Homosexual Marriage

[SVMc]

Quote by: moustache I dont care what they do, just dont call it marriage.

Why? If churches don't have to recognize civil marraiges, just as the catholic church does not recognize any couple married that is not married by the catholic church, what difference does it make to your religious beliefs if civil secular marriages are extended to homosexual couples?

Or alternatively what is wrong with removing "marriage" from all legal terms and allowing churches to officiate marriages, while the state will grant civil unions to homosexual and heterosexual couples alike.

Why is it in the best interest of society to uphold a differentiation between homosexual and heterosexual partnerships?

[SVMc]

Trixmix,

I guess it's my turn to acclaim "that's absurd"! Discrimination against homosexual has a long history that we can begin to detail if you would like. I'm not chooseing a random group of people who have never faced discrimination and arguing that creating a separate class of them would ipso facto produce a discrimnatory standard.

Quote by: trixmix For example, just because someone is a Mexican, and he or she is called a Mexican...doesn't mean that the whole world is discriminating against that person.

No, but you do have to be careful of how labels are used and perceived in a society. For example, Mexican and Canadian are both nationalist labels. But the two categories have historically been treated very differently. Despite the fact that both Canada and Mexico have immigration to the US for work visas, Canadians have historically been received and easily integrated into US society, while there is an ongoing sterotype of the Mexican fence climber sneaking into the US and steeling the jobs. So because of a social perception of what it meas to be labeled "Mexican", that label is treated differently in US society than "Canadian". As US popular opinion turned against Mexicans it became increasingly hard for Mexicans to gain access to the US or to secure employment in the US, while at the same time Canadians share the longest undefended boarder with the US and have many joint industry and economic job creation strategies.

Likewise calling someone "Black" is just a label and in and of itself does no harm, however taken in context it can do a lot of harm. For instance many studies have shown that the continued news broacasting of "the suspect is a black man..." dramatically increased social stigma around black males. Likewise the word "nigger" is just a word, however it has a long deroguatory history. One interesting phenomna is how the hip-hop community is reclaiming the word "nigger" as a cultural "brother", in a sense re-valuing the word in a positive sense. Yet, if you hear a southern white male with a bed sheet over his head refer to someone as "that nigger" you would hardly think he was trying to solicit brotherly friendly sentiments.

So homosexuality while it has existed all through humanity and has at times been accepted, has for the past few hundred years been condemed. Therefore creating legal discrimination, or a separate but equal term for homosexual marraiges from heterosexual marraiges props up discrimnatory actions and standards towards homosexual people.

[trixmix]

Quote by: tripimollee When your daughter comes home perplexed about why a boy in her class has 2 fathers, you should do your duty as a parent and give her an answer that not only educates her, but allows her to have an open mind about the world. I have 2 aunts who have not been through a commitment ceremony yet, but they have bought a house together and have 2 beautiful children, a boy and a girl, via artificial insemination. My aunt Lisa is the mother of both, and my aunts have been together for over a decade now. They are law abiding citizens, they pay their taxes, they are active in their community, and they are wonderful parents. But are you going to deny them the pursuit of happiness and make them keep their lifestyle choice a secret just because you personally don't agree with it and are sick of hearing about it? If our leaders always ruled in favor of their own comfort and convenience, we would not have a democracy. I'm not quite sure what we would have, and quite frankly I'm scared to think of it. So when your daughter asks, think long and hard and give her an answer you'd feel comfortable with as if that little boy was in the room. The issue is going to come up, time and again. As a parent, you shoud already have thought about that.

Well, thank the good Lord that it didn't come up, yet...I think I have been lucky, because I am able to really keep things away from my life that I don't want to look at...As an example...I hate cockroaches...HATE them!!! If I see one, it's not a pretty picture...The amount of times I run into one of them, are really few and far between...compared to the rate that I hear about other people encountering them...so, good for me...the less I have to see the better. My daughter is almost 14, and now understands a little bit about homosexuality and has already formed her opinions and her desires and was able to do so without any 'over the top' influence or blatant expression. Did I let her watch Will & Grace on TV when she was growing up? No. But, on the same token, is her head in the sand, and clueless about it? No.

