Homosexual Marriage

[italiangm]

Quote by: yourmaster For example, how the hell am I meant to tell my parents of my sexual orientation, ask any gay person and they'll tell you of the fear of retribution and disownment which is a very real prospect.

I'm not buying this argument. I hear more about positive interactions with parents when their child reveals their sexual orientation. In fact, many parents inform their child they already knew, and were wondering when the child would come to the same conclusion and out themselves.

Quote by: yourmaster Even short of this there is more likely then not going to be hostilities or problems in the relationship, all swell for emotional development. Whoever is to blame, homosexuality with it brings waves of problems with it, especially to the children growing up affiliated to it, either because they are homosexual or are close to one.

In the US, your gloom and doom victim scenario is no longer as prevalent as it once was.

One thing I would like to see improved is a parent's ability to open a dialog about dating someone of the appropriate orientation/gender/sex. That dialog should occur at whatever age they'd hold a similar conversation with their hetero children.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: yourmaster For example, how the hell am I meant to tell my parents of my sexual orientation, ask any gay person and they'll tell you of the fear of retribution and disownment which is a very real prospect. Even short of this there is more likely then not going to be hostilities or problems in the relationship, all swell for emotional development. Whoever is to blame, homosexuality with it brings waves of problems with it, especially to the children growing up affiliated to it, either because they are homosexual or are close to one.

And none of that is of their making, it is because of false propaganda about homosexuals.
I have no sympathy for any parents who allow bullshit like that to interfere with their relationship with their child. My advise to them is suck it up and get a life.
They should realize that once a child becomes an adult then it is no longer there say on how the child lives their life.
Whoever is to blame is people like yourself who maintain an attitude that homosexuality is wrong without giving any sound reasoning for doing so.

[Matt W]

Quote by: SoylentGreen And none of that is of their making, it is because of false propaganda about homosexuals. I have no sympathy for any parents who allow bullshit like that to interfere with their relationship with their child. My advise to them is suck it up and get a life. They should realize that once a child becomes an adult then it is no longer there say on how the child lives their life. Whoever is to blame is people like yourself who maintain an attitude that homosexuality is wrong without giving any sound reasoning for doing so.

Ahem.

Quote by: yourmaster Just fyi I'm gay and all for gay marriage so please don't take this as me being a bigot or anything.

SoylentGreen, this is not about the individuals concerned, but about the aruguments. If you can't debate this point without attacking other members, walk away. Clear?

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Tycoon]

I call for universal reductions in rights that would be relieved when the couple raises children, so parental heterosexual couples would be the same as they are now. Homosexual adoption is the point here, I disagree with homosexual adoption, I respect you are not and it seems there's little I can do to change that, but essentially if homosexuals cannot adopt then they are of lesser potential rights to heterosexuals of their own choice to not procreate heterosexuality, the option remains to live with full rights, privellages, etc. Though very few will choose it there is nothing we can do about that. This leads onto the other point about possibilities of eliminating homosexuality altogether, which I would still seem to be beneficial, see post above.

As I have already said before, this really doesn't have much to do with homosexual marriage.

If you absolutely must bring this up again...

Whether or not abortion remains legal, homosexual couples who don't have children should get exactly the same rights as heterosexual couples who don't have children. Homosexual couples who do have children should get exactly the same rights as heterosexual couples who do have children.

Regardless of whether or not homosexual couples should be allowed to have children. And if you want to discuss that, then take it to a new thread. Not here.

I'm not buying this argument. I hear more about positive interactions with parents when their child reveals their sexual orientation. In fact, many parents inform their child they already knew, and were wondering when the child would come to the same conclusion and out themselves.

Well, obviously, you don't know much on the subject. 26% of children and teenagers who come out to their parents are immediately kicked out of the house and disowned. And that's the extreme, there are still lots of parents who build up a strong resentment towards their gay child, though they don't act in the extreme.

