out (and anticipated drop out) rates in the students.
4. Cultural distain for the education process.
5. Enablemennt of the lazy and slothful both in families and students to shed their own responsibilites and blame the teaching staff.
6. Higher crime in both the neighborhoods and in the schools themselves.

These are but a few and can be verified with any demographics study for any city with a population of over 500,000 and in most smaller cities as well. NOT local observations.

NOW... in the interest of fair debate... please specify some of the carriculum differences in your local private schools that will aleviate these global problems.
Please do not be general and say "local (whoever) can better tailor their needs to their own population". They have that leeway in the public schools too.
Be specific.... WHAT carriculum differences?
You will not just be making a good debate point, you may be opening the eyes and showing the educational system something it has been missing.


Oh,
and please please please stop dodging this......

MY CHALLLANGE (funny answers accepted but serious ones would be appriciated.
SO
Is a policeman who is willing to take a job in inner city Detroit
a). The kind of person we need and admire.
b). Someone who should be fired in 4 years if he cannot get the crime in his precinct to the national average.
c.) Someone who sholuld hold off until the private sector takes over policing the area because the job will be easier to do then.
d). A damned fool who should know better than to take the job.
(if you answer d please tell me what you think we should do about policing the target area)
Is a teacher who is willing to take a job in inner city Detroit
a). The kind of person we need and admire.
b). Someone who should be fired in 4 years if he cannot get the test scores in his school to the national average.
c.) Someone who sholuld hold off until the private sector takes over the school because the job will be easier to do then.
d). A damned fool who should know better than to take the job.
(if you answer d please tell me what you think we should do about educating the target population).

[Osborn F Enready]

Have to take my dad to get his flu shot here in couple mins, so I will be back to answer in entirety, including your specific questions.

[Suburbanite]

IF the failings are on the teachers, then they need to be fired. I think that no matter where a teacher works they should be reviews ever few years. If they suck, gone. If not though, then let them stay, regardless of location. When closing a school it is more a lay-off than a firing, which is horrible for the teachers nonetheless surely, but a lot different then just blaming them individually.

And Watts is not part of LA city.

[m5lange1]

And Watts is not part of LA city.

Point of referrence only.

Suburbanite I think that no matter where a teacher works they should be reviews ever few years

They are. Every two years is the current requrement in public schools.

Suburbanite When closing a school it is more a lay-off than a firing

Absolutely untrue. If that were the case I would not have even bothered to start this thread.

This just shows how little most people understand the No Child Left Behind law.

NO Sub. A layoff goes by contract. A layoff goes by seniority or by a district discressionary release( for example any merit polocy that may be in place). A layioff is staff reduction, like if a school closed because of insufficient funds or reduction of student population.

NCLB Law says "Firing". It superseeds district agreements and contracts. It is NOT a staff reduction. The staff is replaced immediately.
These kids do not dissappear.
This is a direct punishment to the people who were teaching in the target school.

Accept my challange.... Don't just state the obvious by saying

If they suck, gone

Because the whole point is, "do they suck?"
If yes then do the cops in ghettos suck?
If so are they gone?

I repeat myself here.
"We are talking about a profession where we desire to acquire good qualified people and we offer the reward of blame, poor pay, and finally termination if they take on the toughest (hardest to fill) positions."

[Suburbanite]

I'll have to look into this a bit more.

[Scribbler1]

[ I repeat myself here.
"We are talking about a profession where we desire to acquire good qualified people and we offer the reward of blame, poor pay, and finally termination if they take on the toughest (hardest to fill) positions." ]

It merits repetition.
I maintain you cannot accurately and fairly grade teachers when society itself as well as the parents are working against them.

A science teacer went to college to teach science. He didn't go to teach reading, morality, hygiene, a work ethic and discipline. And he CERTAINLY didn't get a masters on psychology on the side.