Now, knock on wood...because my son is 16 months old...and he will be going thru his impressionable youth stage pretty quick here. Let's hope that I don't encounter the problem so that I don't have to explain it to him. As a parent, I have thought about it, and that is what I have come up with...As a parent, I am not obliged, or morally obligated, in any way, to introduce homosexuality to my children...

[SVMc]

Quote by: tripimollee When your daughter comes home perplexed about why a boy in her class has 2 fathers...think long and hard and give her an answer you'd feel comfortable with as if that little boy was in the room. The issue is going to come up, time and again. As a parent, you shoud already have thought about that. Quote by: trixmix I think I have been lucky, because I am able to really keep things away from my life that I don't want to look at...As an example...I hate cockroaches...HATE them!!!...The amount of times I run into one of them, are really few and far between...compared to the rate that I hear about other people encountering them...so, good for me...the less I have to see the better.

Wow, I guess my first question is why did an analogy about how much you hate cockroaches pop into your head when discussing how you would or would not address the subject of homosexuality with your children?

Do you typically compare homosexual people to cockroaches? If not, why did you feel it was appropriate to make the comparison here? If you did know more homosexual people as your co-workers, neighbours and friends do you think you would have jumped to the cockroach analogy so readily?

Quote by: trixmix Let's hope that I don't encounter the problem so that I don't have to explain it to him. As a parent, I have thought about it, and that is what I have come up with...

There's a saying that goes:

Ignorance Breeds Intollerance

Hoping that your child remains ignorant of homosexuality and homosexual lifestyles will only make it more likely that your child will fear homosexuality. Now, perhaps this is what you want, but why? What if your child turns out to be homosexual? Probably a fear for you, but would you love him less? Would you want him to be afraid to tell you? Would you want him to be able to be happy with a partner of his choice?

Alternatively what if your child's ignorance of homosexuality causes him to feel at ease with calling another boy at school "fag" and what if his group of friends find it "cool" to beat up "fags". Do you condone that? How to you tell him that violence is wrong? That a "fag" has as much rights to freedom as he does? Or do you not?

Quote by: trixmix As a parent, I am not obliged, or morally obligated, in any way, to introduce homosexuality to my children...

You are not morally obliged to do anything that does not fall within your own personal moral set. As such you do not have to feel morally obliged to introduce homosexuality to your child as a concept. But what do you do if he introduces it to you? What does your ignorance and intollerance tell your child?

[trixmix]

Quote by: SVMc Trixmix, I guess it's my turn to acclaim "that's absurd"! Discrimination against homosexual has a long history that we can begin to detail if you would like. I'm not chooseing a random group of people who have never faced discrimination and arguing that creating a separate class of them would ipso facto produce a discrimnatory standard.

I must say, great usage of the 'that's absurd' phrase!

Quote by: SVMc No, but you do have to be careful of how labels are used and perceived in a society. For example, Mexican and Canadian are both nationalist labels. But the two categories have historically been treated very differently. Despite the fact that both Canada and Mexico have immigration to the US for work visas, Canadians have historically been received and easily integrated into US society, while there is an ongoing sterotype of the Mexican fence climber sneaking into the US and steeling the jobs. So because of a social perception of what it meas to be labeled "Mexican", that label is treated differently in US society than "Canadian". As US popular opinion turned against Mexicans it became increasingly hard for Mexicans to gain access to the US or to secure employment in the US, while at the same time Canadians share the longest undefended boarder with the US and have many joint industry and economic job creation strategies.

I beg to differ with you, Mexican's didn't happenstance on that stereotype innocently...there is a reason they are considered to be 'fence climbers' haven't you seen them yourself or on the news, doing just that? Aren't we constantly finding truckloads of them sneaking...literally sneaking across the border? Crouched up in behind dashboards, disguised as seats in the cars...2 or three fit snugly in the trunk of a car...? Hmm, do you think all of the ones that sneak over, head right on over to the immigration office and request a visa to work? And do you think it's fair if you lose your job and remain unable to find a job, yet, someone named Pablo from Mexico, traveled by underground tunnel, to USA...is here illegally working...living six or seven families to a household...so basically living dirt cheaply here, while he sends 1/2 of his money to Mexico...to care for his wife and family in Mexico? Do you think that's fair to us, the true American citizens?