[italiangm]

Quote by: Tycoon Well, obviously, you don't know much on the subject. 26% of children and teenagers who come out to their parents are immediately kicked out of the house and disowned. And that's the extreme, there are still lots of parents who build up a strong resentment towards their gay child, though they don't act in the extreme.

As a 54 year old gay man, I'm intimately familiar with the subject. I've had the opportunity to actually observe the change in response to offspring coming out to their families over that time.

And while I agree *any* percentage of rejection is too high, it's a great deal lower today than when I came out over 35 years ago. This is why I indicated "I hear more about positive interactions with parents when their child reveals their sexual orientation."

I was aware of these interactions before Stonewall occurred or statistical data on family rejection and hate crimes were collected.

[yourmaster]

Aside from the debate for one second, the fact that there is a chance that the parents may be so homophobic they would disown the child is enough, no matter how low the fact that young homosexuals are raised with the fear that they may be disowned or just not treated the same is enough to stunt emotional development.

[italiangm]

Quote by: yourmaster Aside from the debate for one second, the fact that there is a chance that the parents may be so homophobic they would disown the child is enough, no matter how low the fact that young homosexuals are raised with the fear that they may be disowned or just not treated the same is enough to stunt emotional development.

I disagree. There are resources in many cities that support homeless/abandoned homosexual kids.

Many of these programs produce young adults that are emotionally stronger and more well-adjusted than their hetero counterparts. I know first hand because I used to volunteer for one of those programs in Dallas. Perhaps the situation is different where you live.

[yourmaster]

Quote by: italiangm I disagree. There are resources in many cities that support homeless/abandoned homosexual kids. Many of these programs produce young adults that are emotionally stronger and more well-adjusted than their hetero counterparts. I know first hand because I used to volunteer for one of those programs in Dallas. Perhaps the situation is different where you live.

It is because what you have just described is completely new to me, I never even knew any such organization existed, so no there is nothing like that where I am.
As for emotionally stronger I disagree, the only way I can see that happening is in misinterpreting emotionally stronger and increased emotional defence, i.e: not letting in your emotions.

[Tycoon]

As a 54 year old gay man, I'm intimately familiar with the subject. I've had the opportunity to actually observe the change in response to offspring coming out to their families over that time. And while I agree *any* percentage of rejection is too high, it's a great deal lower today than when I came out over 35 years ago. This is why I indicated "I hear more about positive interactions with parents when their child reveals their sexual orientation." I was aware of these interactions before Stonewall occurred or statistical data on family rejection and hate crimes were collected.

While you might have personally observed the change in a couple families, you are very, very wrong statistically. And I trust the statistics more. If 26% alone are immediately kicked out, then how many do you think are really accepted by their parents?

I disagree. There are resources in many cities that support homeless/abandoned homosexual kids.

Resources perhaps, but well set up programs are really only found in major cities.

Many of these programs produce young adults that are emotionally stronger and more well-adjusted than their hetero counterparts. I know first hand because I used to volunteer for one of those programs in Dallas. Perhaps the situation is different where you live.

You say you've seen these programs help young abandoned teenagers become fine adults, and you have no statistic to back that up. If a few programs produce a few well-adjusted adults, how many do you think fail to do that? And how many teenagers do you think even find one of these programs?

[italiangm]

Quote by: Tycoon While you might have personally observed the change in a couple families, you are very, very wrong statistically. And I trust the statistics more. If 26% alone are immediately kicked out, then how many do you think are really accepted by their parents?

So, your entire argument is based on statistics that exist now, but weren't collected before, so no comparison can be made. Do I have that right?

Do you really think my assertion is based on observing "a couple of families" over 5 decades?

Quote by: Tycoon Resources perhaps, but well set up programs are really only found in major cities.

Even if that were true, which it is not, improvements have still occurred.