Quote by: SVMc Likewise calling someone "Black" is just a label and in and of itself does no harm, however taken in context it can do a lot of harm. For instance many studies have shown that the continued news broacasting of "the suspect is a black man..." dramatically increased social stigma around black males. Likewise the word "nigger" is just a word, however it has a long deroguatory history. One interesting phenomna is how the hip-hop community is reclaiming the word "nigger" as a cultural "brother", in a sense re-valuing the word in a positive sense. Yet, if you hear a southern white male with a bed sheet over his head refer to someone as "that nigger" you would hardly think he was trying to solicit brotherly friendly sentiments.

No, kidding...that's a little unfair...that we can't use the term and they can...But, let's not get started on them, that's a whole new topic...because blacks or shall I say, african americans-are the worst when it comes to the "making themselves stand out, then wondering why everyone notices them as different" mentality.

Quote by: SVMc So homosexuality while it has existed all through humanity and has at times been accepted, has for the past few hundred years been condemed. Therefore creating legal discrimination, or a separate but equal term for homosexual marraiges from heterosexual marraiges props up discrimnatory actions and standards towards homosexual people.

C'mon now, get out the violins...
They are NOT being condemned...far from it...do you think we'd have shows on tv focused on gays, or allow them to be as prominate as they are in society...if they were condemned, and not treated as human beings?

[Milton Bradley]

It should be clear by now that there is more than one school of thought about gays in America.


Some people are virulently anti-gay, and if you cannot admit that, then I'm affraid you are wearing some rose colored glasses.

[trixmix]

Quote by: SVMc Wow, I guess my first question is why did an analogy about how much you hate cockroaches pop into your head when discussing how you would or would not address the subject of homosexuality with your children? Do you typically compare homosexual people to cockroaches? If not, why did you feel it was appropriate to make the comparison here? If you did know more homosexual people as your co-workers, neighbours and friends do you think you would have jumped to the cockroach analogy so readily? There's a saying that goes: Hoping that your child remains ignorant of homosexuality and homosexual lifestyles will only make it more likely that your child will fear homosexuality. Now, perhaps this is what you want, but why? What if your child turns out to be homosexual? Probably a fear for you, but would you love him less? Would you want him to be afraid to tell you? Would you want him to be able to be happy with a partner of his choice? Alternatively what if your child's ignorance of homosexuality causes him to feel at ease with calling another boy at school "fag" and what if his group of friends find it "cool" to beat up "fags". Do you condone that? How to you tell him that violence is wrong? That a "fag" has as much rights to freedom as he does? Or do you not? You are not morally obliged to do anything that does not fall within your own personal moral set. As such you do not have to feel morally obliged to introduce homosexuality to your child as a concept. But what do you do if he introduces it to you? What does your ignorance and intollerance tell your child?

Hahaha! I hate to say it, but...I did that on purpose, I wanted to see how quickly someone would pop off & say that I was comparing gays to cockroaches!!! It took me 30 seconds to come up with that analogy...purposefully done to prove that point...If I would have used an analogy of how bad I hate earthquakes...and I don't like them in my life, thus I have gotten lucky because, I haven't had to encounter too many earthquakes in my life...Would you have noticed the analogy, and taken offense to the comparison? And would you have assumed that I am trying to insinuate that gays were what, 'shaking up the earth'?

[trixmix]

Quote by: Milton Bradley It should be clear by now that there is more than one school of thought about gays in America. Some people are virulently anti-gay, and if you cannot admit that, then I'm affraid you are wearing some rose colored glasses.

Well, If you want to classify it as so 'black & white'...'hate & nonhate'...then fine...but just know that I don't have that kind of animosity towards them...I don't agree with it, nor do I chose to smear the concept all over my kids. BUT, on the same token, I am not 'virulently' anti-gay...I can be tolerant and accepting without joining their fan club...and marching for them. I don't care for certain kinds of music, let's name one, R & B...does that make me a discriminating music hater? No, I can respect the fact that R & B music is out there...I can appreciate R & B musicians as performers, if they are talented...But do I have to buy R & B, and run around saying that I love it, when I don't...and make sure my kids hear it, even if they don't want to? No...

Do I have to run around saying that 'Gay is great', and sit and watch them in action...as I smile and say 'awww look at them'?...No, as an American...I thought I was allowed choices too.

[tripimollee]

Quote by: trixmix Well, If you want to classify it as so 'black & white'...'hate & nonhate'...then fine...but just know that I don't have that kind of animosity towards them...I don't agree with it, nor do I chose to smear the concept all over my kids. BUT, on the same token, I am not 'virulently' anti-gay...I can be tolerant and accepting without joining their fan club...and marching for them. I don't care for certain kinds of music, let's name one, R & B...does that make me a discriminating music hater? No, I can respect the fact that R & B music is out there...I can appreciate R & B musicians as performers, if they are talented...But do I have to buy R & B, and run around saying that I love it, when I don't...and make sure my kids hear it, even if they don't want to? No... Do I have to run around saying that 'Gay is great', and sit and watch them in action...as I smile and say 'awww look at them'?...No, as an American...I thought I was allowed choices too.

As an American, you ARE allowed choices. That means your fellow gay Americans are allowed choices too. So if they want to call their civil unions marriage, who are you to take away their choice? You don't have to run around promoting gays, you don't even have to look at them. Just live your life and let them live theirs, and if they want to call it marriage, SO WHAT? It's not physically harming you or your family, it's not harrassing you in any way. Live and let live ... freely.

[SVMc]

Quote by: trixmix I must say, great usage of the 'that's absurd' phrase!

Thank you it is one of my favourite words, and I don't get near enough chances to use it. However I think you have done me the honour of providing me with further opportunity.

Quote by: trixmix I beg to differ with you, Mexican's didn't happenstance on that stereotype innocently...

Hit a nerver did I? I think you missed the operational point that I was driving at. You insinuated that simply because separate labels exist for groups of people does not ipso facto produce discrminiation. I moved that it is not the label but how the label is used. For instance Mexian and Canadian are two nationalist labels. While people from Mexico have snuck into the US for a variety of reasons the amount of Mexican's who do represent a relative minority in the Mexican population. However because of negative sterotypes towards Mexicans it has become increasingly harder for Mexicans to gain access to the United States serving to increase the number of Mexicans who (if they want to get into the US) will sneak in. Canadians conversley also have snuck into the US, it's not as widely publicized, perhaps because they are more culturally accepted, or because the nations are both viewed as developed nations, nevertheless what ever the factors because of positive perceptions of Canadians immigration from Canada has been encouraged. Thus the nationalist label of "Canadian" is seldom used as a derogutory remark while "Mexican" is often used in a derogutory context. This is ethnocentrism. Heterosexism is the favouring of heterosexuality over homosexuality.

Quote by: trixmix african americans-are the worst when it comes to the "making themselves stand out, then wondering why everyone notices them as different" mentality.

We could start an entirely new thread disecting what exactly you are implying with this phrase, but again I fear that this is absurdly out of context to the original point. Again we were discussing labels and how the use of labels in a social context can attach negative and positive sterotypes perpetuating discrimination. Your rather coloured and sterotypical assessment of Mexicans and African-American's shows how powerful the media is in perpetuating racial and ethnic discrmination against a class that is separated out. This is why there should be no distincition in law where it is unnecessary. Unnecessary differentiation only serves to "other" a group of people from what is perceived as the social "norm" makeing discrimination socially more acceptable.

Quote by: trixmix C'mon now, get out the violins... They are NOT being condemned...far from it...do you think we'd have shows on tv focused on gays, or allow them to be as prominate as they are in society...if they were condemned, and not treated as human beings?

Well the most obvious form of discrimination is that they are still not allowed to marry a partner of their preferred choice. Furthermore, anti-gay or biased-crimes are not uncommon.