Quote by: Tycoon You say you've seen these programs help young abandoned teenagers become fine adults, and you have no statistic to back that up. If a few programs produce a few well-adjusted adults, how many do you think fail to do that? And how many teenagers do you think even find one of these programs?

Again, I have observed the change over 54 years and directly participated in one program over 8 years. If your entire argument is based on data that can't be directly compared due to the lack of collection, then there's no sense debating the issue. I can't pull data out of thin air, but I do have empirical evidence that significant positive changes have occurred. It's not my problem if you can't/won't acknowledge this because the statistics don't exist.

[Tycoon]

So, your entire argument is based on statistics that exist now, but weren't collected before, so no comparison can be made. Do I have that right? Do you really think my assertion is based on observing "a couple of families" over 5 decades?

I don't even know what argument you're trying to make. This has absolutely nothing to do with gay marriage.

And not to mention, yes, your assertion is based off of unsubstantiated personal experience. I'd rather follow studies and statistics.

[Tycoon]

Even if that were true, which it is not, improvements have still occurred.

I live an hour from Los Angeles, and it took me three weeks to find any youth LGBT meeting near me, and even then it was still an hour away. If you really think there are a lot of programs outside major cities you're severely mistaken.

Again, I have observed the change over 54 years and directly participated in one program over 8 years. If your entire argument is based on data that can't be directly compared due to the lack of collection, then there's no sense debating the issue. I can't pull data out of thin air, but I do have empirical evidence that significant positive changes have occurred. It's not my problem if you can't/won't acknowledge this because the statistics don't exist.

I have heard many more problems than improvements. Last month alone a speaker came to my school, and talked about how he came out to his family at age thirteen, and was immediately kicked out to live out of cardboard boxes and trash cans for the next four years of his life.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Tycoon I live an hour from Los Angeles, and it took me three weeks to find any youth LGBT meeting near me, and even then it was still an hour away. If you really think there are a lot of programs outside major cities you're severely mistaken. I have heard many more problems than improvements. Last month alone a speaker came to my school, and talked about how he came out to his family at age thirteen, and was immediately kicked out to live out of cardboard boxes and trash cans for the next four years of his life.

I thought he was saying things in general are getting better for gays. I have to agree. It's a slow process, but it's happening. It is a major change in the way people think, so it takes time.

Most young people today aren't anti-gay, so this influence will radically change parenting in the future for many, many gay kids.

Personally, I think you have to try to feel the parents out. If they are homophobes and you should know this, don't tell 'em. This will keep you nestled in your bed till you can leave on your own. Kids have been keeping things from the parents since time began. It's a pretty natural thing.

[Tycoon]

First of all, I still don't know where this train of thought is going and how it has anything to do with gay marriage.

I thought he was saying things in general are getting better for gays. I have to agree. It's a slow process, but it's happening. It is a major change in the way people think, so it takes time.

I admit that I don't know how things were for gays in the past. I am only fifteen, and all I've seen are the problems of today, and those problems need fixing.

Most young people today aren't anti-gay, so this influence will radically change parenting in the future for many, many gay kids.

Maybe. The word gay is used a lot at high school, and not in a good way, but I suppose that doesn't necessarily make the kids who use it homophobes.

Personally, I think you have to try to feel the parents out. If they are homophobes and you should know this, don't tell 'em. This will keep you nestled in your bed till you can leave on your own. Kids have been keeping things from the parents since time began. It's a pretty natural thing.

That's the first bit of advice I would give any kid preparing to come out to his/her parents. The problem is, you shouldn't have to worry about it, and you shouldn't have to keep it from your parents.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I am wondering how the volconvo community references this debate. It seems that America, by and large, doesn't favor the concept. I think there is a very wide acceptance of homos generally in the US. They get a few swats, but overall I don't think most Americans want them treated as pariahs. Euros are likely even more tolerant. But allowing a homosexual union to labeled "marriage" apparently goes against the grain. All eleven states where the question was presented on 11/2/2004 voted to disallow homosexual marriage. Where do you stand?