Antigay hate crimes (words or actions that are intended to harm or intimidate individuals because they are lesbian or gay) constitute a serious national problem. In recent surveys, as many as 92% of lesbians and gay men report that they have been the targets of antigay verbal abuse or threats, and as many as 24% report physical attacks because of their sexual orientation. Assaults may have increased in frequency during the last few years, with many incidents now including spoken references to the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) by the assailants. Trends cannot be assessed, however, because most antigay hate crimes are never reported and no comprehensive national surveys of antigay victimization have been conducted. Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D. Source

Quote by: trixmix Hahaha! I hate to say it, but...I did that on purpose, I wanted to see how quickly someone would pop off & say that I was comparing gays to cockroaches!!!

Well you must admit that it is an absurd and offensive analogy to draw, furthermore you freely admit that you drew the analogy with intent. It prepetuates haterd of homosexuality when homosexual acts are compared with acts that have no connection to homosexuality simply for to create a fear factor. To purposefully use what is a commonly "hated" imagery of "cockroaches" in the context of a debate about one grouping of human beings is to intentionally label that group. You cannot claim to be making an innocent observation, the fact that you "hate cockroaches" does not serve to enrich or contribute to a debate on homosexual marriage. Using that analogy simply shows that you think it is acceptable to draw an analogy between cockroaches and a segment of humanity. That, is a biggoted statement.

You also failed to address the points regarding ignorance breeding intolerance. And, why as a parent you feel it is a social good to remain ingnorant about homosexuality and to pass on that ignorance to your child.

Quote by: trixmix Well, If you want to classify it as so 'black & white'...'hate & nonhate'...then fine...but just know that I don't have that kind of animosity towards them...I don't agree with it, nor do I chose to smear the concept all over my kids. BUT, on the same token, I am not 'virulently' anti-gay...I can be tolerant and accepting without joining their fan club...and marching for them. BUT, on the same token, I am not 'virulently' anti-gay...I can be tolerant and accepting without joining their fan club...and marching for them.

And how exactly do you see yourself as tolerant and accepting of gays? No one is asking you to march in gay pride, and no one is accusing you personally of committing a hate crime. However the belief that the "average" American is anti-gay is what makes it easier for hate crimes to continue, and by using language like:

Quote by: trixmix I don't have that kind of animosity towards them...I don't agree with it, nor do I chose to smear the concept all over my kids.

You are demonstrating a certain level of distain towards gay people. Why is that acceptable to you? If you were truly tolerant or even indifferent towards homosexuality it truly would not matter to you if gays were allowed to marry, and you would go about your daily life without being concerned if a gay person was or was not allowed to marry. There's nothing worse than biggoted ideals in the guise of olive branches.

Quote by: trixmix Do I have to run around saying that 'Gay is great', and sit and watch them in action...as I smile and say 'awww look at them'?...No, as an American...I thought I was allowed choices too.

Sure you can have your choices, but why should you have the freedom to choose who someone else can or cannot marry. Shouldn't that be thier choice?

[trixmix]

Quote by: tripimollee As an American, you ARE allowed choices. That means your fellow gay Americans are allowed choices too. So if they want to call their civil unions marriage, who are you to take away their choice? You don't have to run around promoting gays, you don't even have to look at them. Just live your life and let them live theirs, and if they want to call it marriage, SO WHAT? It's not physically harming you or your family, it's not harrassing you in any way. Live and let live ... freely.

No, that is not fair to me...if they are going to form a civil union thats fine & dandy...but to 'say' that they are married, is offensive to me, because they are taking the word, and distorting it...it takes away from the fact that a marriage is a union between a man and a woman...They cant just take a word & change the meaning of it...

Now it's not like I am suggesting that we want them to be classified as something else, other than normal...or criticizing them in any way...All I am saying...is don't change our terminology...Which word in the english language shall we alter the meaning of next? They already took one word...'Gay' now they want to ruin the meaning of 'marriage' too?

[tipper 11]

Quote by: trixmix No, that is not fair to me...if they are going to form a civil union thats fine & dandy...but to 'say' that they are married, is offensive to me, because they are taking the word, and distorting it...it takes away from the fact that a marriage is a union between a man and a woman...They cant just take a word & change the meaning of it... Now it's not like I am suggesting that we want them to be classified as something else, other than normal...or criticizing them in any way...All I am saying...is don't change our terminology...Which word in the english language shall we alter the meaning of next? They already took one word...'Gay' now they want to ruin the meaning of 'marriage' too?

I agree. Marriage is something you do in a church. The gays asking the government is asking them to make it law that churches perform the ceremony. This can't be done under the first Amendment just like the church can't stop gay civil union based on the words in the Bible. Any state that recognizes civil unions recognizes "marriages" as long as the church they get married in recognizes it. Catholics won't marry just any man or any woman in their churches until the non-Catholic party takes classes. Churches are allowed to discriminate. That's the way it should be. Otherwise the bygamists and any other religious marriage practices would have their way, if the court ruled on Gay marriage.

[tipper 11]

Besides Homosexuality is a birth defect. You wouldn't want the DMV to start issuing drivers licenses to the blind just to avoid discriminating against the disabled would you?

[tipper 11]

I'm married, by a woman who worked in the court house named Tanna White. But, in the eyes of some radical religious folks I'm not married because it wasn't performed in a church. But, I say screw what people say, that don't know my situation. I get to file joint on my tax returns.
Unless your really a religious person getting married in a church is hypocritical and usually end up in divorce anyway.

[tripimollee]

Quote by: trixmix No, that is not fair to me...if they are going to form a civil union thats fine & dandy...but to 'say' that they are married, is offensive to me, because they are taking the word, and distorting it...it takes away from the fact that a marriage is a union between a man and a woman...They cant just take a word & change the meaning of it... Now it's not like I am suggesting that we want them to be classified as something else, other than normal...or criticizing them in any way...All I am saying...is don't change our terminology...Which word in the english language shall we alter the meaning of next? They already took one word...'Gay' now they want to ruin the meaning of 'marriage' too?

It is not a fact that marriage is a union between a man and a woman, because everyone has different views on it. Some people interpret it biblically, and they would say yes, it's between a man and a woman. Some people are not religious, however, and say that it is merely between 2 people, no matter the gender(s). It is also not about changing the meaning of words, it is about interpreting them. The dictionary is not always the final source for meaning. Time moves on, people change, things change, and sometimes that includes words, if, in fact, the meaning would be changed to accompany gay rights. And pray tell how it is not fair to you? Does it detract from your marriage that two people of the same gender may also be married? I should certainly hope not, as that wouldn't seem like a very good marriage to me!

[tripimollee]

Quote by: patrioticpspal Besides Homosexuality is a birth defect. You wouldn't want the DMV to start issuing drivers licenses to the blind just to avoid discriminating against the disabled would you?

Homosexuality is NOT a birth defect. That implies something negative. It is merely different. I found that comment quite irritating, I must say.

[tipper 11]

The Parable of the Rich Fool
13Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?”


I don't care how it works out. If either side wants to drag God into it, I'm against that.

[SVMc]

Quote by: patrioticpspal I agree. Marriage is something you do in a church... Besides Homosexuality is a birth defect. You wouldn't want the DMV to start issuing drivers licenses to the blind just to avoid discriminating against the disabled would you?... I don't care how it works out. If either side wants to drag God into it, I'm against that.

Well I for one am more than a little confused as to what exactly your argument is.

So just a few quick comments.

By your first and last lines I will assume that you agree with the camp that thinks that if it is the word "marriage" that religious institutions are concerned with then the term "marriage" can be forfited to the chruches to be administered in the same fashion as baptisms or confirmations. Meanwhile all civil unions can be grated by the governement taking the former place of "marriage" in legal terminology and will be granted equally to homosexual and heterosexual couples alike.

Claiming that homosexuality as a birth defect is ignorant and offensive. Homosexuality does not preclude an individual from being able to function in society as a fully contributing member any more than being black, or blonde or hindu does.

Seeing has a lot to do with the ability to drive, sexual orientation does not determine your ability to care for another person in a consensual adult relationship.

[Lilith]

Getting married in a church? that's what some deem a *true* marriage?

Christ Almighty!

Has Homosexuality ever been proven as a birth defect? Some folk keep calling it that, I find that a bogus statement myself. But then again, homosexuality has never bothered me one bit.