I'm an American, and I really do not care about a person's sexuality. It's not a choice, but rather a biological thing . . .

[yourmaster]

Quote by: Tycoon Maybe. The word gay is used a lot at high school, and not in a good way, but I suppose that doesn't necessarily make the kids who use it homophobes.

Far from it, the word gay has just become a word that means lame, when you confront someone about the use of the word gay they'll 99/100 times say that they just meant lame with no reference to homosexuality.
Try it yourself, next time someone says something like, "that's so gay" ask them how "that" is homosexual. They won't even be thinking about homosexuality. It's like how gay used to mean happy, now it means homosexual and is moving on toward meaning lame.

Quote by: Tycoon That's the first bit of advice I would give any kid preparing to come out to his/her parents. The problem is, you shouldn't have to worry about it, and you shouldn't have to keep it from your parents.

No, you shouldn't have to keep it from your parents, something so fundemental to emotional development ought to be shared with the parents.

[Night]

Quote by: italiangm I'm not buying this argument. I hear more about positive interactions with parents when their child reveals their sexual orientation. In fact, many parents inform their child they already knew, and were wondering when the child would come to the same conclusion and out themselves.

You obviously don't know many homosexuals. Many of my gay friends were kicked out of their houses for being gay. I can assure you that not everything is fine and dandy, coming out is very difficult for most teens.

Quote by: italiangm In the US, your gloom and doom victim scenario is no longer as prevalent as it once was.

It has dropped from around 90% to about 20% (my own personal estimates). But that is still a large and unacceptable figure.

Quote by: italiangm One thing I would like to see improved is a parent's ability to open a dialog about dating someone of the appropriate orientation/gender/sex. That dialog should occur at whatever age they'd hold a similar conversation with their hetero children.

What is the "appropriate" gender? As if being gay is inappropriate? Tell that to our natural gay penguin friends. Or Leonardo da Vinci. Homosexuality is not new and it is definitely not unnatural.

[italiangm]

Quote by: Night You obviously don't know many homosexuals. Many of my gay friends were kicked out of their houses for being gay. I can assure you that not everything is fine and dandy, coming out is very difficult for most teens.

After living on this blue marble as a gay man for 54 years, rest assured I know *many* homosexuals.

No one says the problem disappeared. With the benefit of many years observation, my point was that the problem is significantly less than from when I was a gay teen.

Quote by: Night It has dropped from around 90% to about 20% (my own personal estimates). But that is still a large and unacceptable figure.

No argument there.

Quote by: Night What is the "appropriate" gender? As if being gay is inappropriate? Tell that to our natural gay penguin friends. Or Leonardo da Vinci. Homosexuality is not new and it is definitely not unnatural.

"Appropriate gender" speaks to the fact that lesbian and transgendered teens exist, too. Remember them?

[GloriousCause]

The government shouldn't be marrying anyone. Government "marriage" is a bad relic of a time when wives were traded off like so much cattle. Marriage should be a private, religious institution, and it should be up to each religion to define who qualifies for it.

But the idea of "civil unions" or government-enforced domestic stability arrangements, is a popular one that should remain, we just shouldn't call it marriage. Gay or straight, you can have a civil union. In fact, civil unions should be offered to more than just romantic couples. My father-in-law once lived in a house with his mother, his sister, and my wife and her brother. My father-in-law and his mother shared a checking account, shared the house, and dealt with just about all the finances between them. They should be afforded the same domestic stability benefits that a romantic couple can undertake.

[Tycoon]

Try it yourself, next time someone says something like, "that's so gay" ask them how "that" is homosexual. They won't even be thinking about homosexuality. It's like how gay used to mean happy, now it means homosexual and is moving on toward meaning lame.

That just leads to them accusing me of being gay, and as I'm not ready to come out at school yet, that's like a slap in the face.